Laman And Lemuel

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Mar 5 2004, 02:41 PM

Well even we we get increased responsibilities in return for being given "proof" for the existence of God in the form of miracles...why don't all skeptics get that opportunity...maybe they would accept the responsibility?

Maybe some would be willing to take on those responsibilities?

Of course, if that responsibility includes suffering for the rest of my life, I'll stick with good old fashioned "hope" instead of faith

Yeah. I think we got the sweeter deal!

[Jenda]

Are you sure that witnessing or participating in a miracle would give you what you need? After all, Laman and Lemuel were party to many miracles, and that did nothing for their faith.

Also, Christ said,

Matthew 5:1-3 IV

1 And Jesus, seeing the multitudes, went up into a mountain; and when he was set down, his disciples came unto him;

2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3 Blessed are they who shall believe on me; and again, more blessed are they who shall believe on your words, when ye shall testify that ye have seen me and that I am.

This scripture seems to indicate that those who have faith without seeing miracles, etc., is better than those who require it.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 5 2004, 04:50 PM

Are you sure that witnessing or participating in a miracle would give you what you need? After all, Laman and Lemuel were party to many miracles, and that did nothing for their faith.

There is one important difference. Laman and Lemuel were stupid.

If I saw those miracles, I would become a TRUE BELIEVER.

This scripture seems to indicate that those who have faith without seeing miracles, etc., is better than those who require it.

Yea, that sounds like what PD said. We are better off not having to go through the suffering and responsibilies of people who KNOW God exists.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Mar 5 2004, 06:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Mar 5 2004, 06:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 5 2004, 04:50 PM

Are you sure that witnessing or participating in a miracle would give you what you need?  After all, Laman and Lemuel were party to many miracles, and that did nothing for their faith.

There is one important difference. Laman and Lemuel were stupid.

If I saw those miracles, I would become a TRUE BELIEVER.

This scripture seems to indicate that those who have faith without seeing miracles, etc., is better than those who require it.

Yea, that sounds like what PD said. We are better off not having to go through the suffering and responsibilies of people who KNOW God exists.

Oh, don't be so quick to judge Laman and Lemuel, are you honestly telling me that if the Lord Jesus Christ or an angel of God appeared to you and commanded you to seek out the counsel of the Holy Ghost and it would lead you to the tru church and to believe and fullfill the will of God you would do as instructed? Also, I have come to learn that we all have different compacities. And our job is not to contend, nor compete with one another, but to fullfill our own capacity. Im not gonna try to be as strong of a person as President Hinckley and accomplish all that he has, unless I am foreordained with that capability. Those who can believe without seeing do recieve the benefit of more blessings than those who must tempt the Lord for a sign. Here's a very temporal yet effective analogy. In football you usually have a big team, 50+. Now of course in the NFL it's the studs and stars that get the big contracts and the SportsCenter Spotlight, but in Celestial Football...different story. We have all been called to perform a certain task, regardless of what it may be. Now if our calling correlates to a 3rd string bench spot, just as long as we are doing our best, we still gonna get the Bling Bling when we pass on(of course to play for Christ is to play for the winning team). No matter how small we are called, the Lord sayed he would also make small things great.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Mar 5 2004, 11:07 AM

I suppose because of my own skepticism, I can relate to Laman and Lemuel.

On the other hand, like "Doubting Thomas", they were being offered proof to base their faith on.

I'm still bitter about the fact that Thomas, Laman, Lemuel, etc. all got proof to base their faith on...even if Laman and Lemuel ignored that proof.

They were given proof...basically an opportunity to gain faith very easily and get a free ride to Heaven...and here I am...I have to sit here and listen to people tell me I don't need proof...that I should just have faith WITHOUT proof.

No fair!

Seeing or receiving proof can sometimes be more damaging eternally.

And if you really need proof...not just want it...it will eventually come when you least expect it.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Mar 5 2004, 05:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Mar 5 2004, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 5 2004, 04:50 PM

Are you sure that witnessing or participating in a miracle would give you what you need?  After all, Laman and Lemuel were party to many miracles, and that did nothing for their faith.

