New Cumorah Thread

[Paul Osborne]

Sunday Morning Session, April 6, 1980

Introduction to the Proclamation

President Spencer W. Kimball

"From the soil of Cumorah’s Hill, a few miles to the west of here, Joseph obtained from the angel Moroni the records of a people who anciently inhabited this land"

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Dude. It wouldn't matter what quote, signed statement, videotaped-recording-from-Jospeh Smith-himself-piece-of-revelation/declaration we gave SRM. SRM is a Buffet Mormon. He simply picks and chooses what he likes, and discards the rest. He considers the Restaurant the vehicle of Truth...not the food.

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

I suppose that SRM and many other Mormons are just trying to work their way through some of the difficulties that surround this matter and the critics such as yourself seem to think the lack of evidence must force another hand.

Latter-day Saints need not bend to the idea that a lack of evidence proves there never was evidence in the first place. Neither do the critics need to bend to the idea that evidence proves the Church is true. One receives a testimony from the Spirit and physical evidence is only a tangible object that cannot convince anyone that the Church is true like the Spirit can. God has set this whole thing up so that faith is the rule and not evidence.

How about you think back on how you felt when you first found out the Church was true? If you had felt that way every day of your life would you have quit the Church? And, what kind of test would that have been? You gave up on Joseph Smith! How about you reconsider that these matters of controversy are only a test to try the hearts of the saints and see if the Mormon Holy Ghost can work in you again? You have nothing to loose.

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 23 2004, 08:15 PM

Antishock,

I suppose that SRM and many other Mormons are just trying to work their way through some of the difficulties that surround this matter and the critics such as yourself seem to think the lack of evidence must force another hand.

Latter-day Saints need not bend to the idea that a lack of evidence proves there never was evidence in the first place. Neither do the critics need to bend to the idea that evidence proves the Church is true. One receives a testimony from the Spirit and physical evidence is only a tangible object that cannot convince anyone that the Church is true like the Spirit can. God has set this whole thing up so that faith is the rule and not evidence.

How about you think back on how you felt when you first found out the Church was true? If you had felt that way every day of your life would you have quit the Church? And, what kind of test would that have been? You gave up on Joseph Smith! How about you reconsider that these matters of controversy are only a test to try the hearts of the saints and see if the Mormon Holy Ghost can work in you again? You have nothing to loose.

Paul O

It's lose. Not loose. I wouldn't make an issue of it, but it's a reoccurring thing.

No, Paul, I don't think I'll close my eyes anymore. I think I've read enough, met enough people, seen enough television, bought enough goods and services, talked to enough people, posted enough on the internet, and listened to enough opinions to come to the conclusion that when something is full of pooh, I don't need to hope that it's not. The adult in me realizes that being a child is not a good way to go through life. I can close my eyes and wish upon a star that Santa is real, that Jospeh Smith was not a pervaricator of fables and fantastical amalgamations of xtianity, judaism, and masonry, that the Buffalo Bills will actually win a Super Bowl, and that Howard Dean will actually get the Democratic Party's nomination...no, Paul, I don't think I'll go down that path again. Self-imposed delusion is sad. No mas, no gracias.

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

I’m not counting you out altogether, just yet. The fact that you are here conversing with us poor Mormons means you still have interests to Mormonism to whatever degree whether positive or negative-- and I still think you might turn and come back. I’m not going to pray for you because I don’t have the energy so you’re on your own-- but I think there really is a chance you might come back even though you talk tough on the Internet. Just remember how you felt when you first found out the Church was true and what followed. Go back and relive those moments and see if it is of any worth in your heart. How did you feel?

Paul O

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 23 2004, 10:19 PM

Antishock,

I’m not counting you out altogether, just yet....

Paul O

LOL....Paul...you aren't counting him out...he is counting himself out. That is what agency is all about....we can be our own worst enemy.

[Paul Osborne]

Peace,

Yeah. But it ain’t over until it’s over. Now is the day of repentence and so long as Antishock is alive he can choose to come back although he probably won’t. We still have to have hope. B)

Paul O

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 23 2004, 10:52 PM

Peace,

Yeah. But it ain’t over until it’s over. Now is the day of repentence and so long as Antishock is alive he can choose to come back although he probably won’t. We still have to have hope.  B)

Paul O

Actually he is the one who needs to have hope...

Moroni 7:

40 And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning hope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope?

41 And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.

42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.

43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.

44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.

The mantle of responsibility for a man's choices cannot be held by two people at once.

