D&c 77:6

[Bagnon]

How can the Old Earth Theory and LDS doctrine be true when the Lord specifically tells Joseph Smith that the Earth will only have a temporal existence of 7,000 years?

"Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?

A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence."

[slamjet]

D&C 77:7

Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed?

A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh.

Sounds like seven periods of human mortal existence on earth.

[Bagnon]

Yes there are 7 periods and each one is 1000 years. The final period will be the millennium.

I don't know why "intellectual" LDS are so quick to dismiss the scriptures.

[Netgood]

This has been a fallen world for millions of years, but the latest Adam was cast here 7,000 years ago.

[livy111us]

I think if you take it as symbolic, you could accept an old earth view. Just as in the book of Revelations, numbers rarely can be taken at face value. If D/C 77 was literal, then we would currently be in the millennium (even if you accept that our calendar system is off, it could not have been off but by a few years). Also, even if it was literal, it only gives the time since the fall of Adam and Eve. They could have been in the garden for millions of years and that would definitely qualify an "old earth."

No definitive LDS stance on evolution, study finds | Deseret News

D&C 77:6–7 . Why Was the Book Sealed That John Saw?

“‘The book which John saw’ represented the real history of the world—what the eye of God has seen, what the recording angel has written; and the seven thousand years, corresponding to the seven seals of the Apocalyptic volume, are as seven great days during which Mother Earth will fulfill her mortal mission, laboring six days and resting upon the seventh, her period of sanctification. These seven days do not include the period of our planet’s creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man. They are limited to Earth’s ‘temporal existence,’ that is, to Time, considered as distinct from Eternity.” (Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 11.)

"The Hebrew word for the number seven, sheva, is a word that represents the idea of fulness or perfection and may be part of the symbolism in John's account of his vision." [LDS Seminary Manual 1999, New Testament Student Study Guide, "The Revelation of Saint John the Divine,” notes for Rev 1, 5. [italics in original]]

The Hebrews, like many ancient peoples, did not only view numbers in the precise, mathematical terms to which we are accustomed. More often than not, the numbers which they used had a symbolic importance—thus, their choice of various numbers was not an effort to deceive or mislead, but to teach a truth in a powerful and striking way. For the Israelites, “ten” represented completeness, as did the number “three.” Thus, three tens: 10 x 10 x 10 is sort of like saying “completeness times completeness.” And, indeed, “one thousand” was a common expression connoting “a very large number.” [see Keith A. Burton, “Numbers,” in Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, edited by David Noel Freedman, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2000), 973–974.]

[Bagnon]

Nope.

When God created the world it was a paradise and he called it "good".

Adam introduced the fall.

If the the earth was fallen before Adam, then the Atonement would not restore it back to its "paradisaical glory".

[sirme33]

I think it is less 'symbolic' than you might think. Re-read Revelations... Christ doesn't come untill the begining of the seventh thousand years after much tribulation. We may very well be in the seventh seal now. By the way, just what does the half hour of silence mean? Half hour (21 years) of calm before the "stuff" hits the fan??? If that's the case we've used up half of our 'calm' time!

[skippy740]

How can the Old Earth Theory and LDS doctrine be true when the Lord specifically tells Joseph Smith that the Earth will only have a temporal existence of 7,000 years?

"Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?

A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence."

You have not read and understood the scriptures regarding the organization of the elements in the creation of the earth.

Let me give you a slighly different perspective that is scripturally based:

Abraham 4:1

Quote:

1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

Create, Creation

"To organize. God, working through his Son, Jesus Christ, organized the elements in nature to form the earth. Heavenly Father and Jesus created man in their image."

Let's speculate for a quick minute: the Earth was organized. From what? The matter around to be formed.

Ever hear about any scientific reports that claim that the Earth is billions of years old? They're right. But if these scientists are right, are the scriptures right? YES! Because the Earth was created with matter that was already in existance.

[Bagnon]

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33 - "The elements are eternal"

The earth was organized from pre-existing elements, just like our spirits were organized from pre-existing intelligence.

I can accept that the earth is old as we don't know how long before the fall it was created. But we do know from scripture that there was no death until about the last 6,000 years. I would like to see more saints stand up for this doctrine instead of being so quick to accept the scientific theory.

[skippy740]

Scientific theory and religous theory often have the same levels of passion behind them. One thinks they know and the other feels what they know.

Some wars aren't worth fighting. (I think a lot of LDS are still burnt out from Prop 8.)

[Guest tbaird22]

DC 77:6 refers to God's dealings with man, for a a good article about the age of the earth you can go here: Mormon Answers (LDS FAQ): Questions about Science and Mormon Views (Mormonism) and scroll to "age of the earth" it even talks specifically about dc 77:6

As for there being no death before the fall, some have taught there wasnt death before the fall and others have taught there was.

