What becomes of Christ's wounds?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Is the Holy Ghost ahead of us or equal with us? The Joseph Smith quotes clearly state the the Holy Ghost will have the opportunity to become a mortal Savior. Not just go through mortality like you and me. This leads to only 2 options that I can think of. Either Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost are traveling a seperate path that we cannot follow. Or they are ahead of us on the same pathway that we follow. I believe that there is only one pathway. This pathway leads to Exaltation and Eternal lives 132:24, although there are many side paths that lead away from the ultimate destination...

I appreciate your stance. And I wholeheartedly believe that you will be able to "rest" if you so choose.

But from my understanding of the Lord, His rest seems alot like work (Moses 1:39).

This is exactly why I think "rest" means rest from trials. I agree with continued work. What does "rest" mean to you then?

[mikbone]

This is exactly why I think "rest" means rest from trials. I agree with continued work. What does "rest" mean to you then?

D&C 84:23 ... which rest is the fulness of his glory

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

It is to do the same thing that God does. I don't think that He has an easy job.

We do not have much of a record of what the Father actually does. Most of the interaction that we have had with God in the scriptures has been with Jehovah or Jesus Christ.

Matthew 27:46 must have been a trial of sorts.

[Seminarysnoozer]

D&C 84:23 ... which rest is the fulness of his glory

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

It is to do the same thing that God does. I don't think that He has an easy job.

We do not have much of a record of what the Father actually does. Most of the interaction that we have had with God in the scriptures has been with Jehovah or Jesus Christ.

Matthew 27:46 must have been a trial of sorts.

You are now saying words I didn't say. I never said "easy".

Matthew 27:46 is part of Jesus life here. Are we talking about the fullness of His glory or not?

In D&C 76 it says that those that make it into the Celestial Kingdom will be given all things. I guess for you, "all" doesn't really mean all.

As for the previous post about the Holy Ghost, I don't think we are taught in the Church anywhere that when a person holds an office that they are somehow better than someone else. Where does it say that the Holy Ghost is more advanced than anyone here? We honor the office, not the man.

[mikbone]

Matthew 27:46 is part of Jesus life here. Are we talking about the fullness of His glory or not?

Please see “His Great Heart Almost Breaking” to see how this verse applies to the Father.

In D&C 76 it says that those that make it into the Celestial Kingdom will be given all things. I guess for you, "all" doesn't really mean all.

Yea, all things. The authority and the responsibilities. The blessings and the challenges. Those who make it to the highest level of the celestial kingdom are not damned and are blessed with the opportunity of Eternal progression and ALL that comes with it.

As for the previous post about the Holy Ghost, I don't think we are taught in the Church anywhere that when a person holds an office that they are somehow better than someone else. Where does it say that the Holy Ghost is more advanced than anyone here? We honor the office, not the man.

Oh boy... This is a whole different topic. We don't ever say that because someone holds an office that they are better than everyone else. But those who are chosen for an office are usually chosen for a wise purpose. Perhaps they have more talents, or are more worthy or dedicated, take your pick.

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead. He is more advanced than you or I. Accept it.

You and I probably have a different understanding of Honor.

I honor President Obama because of the office, he is my president. For some reason that I cannot understand, the majority of Americans voted him to be our President. I do not agree with his politics and I hope that we will have a different outcome in 2012.

I honor Jesus Christ because of what he did for me. I don't honor his office.

Lucifer petitioned for the position of Savior because he wanted the honor that he thought was awarded with the office. See D&C 29:36 "Give me thine honor, which is my power." Moses 4:1-2, Abraham 3:27-28

The following quote is from Brandon Sanderson. He is a LDS Fantasy novelist who recently wrote The Way of Kings a highly successful and very good book btw. In the book is a quote that I took note of because I loved it so much. And becuase it is true.

"Authority doesn't come from a rank"

“Where does it come from?”

“From the men who give it to you. That’s the only way to get it.”

Believe me. We honor the Man not the office.

