New Cumorah Thread

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Holdyourfire+Feb 7 2004, 10:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Holdyourfire @ Feb 7 2004, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Jan 24 2004, 08:48 AM

I can't speak for anyone else's parents, but my dad never, not ONE TIME said "This church is true because I say it is."  Instead, he said "I believe this church is true, and you need to find out for yourself whether or not you believe it's true."  At a young age I was taught not to believe something just because my parents did, not to do something because they did it, but because I truly believed it in my heart and mind.  Hardly any brainwashing going on.

AFDAW, I'm curious.

It's admirable that your dad encouraged you to find out for yourself if his church was true. Was he suggesting that you start from ground zero and impartially search out and compare many different religions/belief systems? Would your dad have been happy if you had chosen a different church or belief system than his? Or was the criteria only for finding out the if the church he raised you in was true/not true?

Actually, I did attend many different church services while I was in high school. I could not have started from "ground zero" as you say because I was raised in the church. But my father had no problems with me attending other churches. Would he have been happy? I think honestly, that my father would have been happy as long as I was happy. I haven't made all the right choices my whole life, but even the choices I've made that he didn't agree with (because of his beliefs in the church) he supported me 110%. I have a brother who's not very active in the church, and he continues to support him. My father's theory is that he's raised us the way he thinks was best for us, and when we're out on our own, he's not going to worry about our choices anymore because he's not the one that has to live with the consequences. He wanted us to find out if the church was true so that we would have a testimony of our own. I took that challenge (and it wasn't easy) and I came to a decision ON MY OWN that it was. Had I believed it wasn't true, I'm sure he wouldn't have thrown a party for me, but he would have accepted it.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw+Feb 7 2004, 11:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AFDaw @ Feb 7 2004, 11:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Holdyourfire@Feb 7 2004, 10:52 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Jan 24 2004, 08:48 AM

I can't speak for anyone else's parents, but my dad never, not ONE TIME said "This church is true because I say it is."  Instead, he said "I believe this church is true, and you need to find out for yourself whether or not you believe it's true."  At a young age I was taught not to believe something just because my parents did, not to do something because they did it, but because I truly believed it in my heart and mind.  Hardly any brainwashing going on.

AFDAW, I'm curious.

It's admirable that your dad encouraged you to find out for yourself if his church was true. Was he suggesting that you start from ground zero and impartially search out and compare many different religions/belief systems? Would your dad have been happy if you had chosen a different church or belief system than his? Or was the criteria only for finding out the if the church he raised you in was true/not true?

Actually, I did attend many different church services while I was in high school. I could not have started from "ground zero" as you say because I was raised in the church. But my father had no problems with me attending other churches. Would he have been happy? I think honestly, that my father would have been happy as long as I was happy. I haven't made all the right choices my whole life, but even the choices I've made that he didn't agree with (because of his beliefs in the church) he supported me 110%. I have a brother who's not very active in the church, and he continues to support him. My father's theory is that he's raised us the way he thinks was best for us, and when we're out on our own, he's not going to worry about our choices anymore because he's not the one that has to live with the consequences. He wanted us to find out if the church was true so that we would have a testimony of our own. I took that challenge (and it wasn't easy) and I came to a decision ON MY OWN that it was. Had I believed it wasn't true, I'm sure he wouldn't have thrown a party for me, but he would have accepted it.

Oh, yeah? What churches and how many times did you attend each? What was your level of commitment to each one? Please tell, and remember, God wants you to answer these questions, and he wants you to be honest.

[srm]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 7 2004, 08:28 PM

http://www.mormonismi.info/1.htm

Why would this hill in Western New York have the word 'Cumorah' spelled out on it in shrubbery if the Church didn't consider this to be THE Hill Cumorah?

You're getting even more silly now.

If we don't believe that Tennesee is really france or Idaho is really Russia...how do you explain the links below?

Paris?

Moscow?

Hint, its called Cumorah because that is now its name. This is the weakest of arguments. Sheesh

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 05:12 PM

Oh, yeah? What churches and how many times did you attend each? What was your level of commitment to each one? Please tell, and remember, God wants you to answer these questions, and he wants you to be honest.