Mormonism and science/Death before the Fall - FAIRMormon

Elder Talmage said "These lived and died, age after age, while the earth was yet unfit for human habitation" AND "I cannot agree with your conception that there was no death of plants and animals anywhere upon this earth prior to the transgression of Adam, unless we assume that the history of Adam and Eve dates back many hundreds of thousands of years. The trouble with some theologians—even including many of our own good people—is that they undertake to fix the date of Adam's transgression as being approximately 4000 years before Christ and therefore about 5932 years ago. If Adam was placed upon the earth only that comparatively short time ago the rocks clearly demonstrated that life and death have been in existence and operative in this earth for ages prior to that time"

But as interesting as all that stuff is GUESS WHAT! its not pertinent to salvation.

[Bagnon]

I have an alternate theory, that the fall, the flood, the atonement, and all the sudden destructions that have befallen wicked nations have made the earth appear much older than it really is.

Additionally, atheist scientists who want the earth to be millions of years old to allow organic evolution to have had a chance have manipulated and intentionally misinterpreted data and set correction factors to skew aging studies to give the results they want.

[Netgood]

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33 - "The elements are eternal"

The earth was organized from pre-existing elements, just like our spirits were organized from pre-existing intelligence.

I can accept that the earth is old as we don't know how long before the fall it was created. But we do know from scripture that there was no death until about the last 6,000 years. I would like to see more saints stand up for this doctrine instead of being so quick to accept the scientific theory.

Science has proven that there has been death for millions of years on this earth. There is not disputing that this earth has been fallen for million of years.

[Netgood]

I have an alternate theory, that the fall, the flood, the atonement, and all the sudden destructions that have befallen wicked nations have made the earth appear much older than it really is.

Additionally, atheist scientists who want the earth to be millions of years old to allow organic evolution to have had a chance have manipulated and intentionally misinterpreted data and set correction factors to skew aging studies to give the results they want.

Are you also a believer in the crazy theory that we have fossils because the earth was made from other planets that had dead fossils in the material. Or do you believe that God buried fossils deep in the earth just for fun during the flood.

[Dravin]

Are you also a believer in the crazy theory that we have fossils because the earth was made from other planets that had dead fossils in the material. Or do you believe that God buried fossils deep in the earth just for fun during the flood.

Actually considering his post you quoted it sounds like he's in the "there is a cabal of scientists conspiring to lie about how the whole radiometric dating thang" camp. So he possibly believes they aren't anywhere old as such testing places them.

Edit: Which on further consideration is just a less specific version of "they're all from the flood".

Edited May 11, 2011 by Dravin

[Bagnon]

You guys probably believe dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. Perhaps you should check out what Mary Schweitzer discovered.

[Bagnon]

Teachings of Harold B. Lee, page 20 (an official publication of the Church) "Besides the Fall having had to do with Adam and Eve. . . all of the creation of animals, plants—all kinds of life were changed. The earth itself became subject to death. . .a change was wrought over the whole face of the creation, which up to that time had not been subject to death."

By the way, I emailed [email protected] and asked them if the information found in the Teachings of the Prophets series is considered official church doctrine. Their reply was that all published information goes through a review by general authorities, and that it was.

[Guest tbaird22]

Young-earth creationists also see Schweitzer’s work as revolutionary, but in an entirely different way. They first seized upon Schweitzer’s work after she wrote an article for the popular science magazine Earth in 1997 about possible red blood cells in her dinosaur specimens. Creation magazine claimed that Schweitzer’s research was “powerful testimony against the whole idea of dinosaurs living millions of years ago. It speaks volumes for the Bible’s account of a recent creation.”

This drives Schweitzer crazy. Geologists have established that the Hell Creek Formation, where B. rex was found, is 68 million years old, and so are the bones buried in it. She’s horrified that some Christians accuse her of hiding the true meaning of her data. “They treat you really bad,” she says. “They twist your words and they manipulate your data.”

Dinosaur Shocker | Science & Nature | Smithsonian Magazine

[Obolus]

I would like to see more saints stand up for this doctrine instead of being so quick to accept the scientific theory.

It'd be nice. But in truth, many Mormons don't yet have a testimony of it.

[Dravin]

It'd be nice. But in truth, many Mormons don't yet have a testimony of it.

And I doubt they (generally speaking) will (one way or the other) unless a crucible of some sort requires it of them. I imagine most people agree with the general idea behind a First Presidency Memo to general authorities (way back in 1931) that:

Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored Gospel to the people of the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church.

(Linky: Mormonism and science/Death before the Fall - FAIRMormon )

Edited May 12, 2011 by Dravin