Anyone male with functional sperm can be parent. It takes a great deal more to be a father that is honored by his children.

Edited April 25, 2011 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

Please see “His Great Heart Almost Breaking” to see how this verse applies to the Father.

Yea, all things. The authority and the responsibilities. The blessings and the challenges. Those who make it to the highest level of the celestial kingdom are not damned and are blessed with the opportunity of Eternal progression and ALL that comes with it.

Oh boy... This is a whole different topic. We don't ever say that because someone holds an office that they are better than everyone else. But those who are chosen for an office are usually chosen for a wise purpose. Perhaps they have more talents, or are more worthy or dedicated, take your pick.

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead. He is more advanced than you or I. Accept it.

You and I probably have a different understanding of Honor.

I honor President Obama because of the office, he is my president. For some reason that I cannot understand, the majority of Americans voted him to be our President. I do not agree with his politics and I hope that we will have a different outcome in 2012.

I honor Jesus Christ because of what he did for me. I don't honor his office.

Lucifer petitioned for the position of Savior because he wanted the honor that he thought was awarded with the office. See D&C 29:36 "Give me thine honor, which is my power." Moses 4:1-2, Abraham 3:27-28

The following quote is from Brandon Sanderson. He is a LDS Fantasy novelist who recently wrote The Way of Kings a highly successful and very good book btw. In the book is a quote that I took note of because I loved it so much. And becuase it is true.

"Authority doesn't come from a rank"

“Where does it come from?”

“From the men who give it to you. That’s the only way to get it.”

Believe me. We honor the Man not the office.

Anyone male with functional sperm can be parent. It takes a great deal more to be a father that is honored by his children.

Unfortunately, I have been really busy lately and haven't been able to put in as much thought to my responses as I normally do. I appreciate your exchange and patience. I am trying to understand your viewpoint more. I wish I had more time to put into this right now because I think these are interesting topics. ...

In my view, by honoring the office, we are only honoring the power of God and His authority. Even Jesus gave all glory and honor to God not for himself. I think authority and honor are different.

I would like to know where you got that information that you know who the Holy Ghost is and how advanced you think he is. Of course, we are in a fallen state right now, anyone who is not in a fallen state, I suppose we could argue is more "advanced" then us just by definition of what the fallen state does. I am sure his office also gives him power and authority that the rest of us don't have but that is not a measurement of advancement or not, that was my point about offices. We do not believe that if a person gets put in as bishop that they are more "advanced" then any other member of the high priests who is in good standing who has not been bishop.

If one makes it to the Celestial Kingdom, the highest level, on Judgment day, and (as you agreed above) they receive all the power and authority then what other probationary period do they need to pass through? Of course, I am not saying they get it all at that moment, don't get me wrong. I agree with there being plenty of work, but not trials. To me a "probationary" period means that there is a chance for failure. And 'trial' also implies a chance for failure. "Probationary" and "trials" are not guaranteed advancement. The way I understand the gospel of Jesus Christ is that the judgment day is final, the "rest" comes in that there is no more probationary status, which has nothing really to do with work. We are currently in a probationary period that will end all probationary periods, unless you think there is some "third" or "fourth" estate, etc. You think I have that wrong?

[mikbone]

Even Jesus gave all glory and honor to God not for himself.

Well, Jehovah in Moses 4:2 said the Glory be thine forever. But here is the thing. Jehovah is not a vector that simply transfers Glory to the Father. Jehovah has earned honor and glory. And He has it in spades. Do we Honor Jehovah? Does He have Glory? Why do we Honor Jehovah? Why does He have Glory?

I think authority and honor are different.

They are different yet have similarities. Honor is way more powerful then authority though. Someone follows thoes in authority because they fear the repercussions of disobedience. We follow those that we Honor because we wish to be like them and have faith that their course will bring us happiness. God has both authority and honor, no?