Wait...I didn't think you believe in God? So which is it? Do you or don't you?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 29 2004, 09:55 PM

Cal,

I use to have a hard time believing that story. I worked through those difficulties by having some deep conversations with some highly intelligent persons on the Internet that explored possible ways in which the ships were constructed and conveyed upon the water. My fears were done away upon reaching a better understanding on how that voyage was accomplished.

I know you think you are really smart, Cal, and that's ok-- but you'll never break my testimony of the BofM. About all you can do is keep yourself down. How about you work up a little faith and pray to God? He always listens to sincere prayer. Is that something you could do?

Paul O

Paul, if you can explain to me how the description of these "vessels" (essentially submarines because they were supposed to be able to go under water) would allow someone to survive the journey, please do so.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by srm+Feb 9 2004, 11:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Feb 9 2004, 11:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 7 2004, 08:28 PM

http://www.mormonismi.info/1.htm

Why would this hill in Western New York have the word 'Cumorah' spelled out on it in shrubbery if the Church didn't consider this to be THE Hill Cumorah?

You're getting even more silly now.

If we don't believe that Tennesee is really france or Idaho is really Russia...how do you explain the links below?

Paris?

Moscow?

Hint, its called Cumorah because that is now its name. This is the weakest of arguments. Sheesh

Nice try at the Red Herring. Silly.

Who named this hill the Hill Cumorah, and why? SRM, please answer the questions.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw+Feb 9 2004, 01:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AFDaw @ Feb 9 2004, 01:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 8 2004, 05:12 PM

Oh, yeah?  What churches and how many times did you attend each?  What was your level of commitment to each one?  Please tell, and remember, God wants you to answer these questions, and he wants you to be honest.

Wait...I didn't think you believe in God? So which is it? Do you or don't you?

Please answer the questions, I think you're lying and I want to expose you as a fraud.

[AFDaw]

Asking me is one thing, telling me that God would want it is another. Especially since you don't believe in God.

I attended..

First Methodist Church (the one on Union Road)

Saint Mary's Catholic Church

Belmont Church of God

Sandy Plains Baptist Church (which is actually the church I got married in)

I attended several church services, wed night youth programs, fund-raisers (Church of God), a few Rainbow events (Methodist) and performed at several Can-tata's (Baptist) (or however you spell it) I devouted enough time and energy to all to determine if it was something I would be interested in. Spent the least amt of time at the Catholic and the Church of God churches, and the most at the Methodist and the Baptist. In the end The Church of Jesus Christ won out because the spirit was the strongest in that church than ALL the others combined. This all took place while I was in high school.

I think it's funny you want to expose me as a fraud. I mean..I could make up all this stuff, but why would I? If I attended different churchs or if I didn't, does it really matter? Besides, I have better things to do then to think of up lies to tell the people I don't know, who are online.

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

You just got toasted by AFDaw!! Ha ha ha! I think it was so funny to see you loose your shirt on that last one. Better luck next time. You’re getting to be a bit careless.

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 9 2004, 01:12 PM

Paul, if you can explain to me how the description of these "vessels" (essentially submarines because they were supposed to be able to go under water) would allow someone to survive the journey, please do so.

Cal,

I don't know. I just don't have all the answers. I accept the Book of Mormon on faith because of the Holy Ghost. That may seem like a poor reason to you but I'd rather have the feelings of the Holy Ghost than all the money in the world. You are tring to get me to sell out on my God and I won't do that. As I say, the manifestations given me from God are to obvious and I'm not going to make a fool out of myself before God, angels, and lo-- the devil too. Not even for 6 ontis!

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Feb 9 2004, 05:49 PM

Antishock,

You just got toasted by AFDaw!! Ha ha ha! I think it was so funny to see you loose your shirt on that last one. Better luck next time. You’re getting to be a bit careless.

Paul O

Actually, no. I just wanted her to answer the question, and I knew that by challenging her she'd respond. She's a fairly simple person, Paul.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Feb 9 2004, 05:29 PM

Asking me is one thing, telling me that God would want it is another. Especially since you don't believe in God.