There is one important difference. Laman and Lemuel were stupid.

If I saw those miracles, I would become a TRUE BELIEVER.

This scripture seems to indicate that those who have faith without seeing miracles, etc., is better than those who require it.

Yea, that sounds like what PD said. We are better off not having to go through the suffering and responsibilies of people who KNOW God exists.

It is true.

[Franken]

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 3 2004, 02:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 3 2004, 02:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Franken@Mar 3 2004, 12:02 AM

Seriously, these two never cease to amaze me.  How thick headed can you get?  Just from reading in march madness and talking about it in seminary, these two have been forgiven so many times but yet still rebel against the lord.  Even seeing an Angel didn't totally convince them.

I think it's cool how like whenever they do something to Nephi and they realize they are wrong and ask for forgiveness, Nephi is just like "I forgive you" completely instantly.  A second thought doesn't even cross his mind.  That's really cool to me considering all the stuff that they did to him, I mean they threatened to kill him and he still loves them as much as he did before, Nephi is awesome!  Anyone got any particular comments?

Laman and Lemuel don't behave like normal first and second borns. I think there was more to their behavior than just bad choices. I think they had to have been severely learning disabled. I actually know a guy who who's impulsive behavior reminds me of these guys. He had a beautiful, perfect wife who was everything any man could have wanted and he still cheated on her because he couldn't control himself. He threw away everything good in his life because he couldn't control his impulses. I think this is what Laman and Lemuel must have been like.

Yeah, I suppose the way they were could have affected things. But I strongly think that no matter who you are God will not let your trials exceed that of your capacity to handle them. It bugs when people sin and they say, "Satan was forcing me too, I couldn't stop him." Sure, it might have been very hard, but he wasn't forcing you to do anything. There is always a way out, I've had some of my friends tell me that they can't control theirselves, but it's not true, I've seen proof that they can. I agree, that is a wonderful analogy, but I don't think it was because that man couldn't control his impulses, but that he didn't have a complete desire to do so. Change can only come becuase of desire, not of expectations from others or anything like that. Agency, what an elaborate idea.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Franken+Mar 6 2004, 07:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Franken @ Mar 6 2004, 07:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -curvette@Mar 3 2004, 02:12 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Franken@Mar 3 2004, 12:02 AM

Seriously, these two never cease to amaze me.  How thick headed can you get?  Just from reading in march madness and talking about it in seminary, these two have been forgiven so many times but yet still rebel against the lord.  Even seeing an Angel didn't totally convince them.

I think it's cool how like whenever they do something to Nephi and they realize they are wrong and ask for forgiveness, Nephi is just like "I forgive you" completely instantly.  A second thought doesn't even cross his mind.  That's really cool to me considering all the stuff that they did to him, I mean they threatened to kill him and he still loves them as much as he did before, Nephi is awesome!  Anyone got any particular comments?

Laman and Lemuel don't behave like normal first and second borns. I think there was more to their behavior than just bad choices. I think they had to have been severely learning disabled. I actually know a guy who who's impulsive behavior reminds me of these guys. He had a beautiful, perfect wife who was everything any man could have wanted and he still cheated on her because he couldn't control himself. He threw away everything good in his life because he couldn't control his impulses. I think this is what Laman and Lemuel must have been like.

Yeah, I suppose the way they were could have affected things. But I strongly think that no matter who you are God will not let your trials exceed that of your capacity to handle them. It bugs when people sin and they say, "Satan was forcing me too, I couldn't stop him." Sure, it might have been very hard, but he wasn't forcing you to do anything. There is always a way out, I've had some of my friends tell me that they can't control theirselves, but it's not true, I've seen proof that they can. I agree, that is a wonderful analogy, but I don't think it was because that man couldn't control his impulses, but that he didn't have a complete desire to do so. Change can only come becuase of desire, not of expectations from others or anything like that. Agency, what an elaborate idea.

I agree that people CAN control most of their impulses. Is it practical to think they ever will? Even Jesus had a little trouble with that, didn't he? Controling his anger with the money changers?