I would like to know where you got that information that you know who the Holy Ghost is and how advanced you think he is. Of course, we are in a fallen state right now, anyone who is not in a fallen state, I suppose we could argue is more "advanced" then us just by definition of what the fallen state does. I am sure his office also gives him power and authority that the rest of us don't have but that is not a measurement of advancement or not, that was my point about offices.

I never said I knew who he was. But He is more advanced than you and I, of this there is no doubt. He is a member of the Godhead. This shouldn't really be a debate... Please see In These Three I Believe - Liahona July 2006

We are currently in a probationary period that will end all probationary periods.

I agree that if we make it though this test that we will never be under Lucifer's control again. But, I have a gut feeling deep down inside that there will be continued trials and difficulties. It is the by far the best way to learn and grow.

I can't imagine giving omnipotent knowledge and power to my 2 year old son. He would have the earth destroyed in an afternoon.

We will be given authority and power as soon as we have adequately proved that we are worthy to partake of that power and authority.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Well, Jehovah in Moses 4:2 said the Glory be thine forever. But here is the thing. Jehovah is not a vector that simply transfers Glory to the Father. Jehovah has earned honor and glory. And He has it in spades. Do we Honor Jehovah? Does He have Glory? Why do we Honor Jehovah? Why does He have Glory?

They are different yet have similarities. Honor is way more powerful then authority though. Someone follows thoes in authority because they fear the repercussions of disobedience. We follow those that we Honor because we wish to be like them and have faith that their course will bring us happiness. God has both authority and honor, no?

I never said I knew who he was. But He is more advanced than you and I, of this there is no doubt. He is a member of the Godhead. This shouldn't really be a debate... Please see In These Three I Believe - Liahona July 2006

I agree that if we make it though this test that we will never be under Lucifer's control again. But, I have a gut feeling deep down inside that there will be continued trials and difficulties. It is the by far the best way to learn and grow.

I can't imagine giving omnipotent knowledge and power to my 2 year old son. He would have the earth destroyed in an afternoon.

We will be given authority and power as soon as we have adequately proved that we are worthy to partake of that power and authority.

I think part of the reason we may clash a little in these ideas is that I believe glory can be shared. It is something that all those around will be edified by and be a part of. Jesus could not keep the glory for himself if He wanted to. That is not what glory is. And so the Father being glorified in His Savior would have all that glory as well, as if He did all that His Savior did, making it endless and Eternal.

When I read, John and the other gospels, I think Jesus' service here in this realm is completely a vector. He says it over and over again that He is only doing what the Father tells him to do that He is not here to judge of to receive honor. I really think that this is the heart of what makes Eternal Life possible. It is possible when every act we have is charitable, not for ourselves. A savior cannot be a savior without someone to save. Just like a teacher cannot be a teacher without someone to teach. We know that when we teach with the spirit, the teacher and the student are both edified. This is the same with our relationship with our Savior. Being the Savior cannot be separated from the people that are saved and so they become equal and receive the fullness of that act. This is how God's glory can go on forever because He is constantly sharing in the glory of all that do good. We have that ability too. The Celestial Kingdom is made up of those that truly care about the success of others, including the success of Jesus. So, when He is successful, we are all successful and we all equally rejoice. To only rejoice in one's own successes is limiting. This is the opposite of the gospel of Christ.

I completely disagree with the idea that the fastest way to learn is through trial and error. The fastest way to learn is by faith. This is why the people in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom are not those that simply endured the worst forms of trial there may be but those that exhibited faith when there was no trial. Those that kept their faith during hardships will receive their just reward but also where much is given much is expected. As each circumstance is different, God will determine what the passing level of faith is for each circumstance. But the pass is not determined by how much was endured but by how much faith was exhibited during those trials.

The reason that being "like a child" is the fastest way to learn is that they don't question the authority of the person or ask for 'credentials' or say 'prove it'. (Yes, there are some kids that do that, but the metaphor of "like a child" represents one who is submissive) We learn the fastest when we don't have to prove every little concept for ourselves. I don't have to touch the flame to know that it is hot and will burn me, I have faith in those that tell me it will. I don't have to descend as far as Jesus did because he did it for me and if I really have faith in Him, enough to follow His gospel teachings, then that is good enough, it is as if I have done it with Him. Just like we don't all have to be the Bishop or the Relief Society President or the Prophet for that matter. We can all be edified in each other and receive the fullness.