I attended..

First Methodist Church (the one on Union Road)

Saint Mary's Catholic Church

Belmont Church of God

Sandy Plains Baptist Church (which is actually the church I got married in)

I attended several church services, wed night youth programs, fund-raisers (Church of God), a few Rainbow events (Methodist) and performed at several Can-tata's (Baptist) (or however you spell it) I devouted enough time and energy to all to determine if it was something I would be interested in. Spent the least amt of time at the Catholic and the Church of God churches, and the most at the Methodist and the Baptist. In the end The Church of Jesus Christ won out because the spirit was the strongest in that church than ALL the others combined. This all took place while I was in high school.

I think it's funny you want to expose me as a fraud. I mean..I could make up all this stuff, but why would I? If I attended different churchs or if I didn't, does it really matter? Besides, I have better things to do then to think of up lies to tell the people I don't know, who are online.

So, if you could break it down to a percentage. How much time total would you say you devoted to all those other churches combined over your life vs. the amount of time you spent at the LDS Church up until the point you "made a choice"?

Did you really give the Catholic Chuch equal time, effort, devotion, prayer, and consideration as you would've the Mormon Church? How do you know if you didn't pray hard enough, or sincere enough? How did you know if you didn't live the Catholic gospel...and I mean really live it. Catechism. Eucahrist. Catholic Bible study. Total immersion for a long period of time. Did you do this? Did you do this for every church? Did you give every church equal time and effort in order to be fair? Somehow I doubt it. I'm sure you gave some churches a cursory look, maybe attended one several times, but I hardly consider that to be the image that you built up as the sincere devotee of Truth...seeking out various faiths and earnestly attending different churches.

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 9 2004, 06:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 9 2004, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Feb 9 2004, 05:49 PM

Antishock,

You just got toasted by AFDaw!! Ha ha ha! I think it was so funny to see you loose your shirt on that last one. Better luck next time. You’re getting to be a bit careless.

Paul O

Actually, no. I just wanted her to answer the question, and I knew that by challenging her she'd respond. She's a fairly simple person, Paul.

Antishock,

You said, "Please answer the questions, I think you're lying and I want to expose you as a fraud."

Then you contradict yourself.

Don't feed me a line. I'm way too smart for that. You got nailed, dude. I enjoyed watching it too.

Paul O

[Cal]

Paul--at least you don't attempt some lame explanation that won't hold water (so to speak). I can respect you for that.

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 9 2004, 06:44 PM

Paul--at least you don't attempt some lame explanation that won't hold water (so to speak). I can respect you for that.

Thanks Cal.

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Feb 9 2004, 06:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Feb 9 2004, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -antishock82003@Feb 9 2004, 06:10 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Feb 9 2004, 05:49 PM

Antishock,

You just got toasted by AFDaw!! Ha ha ha! I think it was so funny to see you loose your shirt on that last one. Better luck next time. You’re getting to be a bit careless.

Paul O

Actually, no. I just wanted her to answer the question, and I knew that by challenging her she'd respond. She's a fairly simple person, Paul.

Antishock,

You said, "Please answer the questions, I think you're lying and I want to expose you as a fraud."

Then you contradict yourself.

Don't feed me a line. I'm way too smart for that. You got nailed, dude. I enjoyed watching it too.

Paul O

How did I just "contradict" myself....and please use the word "contradict" in context of your response...because you're so smart.

And, I'm in the process of exposing her as a fraud. Be patient padawan.

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

I think it is even more hilarious that you don't see it!!

You are entertaining me. I need to pop some popcorn. Keep it up.

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Feb 9 2004, 07:03 PM

Antishock,

I think it is even more hilarious that you don't see it!!

You are entertaining me. I need to pop some popcorn. Keep it up.

Paul O

Please Paul. Explain how I CONTRADICTED myself. Since you're so smart 'n all. I think you're being silly.

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

Go ahead and think I’m silly; that’s quite ok. I'm not saying anything more about it. I'm not going to help you.

