On Melquisedec Priesthood

[Serg]

When did Peter, John and James came and ordained Smith and Cowdery?

Regards,

[Outshined]

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/priesth...estoration.html

The Prophet and Oliver Cowdery received the Aaronic Priesthood on May 15, 1829, under the hands of John the Baptist. He informed them that he acted under the direction of Peter, James, and John, who held the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood, and that that priesthood would be given to them (JS—H 1:72). Although the precise date of this restoration is not known, it is certain that it occurred after May 15, 1829, and before August 1830 (D&C 27:12). The documents available and the date of the formal organization of the Church give support to a time of restoration before April 6, 1830. Many students have concluded that late May or early June 1829 is the most probable time frame (HC 1:40n-42n; Porter, pp. 5-10).

Sometime before June 14, 1829, the Lord instructed Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery concerning their ordination as elders, which is a Melchizedek Priesthood office (HC 1:60-61). Furthermore, when Peter, James, and John appeared to Joseph and Oliver, they ordained them also as apostles (D&C 27:12) and committed to them "the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times" (D&C 128:20; cf. 27:13).

Several records document the occurrence and significance of this visitation. An early confirmation of the receipt of apostolic powers is evidenced in an 1829 revelation recorded in the hand of Oliver Cowdery in which the Lord stated, "I command all men every where to repent & I speak unto you even as unto Paul mine apostle for ye are called even with that same calling with which he was called" (Cowdery, 1829; cf. D&C 18:9). In his 1832 History of the Church the Prophet Joseph Smith declared that he had received "the holy Priesthood by the ministering Angels to administer the letter of the Gospel" and that he had been given "a confirmation and reception of the high Priesthood after the holy order of the son of the living God power and ordinance from on high to preach the Gospel in the administration and demonstration of the spirit the Keys of the Kingdom of God conferred upon him and the continuation of the blessings of God to him" (Jessee, p. 3).

Oliver Cowdery on many occasions bore witness that he "was present with Joseph when an holy angel from God came down from heaven and conferred, or restored, the Aaronic Priesthood and…was also present with Joseph when the Melchizedek Priesthood was conferred on each other, by the will and commandment of God" (Anderson, p. 22).

Joseph Smith said that Peter, James, and John made their visit "in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river" (D&C 128:20).

[Jason]

When did Peter, John and James came and ordained Smith and Cowdery?

Regards,

That's easy. Nobody knows.

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

When did Peter, John and James came and ordained Smith and Cowdery?

Regards,

That's easy. Nobody knows.

Jackpot!

[Jason]

Kind of a loaded question though. Why'd you ask when you knew the answer? Are you stirring up trouble Serg? Don't you have some missionaries or a bishop you can torture?

[Dr T]

What significance does that hold?

[Outshined]

What significance does that hold?

None.

[BenRaines]

Lets see. Here is another question. What day did Christ visit the Americas? Who knows. :)

[Outshined]

What day did Moses part the Red Sea?

[Palerider]

what day will the World end.........

[miztrniceguy]

what day will i win powerball?

[MBASS]

What day will I have extra money?

[Jason]

I think you guys are missing the point. Not only do we not know when Peter, James and John ordained Joseph to the Melchizedek priesthood, it's actually in question whether the event happened in the first place.

Go here, and learn a little: http://lds-mormon.com/mph.shtml

[CaptainTux]

what day will the World end.........

It will be a Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays.

[Dr T]

Just to be sure I understanding what you all are talking about, I have some questions. My understanding is that LDS church highly esteems "the priesthood" for various functions. Did Joseph Smith and other presidents ever indicate that the priesthood is vital/essential for certain things? If so, what? Next, if no one knows if/when it was passed to him, why is that not significant? It seems that if it did happen, he would talk about/document it in some way. What would the significance be if he didn’t possess the priesthood?

Thanks

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

what day will the World end.........

It will be a Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays.

Yes, but let them say what they use to say.

Of course, we dont know the day Moses parted the red sea(or see of Reeds), or the day you'll get extra money, or for the issue here, th eday the melquisedec priesthood was given, but then again we know the day that the lesser priesthood was given and the whole account....guess how's the importance of the melquisedec priesthood shown when only to th elesser one did Smith dedicate a narrative

regards,

[Outshined]

if no one knows if/when it was passed to him, why is that not significant?

It isn't; see my first post. The implication that since JS didn't write down a date the Melchezedic priesthood is somehow esteemed less than the Aaronic is absurd.

As for the event being "in question", again see my first post. I won't be so condescending as to tell you to "learn a little"...

[LionHeart]

Yes, but let them say what they use to say.

Of course, we dont know the day Moses parted the red sea(or see of Reeds), or the day you'll get extra money, or for the issue here, th eday the melquisedec priesthood was given, but then again we know the day that the lesser priesthood was given and the whole account....guess how's the importance of the melquisedec priesthood shown when only to th elesser one did Smith dedicate a narrative

regards,

I don't know the exact date but it was in June of 1829. Moreover, the absence of the exact date is meaningless. It in no way reflects the importance of the priesthood. Who knows? Perhaps the paper that had the date on it was among those destroyed by mobs. Or maybe they were so involved with other things that they didn't take note of the date. There could be a million possibilities, but the important thing is the fact that the priesthood was restored.