When my children do well in something, they get an A on an exam or they behave well, I feel their joy almost as if I did it myself. I know this concept is hard to understand in this life but that is what the love of Christ is all about, that is what being charitable is. God is a charitable God and therefore shares in all of our successes and we can share in His too. The members of the Celestial Kingdom will have to have that same attitude, which is brought about by having real faith in Christ, that we can be one through Him.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[mikbone]

I think part of the reason we may clash a little in these ideas is that I believe glory can be shared. It is something that all those around will be edified by and be a part of. Jesus could not keep the glory for himself if He wanted to. That is not what glory is. And so the Father being glorified in His Savior would have all that glory as well, as if He did all that His Savior did, making it endless and Eternal.

When I read, John and the other gospels, I think Jesus' service here in this realm is completely a vector. He says it over and over again that He is only doing what the Father tells him to do that He is not here to judge of to receive honor. I really think that this is the heart of what makes Eternal Life possible. It is possible when every act we have is charitable, not for ourselves. A savior cannot be a savior without someone to save. Just like a teacher cannot be a teacher without someone to teach. We know that when we teach with the spirit, the teacher and the student are both edified. This is the same with our relationship with our Savior. Being the Savior cannot be separated from the people that are saved and so they become equal and receive the fullness of that act. This is how God's glory can go on forever because He is constantly sharing in the glory of all that do good. We have that ability too. The Celestial Kingdom is made up of those that truly care about the success of others, including the success of Jesus. So, when He is successful, we are all successful and we all equally rejoice. To only rejoice in one's own successes is limiting. This is the opposite of the gospel of Christ.

When Jesus did the Atonement he received glory. He earned my and your honor. We honor him. We look to Him for salvation, there is none other that can save us, not even the Father. The elements obey him when he speaks. He created the Earth and the physical matter with which we are composed. When we give priesthood blessings we do so in the name of Jesus Christ. You claim that Jesus is a vector that only passes glory through to the father. Yet you also claim that some of that glory is yours and everyone else that follows in his plan. Moses followed the Savior yet after He was introduced to Jehovah for the first time he stated "Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed." Moses 1:10.

Yes the Father is glorified in the Son because the Father showed Jehovah what to do, and He assisted the Savior throughout the pre-mortal existance and mortality. It was Elohim's plan that Jehovah become our Savior. But you and I cannot claim glory from the Atonement. We can take advantage of the Atonement and return to be with God because of the Grace of God. I believe that we can eventually earn glory and honor because of the gifts that the Lord and Savior have given us.

I completely disagree with the idea that the fastest way to learn is through trial and error. The fastest way to learn is by faith.

It seems like a great idea, but practically it just doesn't work.

For example, I fixed a broken femur this morning. It was fractured in 4 pieces. I first opened the thigh laterally then I methodically worked to get the pieces of bone back together with multiple reduction clamps, traction, and pins. Then I placed a precontoured plate on to the bone and placed multiple screws through the plate permanently fixing the bone to the plate. This will allow the bone to heal in a correct position.

I learned how to do this through book study, a 5 year residency, and many years of previous orthopaedic cases.

No one can learn how to do what I did today through faith alone. No doubt faith helped me to learn faster but the practical knowledge and experience was necessary.

Would you rather have Thomas S. Monson or Dieter F. Uchtdorf pilot your next plane to your vacation destination?

[Seminarysnoozer]

It seems like a great idea, but practically it just doesn't work.

For example, I fixed a broken femur this morning. It was fractured in 4 pieces. I first opened the thigh laterally then I methodically worked to get the pieces of bone back together with multiple reduction clamps, traction, and pins. Then I placed a precontoured plate on to the bone and placed multiple screws through the plate permanently fixing the bone to the plate. This will allow the bone to heal in a correct position.