He must hold his own responsibility for these things.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 23 2004, 10:19 PM

Antishock,

I’m not counting you out altogether, just yet. The fact that you are here conversing with us poor Mormons means you still have interests to Mormonism to whatever degree whether positive or negative-- and I still think you might turn and come back. I’m not going to pray for you because I don’t have the energy so you’re on your own-- but I think there really is a chance you might come back even though you talk tough on the Internet. Just remember how you felt when you first found out the Church was true and what followed. Go back and relive those moments and see if it is of any worth in your heart. How did you feel?

Paul O

I actually felt disturbed on quite a few occasions when praying and pondering about the Church. My "breakthrough" occurred at a "youth camp". We were told to go off and pray by ourselves, after reading a letter from our parents, about the BoM. The letter opened up with my mom saying how much she loved me and how much she wanted me to know that the Church was True. Our family had been going through a trying time, and upon hearing how much she loved me I was really moved, and thus I wanted to please her. I wanted to feel that the Church was True, too. So, I simply took the feelings that I was feeling for her and assumed that those feelings were being brought about by the Spirit. Basically, throughout the remainder of my tenure with the Church I'd latch onto the feelings of my desire for a God, a life after death, being reunited with Jesus, the emotion faith as it were, and interpret those feelings as the Spirit. So, what's the problem you ask?

The problem is that religion in general, and Mormonism specifically (because it's relative to me), is False. It's all based on desire. There's no reliability to it. The promises aren't True...and if the promises don't come true then it was either your fault or God didn't want it to happen, or He wants it to happen, but "in His own time". There's no Spirit of Discernment. False prophecies. No artifacts. Masonry. Polygamy and lying about it. Distorted history. Changes to canon. And it's all good because it's True...and we have the "agency" to figure it out...which means that people can be wrong about a whole lot of stuff...but that "it" is still "true". What's the point?

The point is that after a while, even if you've been brainwashed your whole life to believe in a certain religion, the adult mind should wake up. The mind sees what is consistent, and what isn't. It sees what is reliable and what isn't. It has the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, True and False. The adult mind that isn't self-deluded accepts that some things are False, and others are True....the adult mind bases these decisions off of reliable and time-tested information and events. Not hope. Not faith. Faith is fantasy. It's a distractor from the reality of Death and Despair...of Injustice and Inquietude.

Just as you see so plainly that the Hill Cumorah is the Hill Cumorah, SRM's child mind won't accept the Truth. Why? Because his Desire to overcome Death and Despair is stronger than his mind's ability to accept Reality. We all have our acceptable levels of delusion, I guess, but in this case (Mormonism) I find it completely unacceptable and overly irrational to continue to delude myself with this particular fantasy. I'm here because I feel compelled to try and help other Mormons see my point of view. I feel enlightened regarding this issue, and want to share. It's pretty much that simple.

[AFDaw]

The point is that after a while, even if you've been brainwashed your whole life to believe in a certain religion, the adult mind should wake up. The mind sees what is consistent, and what isn't. It sees what is reliable and what isn't. It has the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, True and False. The adult mind that isn't self-deluded accepts that some things are False, and others are True....the adult mind bases these decisions off of reliable and time-tested information and events. Not hope. Not faith. Faith is fantasy. It's a distractor from the reality of Death and Despair...of Injustice and Inquietude.

When we are kids and growing up in the church, I do believe that the majority of us lean on someone's else's testimony, at least for some time. Usually it's the testimony of our parents. But when we grow up and become adults and move out of our parent's homes and start to support ourselves, then our "Adult mind" does wake up. And we have to find out for ourself (if we haven't already) if WE believe the church is true. Because it doesn't matter if daddy who lives 250 miles away believes it's true, I have to believe it's true. And if I don't, then I don't go to church, I don't keep the commandments, I don't have faith. But if I do, then I do attend church, I do follow the guidance of my Bishop and Prophet, I do have faith, because for me to have my own testimony, means I know for a fact it's true. It means that MY adult mind has awaken, and has searched for the truth, on it's on doing.

I can't speak for anyone else's parents, but my dad never, not ONE TIME said "This church is true because I say it is." Instead, he said "I believe this church is true, and you need to find out for yourself whether or not you believe it's true." At a young age I was taught not to believe something just because my parents did, not to do something because they did it, but because I truly believed it in my heart and mind. Hardly any brainwashing going on.

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

Holy Smokes!!