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Feb 9 2004, 07:18 PM

Antishock,

Go ahead and think I’m silly; that’s quite ok. I'm not saying anything more about it. I'm not going to help you.

Paul O

Paul, you obviously said something stupid, and now you can't back it up. Maybe you should think twice, heck three or four times, before you run off at the mouth. 'Course, you're so smart an' all maybe only you know what you meant when you said that I contradicted myself...

[Paul Osborne]

[AFDaw]

So, if you could break it down to a percentage.  How much time total would you say you devoted to all those other churches combined over your life vs. the amount of time you spent at the LDS Church up until the point you "made a choice"?

I can't break it down into percentages. I hope that doesn't make me a "Fraud"

Did you really give the Catholic Chuch equal time, effort, devotion, prayer, and consideration as you would've the Mormon Church?

Yes

How do you know if you didn't pray hard enough, or sincere enough?

I did, trust me.

How did you know if you didn't live the Catholic gospel...and I mean really live it.  Catechism.  Eucahrist.  Catholic Bible study.  Total immersion for a long period of time.  Did you do this? 

Long period of time? No way. I knew almost immediatly I didn't like the Catholic church. I'm not a big fan of praying to Mary.

Did you do this for every church?

Some more so than others.

Did you give every church equal time and effort in order to be fair?

I gave each church the amount of time it took for me to make a decision. Some fairly quickly, some longer than others.

Somehow I doubt it. I'm sure you gave some churches a cursory look, maybe attended one several times, but I hardly consider that to be the image that you built up as the sincere devotee of Truth...seeking out various faiths and earnestly attending different churches.

Yeah, I'll be sure and lose sleep over this tonight.

[srm]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Feb 9 2004, 04:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Feb 9 2004, 04:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -srm@Feb 9 2004, 11:03 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 7 2004, 08:28 PM

http://www.mormonismi.info/1.htm

Why would this hill in Western New York have the word 'Cumorah' spelled out on it in shrubbery if the Church didn't consider this to be THE Hill Cumorah?

You're getting even more silly now.

If we don't believe that Tennesee is really france or Idaho is really Russia...how do you explain the links below?

Paris?

Moscow?

Hint, its called Cumorah because that is now its name. This is the weakest of arguments. Sheesh

Nice try at the Red Herring. Silly.

Who named this hill the Hill Cumorah, and why? SRM, please answer the questions.

It is precisely on point. Your idea that because the hill is now named cumorah or because they wrote cumorah on the hill with shrubbery it must be the same hill is specious. My post is not a red herring because it is making the same point that you're trying to. Here’s another. Toledo is in Spain...right? Well, I beg to differ

Toledo

Anti,

I understand why you make such a strong stand on this issue. but your arguments just don't hold water. As to your questions. I don't know who named the hill Cumorah in modern times. I can imagine why. it is where the plates were found.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Feb 9 2004, 10:05 PM

So, if you could break it down to a percentage.  How much time total would you say you devoted to all those other churches combined over your life vs. the amount of time you spent at the LDS Church up until the point you "made a choice"?

I can't break it down into percentages. I hope that doesn't make me a "Fraud"

Did you really give the Catholic Chuch equal time, effort, devotion, prayer, and consideration as you would've the Mormon Church?

Yes

How do you know if you didn't pray hard enough, or sincere enough?

I did, trust me.

How did you know if you didn't live the Catholic gospel...and I mean really live it.  Catechism.  Eucahrist.  Catholic Bible study.  Total immersion for a long period of time.  Did you do this? 

Long period of time? No way. I knew almost immediatly I didn't like the Catholic church. I'm not a big fan of praying to Mary.

Did you do this for every church?

Some more so than others.

Did you give every church equal time and effort in order to be fair?

I gave each church the amount of time it took for me to make a decision. Some fairly quickly, some longer than others.

Somehow I doubt it. I'm sure you gave some churches a cursory look, maybe attended one several times, but I hardly consider that to be the image that you built up as the sincere devotee of Truth...seeking out various faiths and earnestly attending different churches.

Yeah, I'll be sure and lose sleep over this tonight.