I learned how to do this through book study, a 5 year residency, and many years of previous orthopaedic cases.

No one can learn how to do what I did today through faith alone. No doubt faith helped me to learn faster but the practical knowledge and experience was necessary.

Would you rather have Thomas S. Monson or Dieter F. Uchtdorf pilot your next plane to your vacation destination?

It did work, you just don't acknowledge it. Along the lines of your learning you had to have faith in what others told you. When they told you about the clotting enzymes, did you research it yourself? Did you take the decades of research behind that knowledge to figure it out yourself? Did you discover how to make metal instruments by yourself so that you could have a scalpel in your hand? Did you yourself discover the techniques you used, sterile techniques and surgical techniques? No, so you must have had faith in what your instructors were telling you that it is the correct way to do the procedure. Sure, you may have built upon that knowledge and perfected a few things about it. But the majority of the knowledge you have received over the years of training is based on trusting what you hear from your instructors going all the way back to Kindergarten.

The statement was how to learn faster. Not whether it was necessary or not. Faith is the fastest way to learn and it is necessary. The reason we have experience here is to learn how to trust in our faith even more. To refine our ability to have faith. That is the purpose of experience. Experience learning requires no higher thought process other than recognizing success or failure. To take experience and learn from it requires faith. To expand on the experience to other situations requires faith.

The learning we do in this life is simply to give us opportunity to exercise our faith or develop it. It is not so we will somehow have more factual knowledge in the life to come. How much did we learn before coming here. I thought we are taught that we learned as much possible as a spirit and our growth and ability couldn't go any further without having a body and having a test of faith, the desires of our heart. So, how to overcome body or carnal passions, how to rely on faith and how to develop righteous desires of the heart is the only 'learning' we advance with in this life. As soon as the veil is passed I will guarantee you that I will know more, as well as everyone else, than the greatest surgeon that ever lived in this world about anatomy and surgical techniques. Even from a historical sense, I could look back at this world's events and learn quickly all that took place in terms of medical science. On top of that I will have a perfect body so I will be more adept and agile than any physician ever was. This would be true for every profession and every bit of secular learning if we have perfect faith in this life.

In the next life Monson would be just as good of a pilot as anyone if that were something available. I don't see how that kind of question pertains to the value of learning in the Eternities and the pattern of learning for the Eternities.

To me, the amount of learning we get in this life is similar to the amount of learning that takes place during a final exam. Sure, one might gather a few facts from the questions themselves but we hope to have all the knowledge we need before we take the test. The majority of the learning has already taken place. We just have to acknowledge it and recognize it by listening to the spirit.

[Seminarysnoozer]

But you and I cannot claim glory from the Atonement.

If I can't claim glory from the atonement where else can I claim glory? It is through the atonement that all glory is possible. ... I don't know if you really meant to say that.

[mikbone]

It did work, you just don't acknowledge it. Along the lines of your learning you had to have faith in what others told you. When they told you about the clotting enzymes, did you research it yourself? Did you take the decades of research behind that knowledge to figure it out yourself? Did you discover how to make metal instruments by yourself so that you could have a scalpel in your hand? Did you yourself discover the techniques you used, sterile techniques and surgical techniques? No, so you must have had faith in what your instructors were telling you that it is the correct way to do the procedure. Sure, you may have built upon that knowledge and perfected a few things about it. But the majority of the knowledge you have received over the years of training is based on trusting what you hear from your instructors going all the way back to Kindergarten.

The statement was how to learn faster. Not whether it was necessary or not. Faith is the fastest way to learn and it is necessary. The reason we have experience here is to learn how to trust in our faith even more. To refine our ability to have faith. That is the purpose of experience. Experience learning requires no higher thought process other than recognizing success or failure. To take experience and learn from it requires faith. To expand on the experience to other situations requires faith.

