Old Testament Question

[vestig8or]

Hi,

I'm a new member. I haven't yet read the entire Book of Mormon and am just beginning to read the Bible. I've done a little reading of the Torah. I've just been moved from Gospel Principles to Bible Study class.

I was really surprised to hear in Bible study that it wasn't God who gave the 10 Commandments to Moses, but Jesus. This really shook me up because these old scriptures were written in Hebrew, which I understand hasn't changed in thousands of years, unlike the New Testament which has been retranslated and changed numerous times. There are different Hebrew words for God depending on if he's being a merciful God or exacting justice. But I've never heard that the Jews were mistaken and that it was really not God they were talking about. Did I misunderstand? If not, is this just in the LDS church? Or have other Christian religions "rewritten/reinterpretted" the OT to include Jesus?

Not trying to get anyone upset with me, I'm really struggling with this.

Thanks in advance for being gentle.

[volgadon]

I think your instructors didn't do a good job of picking their words. Jesus is part of the godhead. He wouldn't have been called Jesus, but he had the name-title of Jehovah. If you believe that Christ was the God of the Old Testament, then this creates no problem.

[Blackmarch]

Hi,

I'm a new member. I haven't yet read the entire Book of Mormon and am just beginning to read the Bible. I've done a little reading of the Torah. I've just been moved from Gospel Principles to Bible Study class.

I was really surprised to hear in Bible study that it wasn't God who gave the 10 Commandments to Moses, but Jesus. This really shook me up because these old scriptures were written in Hebrew, which I understand hasn't changed in thousands of years, unlike the New Testament which has been retranslated and changed numerous times. There are different Hebrew words for God depending on if he's being a merciful God or exacting justice. But I've never heard that the Jews were mistaken and that it was really not God they were talking about. Did I misunderstand? If not, is this just in the LDS church? Or have other Christian religions "rewritten/reinterpretted" the OT to include Jesus?

Not trying to get anyone upset with me, I'm really struggling with this.

Thanks in advance for being gentle.

No God did give the commandments, that is correct, Christ was just the one who was doing the talking and representing God in every facet.

The Jews during Christ's time also believed that it was the head God or God the Father that Abraham was talking to directly, which was why many were really pissed off when Christ said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (St John 8).. Basically Christ was saying, "hey i'm the guy that was talking to the prophets."

[livy111us]

This was also taught by leaders and scholars of the Church nearly 2,000 years ago:

And again, when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, "I am come down to deliver this people." (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:419, chap. 6, Irenaeus Against Heresies 180 AD)

For at that juncture, when Moses was ordered to go down into Egypt and lead out the people of the Israelites who were there, and while he was tending the flocks of his maternal uncle in the land of Arabia, our Christ conversed with him under the appearance of fire from a bush, and said, "Put off thy shoes, and draw near and hear." And he, when he had put off his shoes and drawn near, heard that he was to go down into Egypt and lead out the people of the Israelites there; and he received mighty power from Christ, who spoke to him in the appearance of fire, and went down and led out the people, having done great and marvellous things; which, if you desire to know, you will learn them accurately from his writings. (ANF 1:62, chap. 62 First Apology of Justin, 155 AD)

The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign...And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, "I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers," (ANF 1:184, chap. 63, First Apology of Justin 155 AD)

[vestig8or]

Thanks everyone. I found this and would like to know what you think of it. It's about the evolution of God in Mormon theology. I guess Joseph Smith didn't think that Jesus was Jehovah, but that the doctrine has changed beginning at the turn of the century. Interesting.

Is Jehovah Jesus or is he the same as Elohim?

[rameumptom]

Jehovah and Elohim are name-titles. Because of confusion, Elder James Talmage sought to clarify it by changing them into names specifically for Jesus and God, respectively. While it ends some confusion, it has opened up new issues and questions.

The key is that God the Father is over all things, and does all things through Christ. Whether God or Jesus speaks, it is the same thing.

[jlf9999]

Thanks everyone. I found this and would like to know what you think of it. It's about the evolution of God in Mormon theology. I guess Joseph Smith didn't think that Jesus was Jehovah, but that the doctrine has changed beginning at the turn of the century. Interesting.

Is Jehovah Jesus or is he the same as Elohim?

Be careful of what you read. Many non-Mormons profess to know what we believe and teach when in fact they are clueless. If you want to know, ask us. Read our doctrinal discussions not someone else's.

Many of us on this site and others tend to go beyond what many new folks are up to speed on. We have a saying: "milk before meat." Some of us forget that. May I suggest that you read the basics first. You can find them at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Mormon.org. If you want a deeper discussion you will find LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage helpful for some subjects. Another good source is Encyclopedia of Mormonism.