Actually, I did attend many different church services while I was in high school. I could not have started from "ground zero" as you say because I was raised in the church....He wanted us to find out if the church was true so that we would have a testimony of our own. I took that challenge (and it wasn't easy) and I came to a decision ON MY OWN that it was. Had I believed it wasn't true, I'm sure he wouldn't have thrown a party for me, but he would have accepted it. 

1) Right off the bat you've already devoted a vast amount of time to one Church. You've already been influenced to a high degree by the Mormon church. There's an inequity of influence and devotion on which you based your decision.

2) You want to give the impression that you gained your testimony after a thourough search and examination of other Churches. But you didn't. You "attended" some services? Are you kidding me? Would you accept that as an acceptable answer from Trident if the roles were reversed and he came to the conclusion that Mormonism was false? No Mormon I know would consider that to be a decent effort if all some investigator did was attend a few services, participated in some activities, and then based on that effort determined Mormonism to be false.

3) What's really going on here is that you wanted to FEEL that the Church was True. It's that simple. You did enough in your own mind to go out and "put in a sincere effort" in your "search for truth". Yet you didn't feel the Truth in those other churches....surprise surprise. Now you've got a neat little faith promoting story you can share with all your Mormon bretheren about how you "put your faith to the test" and "gained a testimony on your own". It's bogus. It's a sham. It was a done deal way before you ever set foot in another chapel.

You may fool some of the people some of the time...but not all of the people all of the time, honey. There's reason why there's only a few million Mormons that attend Church on any given Sunday...because the rest of the world AIN'T feeling what you feel, baby. And that's a fact.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Feb 10 2004, 04:00 PM

1) Right off the bat you've already devoted a vast amount of time to one Church.  You've already been influenced to a high degree by the Mormon church. There's an inequity of influence and devotion on which you based your decision.

2) You want to give the impression that you gained your testimony after a thourough search and examination of other Churches.  But you didn't.  You "attended" some services?  Are you kidding me?  Would you accept that as an acceptable answer from Trident if the roles were reversed and he came to the conclusion that Mormonism was false? No Mormon I know would consider that to be a decent effort if all some investigator did was attend a few services, participated in some activities, and then based on that effort determined Mormonism to be false.

3) What's really going on here is that you wanted to FEEL that the Church was True.  It's that simple.  You did enough in your own mind to go out and "put in a sincere effort" in your "search for truth".  Yet you didn't feel the Truth in those other churches....surprise surprise.  Now you've got a neat little faith promoting story you can share with all your Mormon bretheren about how you "put your faith to the test" and "gained a testimony on your own".  It's bogus.  It's a sham.  It was a done deal way before you ever set foot in another chapel.

You may fool some of the people some of the time...but not all of the people all of the time, honey.  There's reason why there's only a few million Mormons that attend Church on any given Sunday...because the rest of the world AIN'T feeling what you feel, baby.  And that's a fact.

What's wrong Anti, can't believe that someone attending and looked into other church's and STILL felt that the Mormon church was the only true church on the Earth? I'm sorry you feel that way. And seriously...as for what Trident would believe and how he doesn't believe the church to be true, I honestly...and I mean HONESTLY couldn't care less. I don't live my life to please others, and I don't expect others to live their life to please me. NOR do I care what others do with their lives. You want to tell me you have a testimony that this church isn't true...hey, by all means be my guest. Will not shake my testimony ONE bit.

What I love MOST about your post is you write about me as if you have some knowledge of what you're talking about. You act like you KNOW how much time effort and energy I devoted to each church. I'm sorry, I don't remember you looking over my shoulder through my high school life. What's more, you act like I care what you're opinion of the whole situtation is. I KNOW this church is true, just like I KNOW that the other church's I attended weren't true. Yes, I attended some services, fund raisers, youth activities, but you forgot to add one thing, and that was I prayed about each and everyone of them also.

I'm not trying to prove anything to you Anti, I couldn't care if you believed me or if you didn't. Like I said in a previous post, I promise not to lose sleep over what your opinion is. Nor will I lose sleep over what anyone else in this free world thinks. All I need to worry about is me and my family.