The learning we do in this life is simply to give us opportunity to exercise our faith or develop it. It is not so we will somehow have more factual knowledge in the life to come. How much did we learn before coming here. I thought we are taught that we learned as much possible as a spirit and our growth and ability couldn't go any further without having a body and having a test of faith, the desires of our heart. So, how to overcome body or carnal passions, how to rely on faith and how to develop righteous desires of the heart is the only 'learning' we advance with in this life. As soon as the veil is passed I will guarantee you that I will know more, as well as everyone else, than the greatest surgeon that ever lived in this world about anatomy and surgical techniques. Even from a historical sense, I could look back at this world's events and learn quickly all that took place in terms of medical science. On top of that I will have a perfect body so I will be more adept and agile than any physician ever was. This would be true for every profession and every bit of secular learning if we have perfect faith in this life.

In the next life Monson would be just as good of a pilot as anyone if that were something available. I don't see how that kind of question pertains to the value of learning in the Eternities and the pattern of learning for the Eternities.

To me, the amount of learning we get in this life is similar to the amount of learning that takes place during a final exam. Sure, one might gather a few facts from the questions themselves but we hope to have all the knowledge we need before we take the test. The majority of the learning has already taken place. We just have to acknowledge it and recognize it by listening to the spirit.

My argument is that faith alone without works is worthless. From your writing it seems that you believe that the act of faith alone is sufficient. Perhaps you have felt that I have over stressed works. I don't think that after this life everyone that makes it to the celestial kingdom will automatically have the intelligence and skill to perform all kinds of surgery, fly airplanes, etc. And the skills that one must perfect to become like God is infinitly more complex than simple surgery. There was no purpose in learning the function, anatomy, let alone surgical repair of a physical body during the pr-emortal existance, thus I seriously doubt that those subjects were taught during our pre-mortal schooling. One of the main purposes of coming to Earth was to learn about bodies and physical matter.

I can't play a musical instrument other than my voice and a whistle and I'm pretty rotten at both. I wish that I had some skill in music but I have never really put forth the effort to learn. My first piano teacher told my mother that I was hopeless. I am pretty sure that on the other side I will have the opportunity to learn how to play music, but I will not be endowed with the ability to do so without practice. Perhaps I knew some music in the pre-mortal existence. Its obvious that some mortals like Motzart were musically gifted prior to coming to earth. It appears that I was not.

No doubt we will learn much faster and our resurrected bodies will be more adept but we still have learning to do. Lots of learning. You see, many people believe that upon entering into the Celestial Kingdom that we will be blessed with ultimate power and abilities, I don't.

Knowledge, power, and skill will come line upon line, precept upon precept. You have to earn everything that you get even in the hereafter.

[mikbone]

If I can't claim glory from the atonement where else can I claim glory? It is through the atonement that all glory is possible. ... I don't know if you really meant to say that.

What glory are you claiming?

Why do you suppose that Moses stated, "Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed." Moses 1:10.

And I'm pretty sure that Moses was much more advanced spiritually than you or I...

When Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son, he stated that their Glory defied all description and that they were brighter than the noon day sun. Do you know what you see if you put me into a dark room? Nothing.

[Seminarysnoozer]

What glory are you claiming?

Why do you suppose that Moses stated, "Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed." Moses 1:10.

And I'm pretty sure that Moses was much more advanced spiritually than you or I...

When Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son, he stated that their Glory defied all description and that they were brighter than the noon day sun. Do you know what you see if you put me into a dark room? Nothing.

The glory associated with keeping my second estate.

We are talking about after this life. This whole thread is after this life. What becomes of Christ's wounds after this life. Yes, man is nothing in this fallen state, that is how far we have fallen. The glory that we will receive upon completing our probationary state is so far above where we are now. That is why it is important to understand what kind of learning we are talking about that will be valuable to us in the next life. Our spiritual self is 'more advanced' than any man could be or will be. Sure, that is why the Holy Ghost is 'more advanced' than any of us right now, because man is nothing. We forget how advanced we really are, that is what the veil does. To remember that requires faith.