[LionHeart]

In one of the other threads, DR. T brought up the idea that where ever there is reasoning, there is an absence of faith. I have come across numerous situations in my life where things didn't add up. All reasoning told me that something was wrong. But in the end, I just had to ask myself: reasoning tells me such and such, but what does the spirit tell me? I came to the conclusion that the Lord puts these little things here to test our faith; to see if we will listen to our own reasoning or if we will listen to His spirit. His spirit is available, but it might be harder to hear and feel for someone who has become unaccustomed to how it feels. And depending on our own reasoning will make us numb to His spirit. According to 100% pure human reasoning, God doesn't even exist. Thus we have the saying "the natural man is an enemy to God."

[Dr T]

Hello LionHeart,

Just wanted to clarify. My point was not, as you said, "...where ever there is reasoning, there is an absence of faith."[sIC] That is a self defeating statement. What I mean is, you are proposing a belief through your statement of a (if it was) factual statement. See they can exist simultaneously. I am of teh opinion that even hard science requires faith. I never meant to imply that wherever there is reasoning there is an absence of faith at all. Sorry if I gave you that impression.

Dr. T

[Outshined]

Another article on the subject is HERE.

EDIT: Found another HERE.

[Dr T]

Hi Outshined,

Thank you for not being so condescending as to say something like that to me. I am trying to learn though. That is why I’m here and reading like crazy. Thanks for the other article. From this issue arises something that doesn’t sit well with me and does seem significant. As stated in that article,

On 22 September 1823 Moroni taught Joseph that “when they [the gold plates] are interpreted the Lord will give the holy priesthood to some, and they shall begin to proclaim this gospel and baptize by water, and after that they shall have power to give the Holy Ghost by the laying on of their hands.” 1

The first step toward fulfillment of that promise took place on 15 May 1829 while Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were in the process of bringing forth the Book of Mormon.

This “the first step” was in 1829. We read in D&C 84, 20-23 “no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live. (vs. 22)” The rub for me is that Joseph Smith’s vision of God the Father was in 1820. He didn’t die. Maybe I’m missing something but it doesn’t seem to add up.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Outshined]

That's a common question, and others have addressed it better than I can.

1. Joseph Smith stated that without the ordinances and authority of the priesthood no man can see the face of God and live (D & C 84:21, 22). He also said that he saw God in 1820 (Joseph Smith 2:17). Joseph Smith, however, never received any priesthood until 1829 (D & C 13:). How did he see God and survive? In which was he in error: his revelation in D & C 84:21, 22 or his experience in the grove?

A: Neither was in error. In this scripture (D & C 84:21, 22), Joseph Smith is actually repeating something that Moses said while trying to get his people, who did have access to the priesthood and ordinances, to become sanctified so they could 'behold the face of God" (See verse 23).

Also, the Lord made it a requirement, at the time he gave this revelation, that a man must hold the priesthood and have received its ordinances in order to see God. The Lord said: "this revelation...is in force from this very hour upon all the world..."(D&C 84:75). This would mean that prior to this revelation, neither the priesthood nor its ordinances were necessary for a man to see the face of God and live. When Joseph Smith went into the grove to pray, he had not been ordained to the priesthood by someone on the earth, neither had he received any of the ordinances. When the two personages appeared they forgave him of his sins, making it possible for Joseph to see the face of God and live.

In 1966 Joseph Fielding Smith had this to say:

If you will look at the date of this revelation, you will discover that it was given in September 1832, which was two years after the organization of the Church and several years after the appearance of the Father and the Son to the Prophet Joseph Smith. Therefore, permit me to emphasize this fact: There is no law or commandment which declares that the Father could not appear to a man in person when the Holy Priesthood was not among men on the earth. In this day when the divine authority is here and men are appointed to officiate in its ordinances, there is no occasion for the Father to come to any man who has no divine authority. At a time when the priesthood is conferred, and there are authorized servants who bear divine authority, there could hardly arise a time when the Father and the Son should have occasion to appear to any man who was without that authority.

There are also other scriptural passages which indicate a person must have qualities other than the priesthood to see God. The Doctrine & Covenants states: "No man hath seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God" After all is said and done, we find several aspects to the subject of seeing God. No doubt today men must hold the priesthood to see God, but prior to the restoration of the Priesthood, this was not necessarily so. At the time of the First Vision, what was required to see God was humility, faith, and the spirit of God.

http://www.mormonhaven.com/priest.htm

[Jason]

Outshined and Dr. T,

I wasn't speaking to either of you with my "learn a little" comment. Especially you Outshined. I know you're smart enough to have come across this before.

[Outshined]

Outshined and Dr. T,

I wasn't speaking to either of you with my "learn a little" comment. Especially you Outshined. I know you're smart enough to have come across this before.

That's cool. One of the problems with message boards is that you can't hear someone's tone, and sometimes it's possible to misread a post's intention. B)