Virginity

[JohnTaylor1886]

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61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood-if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

I think it's all pretty clear.

So, if he sleeps with someone NOT espoused to him.... what then? Does that free the virgins who were espoused to him to marry another? Kind of cruel to me that the female could stay true to her vows and then go to another man when her marriage was defiled by a cheating husband and

But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed;

DESTROYED? sheeeesh

You have to look at the context in which this scripture was given. I recognize it from D&C 132, the very section that described the law of Celestial Plural Marriage (CPM). Yes, on the surface, it does seem unfair. But then you have to ask yourself the following questions:

How did people marry originally?

By consummation. Nowhere in the scriptures is there any mention of a big wedding ceremony or elaborate vows being spoken. In fact, Abraham and Jacob were told by their wives to sleep with their handmaidens to raise up children. See D&C 132:34. By virtue of the fact that they slept with them, that very act raised them to the status of wives. Now, if a man goes and sleeps with another woman who is already espoused, yes that spells adultery and also spells bigtime trouble. That would also explain the injunction that Moses gave regarding a man who rapes a virgin...she becomes his spouse, and he cannot put her away ever (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). On top of that, for humbling her, as the scriptures put it, he had to be fined 50 shekels of silver. How much is that? Well, the only record we have of its weight was during the Intertestamental period. 50 shekels was around 750 grams, which is about 1.67 lbs of silver (avoirdupois). That is a good bit of silver to pay.

Why the inequality?

Inequality is a relative term. Granted, it does not seem fair that the man can have other women and the woman has to stay true to the man. However, you have to step back and look at the big picture. What was the law of CPM? I do not mean this in a rude or dour way, but it would help to read all of Section 132 and then couple it with the understanding of the Old Testament. Once a man and a woman consummate, they are husband and wife. Furthermore, there are injunctions against the husband as well. He has to treat all of his wives and children equally (Deuteronomy 21:15-17). He also has the obligation of providing for all within his household, otherwise he is worse off than an infidel (I Timothy 5:8).

It is a simple matter, really. The husband has to learn to judge equally and fairly, as well as provide for his own children. If we expect to become like our Heavenly Father, we will have to learn to do the same exact thing here on earth.

[Lindy]

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What's there to explain? Have you ever heard of a young man who commits fornication in Islam being put to death? It might happen but I have not heard of it. However, in some Islamic nations if a couple is caught in adultery both are killed.

There are Christian extremists on the web, just as there are Muslim ones. I do know that there are highly educated, moderate Muslims who could explain why the radicals are the way they are, and why they do not represent mainstream Islam. Something interesting I found on Wikipedia.... that "In some Muslim countries, polygamy is relatively common, while in most others, it is often rare or non-existent" Seems that The Qur'an allows a man to have up to four wives "at any one time". With their holy book allowing polygamy, Question is..if your religion allows more than one wife.... why sleep with a female and take her honor if you can just marry her and add her to your collection? Geez I wish we had an educated moderate Muslim on board to answer some questions.

The reason for jumping into this thread with this is not to chastize Muslims but to point out that many people see issues like virginity as just some trivial thing but in much of the world it is still very important. We should teach our children to remain virgins until marriage -- while if they do foul up at least here they can repent though (well, unless they get some fatal disease and die -- in which case I suppose they can get forgiveness, but they still have to suffer the physical fate).

I agree, and I guess I did sound very chastizing when I think of it... but I think I'm more curious to their reasoning of what is right and what is wrong when it comes to the honor of a male vs females. I will stand up for what I think is right however

If you point was simply to show that some religionists take virginity and sexual purity very seriously versus our cavalier society, then, sure, we need to take it very seriously. I'm still thinking my Protestant monastary for young girls is a good idea.

I thought that was the whole point of the thread... how seriously are we to take sexual purity and virginity? I think it should be taken very seriously...but not to the point of honor sucide or honor killings.

Oh, if the world today would still look on " Once a man and a woman consummate, they are husband and wife. " and let that be law.... I think that the male population would think twice before they thought about that little romp in the back seat of the Chevy. MHO I mean really.... how many men honestly take the time to think about what "consummation" really means to a woman? It's binding one person to another. In heart, mind and body.

I'm done rambling for today.... peace out

PS......PC LOL... isn't a monastary for young girls called a "nunnery" or Abbey? I think that someone beat you to that idea.....

[Enoch]

I will only marry a virgin.

[Dror]

I will only marry a virgin.

Why? I married a divorced person, and we love each other very much.

[Dr T]

Hi Enoch,

Why such strong convictions about that?

[john doe]

I will only marry a virgin.

Why? Don't you believe in repentance and the atonement?

[miztrniceguy]

I will only marry a virgin.

i married a virgin, but my wife didnt

[Fiannan]

Fiannan,

Where was she? Did she have to leave because of that?

Regarding the lesbian nun (sounds like something you might see as a series on one of the three traditional networks) she quit, and I gess she was strongly implying that this meant leaving a place with lots of other lesbian nuns.

You know what's ironic though? From a strict definition of virginity a girl who lives as a lesbian is technically a virgin until she has sex with a man. Wonder if Enoch would consider a woman who was what is now being termed a "hasbian" if she joined the Church and gave up lesbianism?

[miztrniceguy]

Fiannan,

Where was she? Did she have to leave because of that?

Regarding the lesbian nun (sounds like something you might see as a series on one of the three traditional networks) she quit, and I gess she was strongly implying that this meant leaving a place with lots of other lesbian nuns.

You know what's ironic though? From a strict definition of virginity a girl who lives as a lesbian is technically a virgin until she has sex with a man. Wonder if Enoch would consider a woman who was what is now being termed a "hasbian" if she joined the Church and gave up lesbianism?

maybe she's a Wasbian

[Lindy]

ROFL