This life is an entrance exam. It's like taking the MCAT. You may learn a few things during the test that you didn't really know before but the majority of the things we are being tested on, which is the true nature of our spiritual self, is already formed. We advanced as far as we could without having a body. In other words, we advanced as far as any spirit could without having a body, including the Holy Ghost. If anything, we are more advanced than the Holy Ghost because we have received our bodies and have taken a step forward. Of course, it doesn't seem like it, it only seems like a step down, but it is also a step forward. The Holy Ghost hasn't taken that step forward yet.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Seminarysnoozer]

My argument is that faith alone without works is worthless. From your writing it seems that you believe that the act of faith alone is sufficient. Perhaps you have felt that I have over stressed works. I don't think that after this life everyone that makes it to the celestial kingdom will automatically have the intelligence and skill to perform all kinds of surgery, fly airplanes, etc. And the skills that one must perfect to become like God is infinitly more complex than simple surgery. There was no purpose in learning the function, anatomy, let alone surgical repair of a physical body during the pr-emortal existance, thus I seriously doubt that those subjects were taught during our pre-mortal schooling. One of the main purposes of coming to Earth was to learn about bodies and physical matter.

I can't play a musical instrument other than my voice and a whistle and I'm pretty rotten at both. I wish that I had some skill in music but I have never really put forth the effort to learn. My first piano teacher told my mother that I was hopeless. I am pretty sure that on the other side I will have the opportunity to learn how to play music, but I will not be endowed with the ability to do so without practice. Perhaps I knew some music in the pre-mortal existence. Its obvious that some mortals like Motzart were musically gifted prior to coming to earth. It appears that I was not.

No doubt we will learn much faster and our resurrected bodies will be more adept but we still have learning to do. Lots of learning. You see, many people believe that upon entering into the Celestial Kingdom that we will be blessed with ultimate power and abilities, I don't.

Knowledge, power, and skill will come line upon line, precept upon precept. You have to earn everything that you get even in the hereafter.

The thing is, I never said 'faith alone'.

I think we did learn anatomy. If some of us helped in forming this world, we likely had to know how everything would be formed. I think Adam naming animals is somewhat symbolic of that.

I think many gifts of the body are just that, not of the spirit. We don't know if Mozart was musically talented before coming here. It depends on how much you think your spirit shines through in your knowledge and personality. If the spirit was that influential in our current natures then wouldn't that shine through at birth? If our spiritual talents were really available to us we would be born talking and playing the piano etc., at least within a few years after becoming physically able to do so. The story of the ten talents suggests that we are given talents to see what we will do with them. Also, where much is given much is expected. We believe in being given a set of circumstances, including talents, a little bit of responsibility, so that we can be stewards over greater things in the future.

These are borrowed talents. Often times they are even borrowed likes and dislikes, borrowed passions and preferences. Otherwise, you are going to have to explain why some people have obsessions, some people have a predisposition to depression, some people have a predisposition to anger, etc. You might say those are diseases ... they are just identified diseases, but our whole body is diseased, we are in a fallen state. This is why Moses said, man is nothing.

As a whole, I think we put too much of a love of our personal talents as if that is who we really are. That is part of the test, to not fall in love with your carnal state but to use it for the good of others as if it never really belonged to you in the first place. If Mozart claimed musical prowess from his own spiritual ability then he runs the risk of not being thankful for the gift that was given him in this life. The ungrateful servant. All of us will face the risk of not being thankful enough if we say the reason that I am the way I am is because I must have had some special skill in this or that. I think that is dangerous thinking, prideful thinking. Man is nothing. The unskilled person in this life may have been the most skillful in the previous. Do you think Moses had trouble speaking in front of large groups before this life? Do you think Hitler was a great speaker before this life?

This is one of the major problems of this world, the world looks at the outside where God looks inside. The world glorifies athletes and models and people with outward talents more than talents based in spiritual power. A perfect body in the next life will have the same amount of 'brain power', agility, beauty, skill, aptitudes etc. as any other perfect body.