You opened up and told me what I think I needed to know. :) Indeed, there is now a lot of hope for you as your story leads me to be very optimistic that a major life change could easily happen to you at any time. I think you may be prime to have a new awakening and a spiritual experience that could change you forever.

Apparently, you never had a testimony rooted in deep spiritual experience and confirmation of the Holy Ghost, but were on a lower level of understanding, and therefore your accountability factor is on a different playing field even though you still are a nasty antiMormon! You are presently in a worldly view, temporal, and are starved for a spiritual experience that will change everything if you act upon it. There sure is hope for you yet! :)

Anyway, thanks for sharing. I don’t mind arguing with you about Mormonism but I will ever look at you much differently from now on.

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Paul,

If you think that I didn't experience the "Spirit" in the same manner as you did, and if that helps you sleep at night, then be my guest. I personally think I did. I used to "see with my spiritual eyes". I felt the Burning in the Bosom. I had "revelations". Fast and Testimonkey meetins used to touch me to the deepest part of my Burning Bosom. I used to communicate with God in a very amazing way. Prayer. Fasting. Preaching. Warm fuzzies. Pure intelligence. The whole deal.

Then I realized that it was me. It's that simple. One can generate one's own reality. If you want to feel something, or if you do feel something, and interpret it the way you want, then you can.

What I perceive is that you're so mired in your own feelings on the subject, you can't see the trees for the forest. I perceive that you absolutely close off any rational thought, i.e. doubt, in regards to your faith. The moment you sense the dissonance you shut your mind down. You push the thoughts out. You pray. You do what it takes to do what it takes to remain firm in your feelings about the Church. That's fine...but it's not a Truth that's applicable to everyone...just to you. I guess. Because it works for you. It's definitely not a lifestyle I would advocate for everyone.

[Guest Starsky]

What I perceive is that you're so mired in your own feelings on the subject, you can't see the trees for the forest.

We could conjecture that you are too close to the trees to see the forest...as you are mired in your own feelings on this subject....I would further conjecture that your are hiding from your own guilt.

I perceive that you absolutely close off any rational thought, i.e. doubt, in regards to your faith. The moment you sense the dissonance you shut your mind down. You push the thoughts out. You pray.

Praying is what people who believe in God do. It is fundamental....it would be like asking someone not to use a brake in a car heading for a cliff...to ask a believing-in- God person to not pray when threatened with the oposing forces...which are monumental.

Ephesians 6:

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

You do what it takes to do what it takes to remain firm in your feelings about the Church. That's fine...

Gosh....Paul should really thank you for such a generous gesture...LOL

but it's not a Truth that's applicable to everyone...just to you. I guess. Because it works for you.

It isn't just applicable for Paul. It is applicable for Millions daily.

It's definitely not a lifestyle I would advocate for everyone.

Of course not...look where you are coming from. :)

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

I’m glad to hear you recollect how you once felt in your joyous experiences of Mormonism. Did the burning in the bosom feel good? Did it bring you joy? How about those times when you felt close to God; did it feel invigorating and joyous to your soul? You say you had pure intelligence and I suppose it flowed through you from a heavenly source. Did that knowledge bring peace of mind and strength of character? Can you say that you are happier now than you were in those past moments of spiritual testimony that caused your mind and heart to feel blessed and enlightened? Are you better off now in what you think is truth than the bliss of the Mormon Holy Ghost filling your breast with sweet peace? Don’t you miss that at all?

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 24 2004, 04:34 PM

Antishock,

I’m glad to hear you recollect how you once felt in your joyous experiences of Mormonism. Did the burning in the bosom feel good? Did it bring you joy? How about those times when you felt close to God; did it feel invigorating and joyous to your soul? You say you had pure intelligence and I suppose it flowed through you from a heavenly source. Did that knowledge bring peace of mind and strength of character? Can you say that you are happier now than you were in those past moments of spiritual testimony that caused your mind and heart to feel blessed and enlightened? Are you better off now in what you think is truth than the bliss of the Mormon Holy Ghost filling your breast with sweet peace? Don’t you miss that at all?

Paul O

Oh. I can most definitely say I'm happier now than ever. I have a very good life.

[Guest antishock82003]

If you want to start a new thread about trying to convert me, you can...let's not hijack SRM's thread. Cool? I won't post on delusional Spirit experiencing on this thread anymore...

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 24 2004, 06:28 PM

If you want to start a new thread about trying to convert me, you can...let's not hijack SRM's thread. Cool? I won't post on delusional Spirit experiencing on this thread anymore...