[porterrockwell]

Jesus was perfect, he gave heed to no temptation. We do not challenge the acts done of God through the Lamb. You sound like one of those people who applauded the movie "The Last Temptation of Christ"! What a despicable, slanderous movie.

[Cal]

So, how do we interpret Jesus' behavior when he turned over the tables of the money changers in the temple--- was there anger there? If so, does that mean its ok to vent our anger with acts of physical violence? Help me out on this, will you? I didn't write the NT.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 6 2004, 10:50 PM

Jesus was perfect, he gave heed to no temptation. We do not challenge the acts done of God through the Lamb. You sound like one of those people who applauded the movie "The Last Temptation of Christ"! What a despicable, slanderous movie.

You saw that? Shame on you!

[Cal]

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 7 2004, 11:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 7 2004, 11:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 6 2004, 10:50 PM

Jesus was perfect, he gave heed to no temptation.  We do not challenge the acts done of God through the Lamb.  You sound like one of those people who applauded the movie "The Last Temptation of Christ"!  What a despicable, slanderous movie.

You saw that? Shame on you!

Porter--does "perfect" mean you never get angry?

[Guest Starsky]

I agree that people CAN control most of their impulses. Is it practical to think they ever will? Even Jesus had a little trouble with that, didn't he? Controling his anger with the money changers?

Actually, Jesus was trying to make a point .... a very important point...and doing it the way he did, was maybe the only way they would get the point deep enough to be held accountable.

I wonder what the word was that they used to interpret the 'anger' from. Maybe it was spiritual anxiety for the people who were desecrating the temple...

I know I get 'upset' when my kids are doing something that could be harmful to them,...

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 7 2004, 02:10 PM

I agree that people CAN control most of their impulses. Is it practical to think they ever will? Even Jesus had a little trouble with that, didn't he? Controling his anger with the money changers?

Actually, Jesus was trying to make a point .... a very important point...and doing it the way he did, was maybe the only way they would get the point deep enough to be held accountable.

I wonder what the word was that they used to interpret the 'anger' from. Maybe it was spiritual anxiety for the people who were desecrating the temple...

I know I get 'upset' when my kids are doing something that could be harmful to them,...

So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 7 2004, 03:14 PM

So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

Maybe this helps shed some light on this:

"that which ye call anger was the truth..." 2 Nephi 1:26

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 7 2004, 02:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 7 2004, 02:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 7 2004, 02:10 PM

I agree that people CAN control most of their impulses. Is it practical to think they ever will? Even Jesus had a little trouble with that, didn't he? Controling his anger with the money changers?

Actually, Jesus was trying to make a point .... a very important point...and doing it the way he did, was maybe the only way they would get the point deep enough to be held accountable.

I wonder what the word was that they used to interpret the 'anger' from. Maybe it was spiritual anxiety for the people who were desecrating the temple...

I know I get 'upset' when my kids are doing something that could be harmful to them,...

So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

If you are God....Y~E~A~H!

[Cal]

Originally posted by Behunin+Mar 7 2004, 03:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Behunin @ Mar 7 2004, 03:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 7 2004, 03:14 PM

So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

Maybe this helps shed some light on this:

"that which ye call anger was the truth..." 2 Nephi 1:26

It sheds no light. Please elaborate. But first, how about answering my question: So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Behunin+Mar 7 2004, 03:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Behunin @ Mar 7 2004, 03:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 7 2004, 03:14 PM

So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

Maybe this helps shed some light on this:

"that which ye call anger was the truth..." 2 Nephi 1:26

Wonderful Behunin!

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace+Mar 7 2004, 04:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Mar 7 2004, 04:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Behunin@Mar 7 2004, 03:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 7 2004, 03:14 PM

So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

Maybe this helps shed some light on this:

"that which ye call anger was the truth..." 2 Nephi 1:26

Wonderful Behunin!

Was this refering to Jesus' anger in the temple?