Of course you can always come back here but I think you will find that you will get a more thorough background faster at these other sites. Just remember that the best place to find out about our doctrine and theology is an official or quasi-official site. If active knowledgeable Mormons do not recognize the site then they are probably just gobbledygook.

Edited April 19, 2011 by jlf9999

[apexviper13]

Thanks everyone. I found this and would like to know what you think of it. It's about the evolution of God in Mormon theology. I guess Joseph Smith didn't think that Jesus was Jehovah, but that the doctrine has changed beginning at the turn of the century. Interesting.

Is Jehovah Jesus or is he the same as Elohim?

It depends on the context "Elohim" is used. "El" is what actually means God. If it's used alone it's singular but if there are plural verbs it is plural. If you want to make sure you use it in the singular way just use "Eloah". In other versions of the Old Testament you see the being talking from the burning bush with Moses is addressed as Elohim and in that sense it's referring to the God of Israel: Jesus. It's interchangeable. The scriptures address all three of the Godhead and states who they are. Anyway, I'll use scripture to clear up exactly who they are.

(Jesus praying)

John 17: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

In these verses you see it is Jesus himself that addresses God the Father as the only true God. Keep in mind this does not diminish the divinity of Christ. In fact, it shows how divine Jesus is by acknowledging the fact that he is the Son of the only true God. Also, there are verses where Jesus refers to the Father as "my God". You see this when he's on the cross, "my God my God why hast thou forsaken me" and when he told Mary he hasn't yet ascended to his and her (Mary) God. You see Jesus refer to the Father as "my God" but you never see the Father refer to Jesus in the same manner. In Hebrews 1 we see "Therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee." If you take the middle it would say the same thing. It would read as follows: "Therefore God hath anointed thee." This is the Father talking to Jesus.

Now to Jesus:

Psalms 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the Lord our God.

Jesus is described as the Son of God and our Lord our God. Many non-LDS will try to use this to say Jesus is the one true God even though it was Jesus himself that said the Father is. The reason he is referred to as "our" God is because we have to go through him to get to the Father.

Holy Ghost:

Throughout the entire Bible the Holy Ghost is addressed as the Holy Ghost, Spirit of God, and many other names.

To summarize this: God the Father is the only true God as Jesus said. Jesus Christ is the Son of God; he's also our Lord our God because it is by him that we will get to God the Father, the only true God. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God and bears witness to what is true. With all this being said, it makes you wonder why people created creeds and had to have councils to decide the nature of the Godhead. If people are going to believe in the trinity that was brought into Christianity by Constantine they can at least refer to it as the Godhead, the biblically correct term. Here's some history about the trinity. Constantine was a Pagan his whole life. He was never an official Christian until his death. He had declared that the trinity would become a Christian belief. The thing is the trinity's origin is in Paganism. The reason many early converts to Christianity voted for the trinity is because many of them converted from Paganism so it was a familiar doctrine to them. Also, many were killed because they refused to believe the doctrine Constantine incorporated into Christianity. Keep in mind that the trinity idea was non-existent in Christianity before Constantine said to make it a belief. People say that the way we believe is polytheistic. This is untrue. Polytheism is the worship of more than one God. We worship one: God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ.

[apexviper13]

Here's an interesting unbiased site:

Godhead, Not Trinity - Mormon Beliefs - ReligionFacts

Read what the links within this link says. While it says Jews recognizes the trinity as polytheistic, this site recognizes our belief about God as monotheistic.

[vestig8or]

I sure appreciate this discussion and generous offering of resources. Thanks so very much!

[apexviper13]

I sure appreciate this discussion and generous offering of resources. Thanks so very much!

I hope I helped a little.

[volgadon]

Here's an interesting unbiased site:

Godhead, Not Trinity - Mormon Beliefs - ReligionFacts

Read what the links within this link says. While it says Jews recognizes the trinity as polytheistic, this site recognizes our belief about God as monotheistic.

Lets be honest, for Judaism, both the Trinity and the LDS concept of Godhead are considered polytheism.

[vestig8or]

Had a wonderful discussion tonight with the man who teaches Gospel Principles class in my ward and who visits every month or so to check in. I've concluded that it's OK not to fully comprehend all the details and that I have a lot of Scripture to study and reflect upon. That's OK. :)

[Blackmarch]

Had a wonderful discussion tonight with the man who teaches Gospel Principles class in my ward and who visits every month or so to check in. I've concluded that it's OK not to fully comprehend all the details and that I have a lot of Scripture to study and reflect upon. That's OK. :)

Welcome to the club