Fair enough, but I think our conversation was useful to the thread and perhaps some readers will profit from that little diversion.

Paul O

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 24 2004, 06:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 24 2004, 06:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 24 2004, 04:34 PM

Antishock,

I’m glad to hear you recollect how you once felt in your joyous experiences of Mormonism. Did the burning in the bosom feel good? Did it bring you joy? How about those times when you felt close to God; did it feel invigorating and joyous to your soul? You say you had pure intelligence and I suppose it flowed through you from a heavenly source. Did that knowledge bring peace of mind and strength of character? Can you say that you are happier now than you were in those past moments of spiritual testimony that caused your mind and heart to feel blessed and enlightened? Are you better off now in what you think is truth than the bliss of the Mormon Holy Ghost filling your breast with sweet peace? Don’t you miss that at all?

Paul O

Oh. I can most definitely say I'm happier now than ever. I have a very good life.

Then why are you spending all that happy life here? LOL

[Paul Osborne]

Peace,

Antishock joys in sharing the antiMormon gospel with us and no doubt hopes to convert us so that he can have joy with us in the kingdom he will be going to.

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 25 2004, 05:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 25 2004, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 24 2004, 06:27 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 24 2004, 04:34 PM

Antishock,

I’m glad to hear you recollect how you once felt in your joyous experiences of Mormonism. Did the burning in the bosom feel good? Did it bring you joy? How about those times when you felt close to God; did it feel invigorating and joyous to your soul? You say you had pure intelligence and I suppose it flowed through you from a heavenly source. Did that knowledge bring peace of mind and strength of character? Can you say that you are happier now than you were in those past moments of spiritual testimony that caused your mind and heart to feel blessed and enlightened? Are you better off now in what you think is truth than the bliss of the Mormon Holy Ghost filling your breast with sweet peace? Don’t you miss that at all?

Paul O

Oh. I can most definitely say I'm happier now than ever. I have a very good life.

Then why are you spending all that happy life here? LOL

For the very same reason why you posted a response to my response. Duh! LOL. ROTFLMBO. IMO. LOLOL!!!

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 25 2004, 05:58 PM

Peace,

Antishock joys in sharing the antiMormon gospel with us and no doubt hopes to convert us so that he can have joy with us in the kingdom he will be going to.

Paul O

Narnia?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 25 2004, 07:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 25 2004, 07:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 25 2004, 05:58 PM

Peace,

Antishock joys in sharing the antiMormon gospel with us and no doubt hopes to convert us so that he can have joy with us in the kingdom he will be going to.

   

Paul O

Narnia?

That's precisely where I'm going. Aren't all of us????

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 25 2004, 07:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 25 2004, 07:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 25 2004, 05:58 PM

Peace,

Antishock joys in sharing the antiMormon gospel with us and no doubt hopes to convert us so that he can have joy with us in the kingdom he will be going to.

   

Paul O

Narnia?

Sorry, I live in reality; not a fantasty world.

Paul O

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 25 2004, 07:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 25 2004, 07:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 25 2004, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 24 2004, 06:27 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 24 2004, 04:34 PM

Antishock,

I’m glad to hear you recollect how you once felt in your joyous experiences of Mormonism. Did the burning in the bosom feel good? Did it bring you joy? How about those times when you felt close to God; did it feel invigorating and joyous to your soul? You say you had pure intelligence and I suppose it flowed through you from a heavenly source. Did that knowledge bring peace of mind and strength of character? Can you say that you are happier now than you were in those past moments of spiritual testimony that caused your mind and heart to feel blessed and enlightened? Are you better off now in what you think is truth than the bliss of the Mormon Holy Ghost filling your breast with sweet peace? Don’t you miss that at all?

Paul O

Oh. I can most definitely say I'm happier now than ever. I have a very good life.

Then why are you spending all that happy life here? LOL

For the very same reason why you posted a response to my response. Duh! LOL. ROTFLMBO. IMO. LOLOL!!!

O. Does that mean you come here just to rub elbows with us?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Jan 25 2004, 09:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Jan 25 2004, 09:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Jan 25 2004, 07:33 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 25 2004, 05:58 PM

Peace,

Antishock joys in sharing the antiMormon gospel with us and no doubt hopes to convert us so that he can have joy with us in the kingdom he will be going to.

    

Paul O

Narnia?

Sorry, I live in reality; not a fantasty world.

Paul O

What is narnia?