[Guest Starsky]

So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

Maybe this helps shed some light on this:

"that which ye call anger was the truth..." 2 Nephi 1:26

It sheds no light. Please elaborate. But first, how about answering my question: So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

If you have a small child who runs into the street and you have told him and told him not to, and then one day he nearly gets hit by a car....what do you do next?

Personally, I would spank the child and not let him go outside for a week (more punishment for me than him btw) and by the time he is begging for another chance to go outside...he has learned his lesson...very important...important enough to get angry....

Now...as to getting angry at just anything....ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! THAT WOULD BE STUPID....but Christ picked and chose the time he would show anger...it had to be absolutely the most important thing...which it was...

Now...did he get angry when the 'dudes' were always trying to trip him up during his teaching moments? NO! Did he get upset when he was arrested and tortured? NO!!! Absolutely NOT!

So get a grip and stop your silly generalizations....life is full of different problems which has to be handled with different reactions and solutions.

My husband used to get mad at everything...at the same level mad for not making a bed, as running out in the street...

I used to say...you only have one mad....if your kid was going to rape someone, you would yell with the same loud angry voice as you would yell for not doing the dishes...

Christ didn't yell at everything....Actually, he didn't show a whole lot of anger over his three year ministries....and he had a lot of provocation to yell a lot...but he didn't.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 7 2004, 05:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 7 2004, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Behunin@Mar 7 2004, 03:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 7 2004, 03:14 PM

So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

Maybe this helps shed some light on this:

"that which ye call anger was the truth..." 2 Nephi 1:26

It sheds no light. Please elaborate. But first, how about answering my question: So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

John 1:5

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Behunin@Mar 7 2004, 04:56 PM

So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

Maybe this helps shed some light on this:

"that which ye call anger was the truth..." 2 Nephi 1:26

It sheds no light. Please elaborate. But first, how about answering my question: So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

John 1:5

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

[Cal]

So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

Maybe this helps shed some light on this:

"that which ye call anger was the truth..." 2 Nephi 1:26

It sheds no light. Please elaborate. But first, how about answering my question: So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

John 1:5

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

How about stop talking in riddles, and answer the question. (by the way, the scriptures you are citing are vague generalizations that can apply to almost any situation. Here we are talking about the proper expression of anger, and in particular whether or not Jesus' expression of it was an example we all should follow. ie. If I think the lady in Target is short changing me, should I turn over the cash register?

Peace--what happened to your new "voice of reason"---jump in any time.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 7 2004, 05:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 7 2004, 05:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Behunin@Mar 7 2004, 03:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 7 2004, 03:14 PM

So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

Maybe this helps shed some light on this:

"that which ye call anger was the truth..." 2 Nephi 1:26

It sheds no light. Please elaborate. But first, how about answering my question: So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

I thought it was kind of odd that the "wrath of God" was so prevalent while we are also taught ""God is love." 1 John 4:8.

The anger or wrath appears to be how the natural man perceives the Lord because the scriptures also teach: "Fury is not in me..." Isaiah 27:4. The anger and fury is in man. This is further confirmed in the Book of Mormon: "the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center." 1 Nephi 16:2 as well as 2 Nephi 1:26.

It is OUR anger at the truth. Man is asleep; he can wake up and accept the truth or he can get ticked off and stay asleep.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Behunin@Mar 7 2004, 05:34 PM

So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

Maybe this helps shed some light on this:

"that which ye call anger was the truth..." 2 Nephi 1:26

It sheds no light. Please elaborate. But first, how about answering my question: So getting angry and acting on it is ok, as long as you can justify your cause?

I thought it was kind of odd that the "wrath of God" was so prevalent while we are also taught ""God is love." 1 John 4:8.

The anger or wrath appears to be how the natural man perceives the Lord because the scriptures also teach: "Fury is not in me..." Isaiah 27:4. The anger and fury is in man. This is further confirmed in the Book of Mormon: "the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center." 1 Nephi 16:2 as well as 2 Nephi 1:26.

It is OUR anger at the truth. Man is asleep; he can wake up and accept the truth or he can get ticked off and stay asleep.

Yeah, but it was JESUS that turned over the tables in the temple!