porterrockwell Posted March 11, 2004 Report Posted March 11, 2004 "Sex" outside the bonds of marriage is base and carnally minded. Carnal lust is that which is in opposition to Eternal. Celestial law doesn't require us to be celebit(not spelled right) monks, it only gives us the path by which we shall have Eternal Life. Happiness of the flesh is not what we are here for. If happiness of the flesh is all you are after, then hard work isn't good, anything that causes pain isn't good. Using the flesh as a barometer by which you live your life is foolish. What if raping someone makes that person feel happy, or doing heroin. What if slitting someones wrists and then seeing how much they can bleed before they call 911 is making them happy. You can't DESIRE to live by some of one law, and a little of the other. For no man can serve two masters. i don't think it was as wise to say that Scott has chosen not have Christ in his life. But he said very clearly,"Don't think it is you who have chosen me, for it is I who have chosen you".(not verbatum) Quote
sgallan Posted March 11, 2004 Report Posted March 11, 2004 My impression (correct me if I am wrong) is that "carnal lusts" is just a general term for indulging in everything physical that makes you happy, even if it has bad consequences. **** Now that is pretty broad term.... Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by sgallan@Mar 11 2004, 02:51 PM My impression (correct me if I am wrong) is that "carnal lusts" is just a general term for indulging in everything physical that makes you happy, even if it has bad consequences. ****Now that is pretty broad term.... Maybe a better definition would be relying totally on physical things to make you happy, regardless of the consequences, in excess...or a lack of moderation in physical pleasure.Moderation in all things is good...in my opinion.Back to the original quote I was addressing...Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 07:55 PM And I am saying that I don't like the fact that some have chosen base, worldly values, and conciously refute LDS beliefs because it calls to attention the inappropriate(or lack there-of)values of said persons lifestyle. And that I am considered to be self-righteous because I want to be the best person I can possibly be. My intent and your perception are two very different things. I don't look down on others for choosing to indulge in their carnal lusts, but I do not agree with them, nor do I take exception to them... My point was that I believe that someone who lives righteously is one who lives a life of moderation.But Christ is not required to achieve that level of moderation. Christ is just one way to that goal.Therefore it is unfair to consider a person morally inferior for not accepting Christ. Quote
Snow Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by Peace@Mar 11 2004, 05:36 PM pretty broad are you sure? Yes, deep down in my heart of hearts, I would have to say that I have carnally lusted after many a pretty broad... as well as quite a few cultured young lasses... Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 My point was that I believe that someone who lives righteously is one who lives a life of moderation.But Christ is not required to achieve that level of moderation. Christ is just one way to that goal.Therefore it is unfair to consider a person morally inferior for not accepting Christ.Salvation or Exaltation is another story (if you are Christian, Christ is required for these things).But it is a misconception that everyone who does not believe in the LDS Gospel...or those who leave the Church...are living lives of carnal lust. Quote
porterrockwell Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by Snow+Mar 11 2004, 06:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 11 2004, 06:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 11 2004, 05:36 PM pretty broad are you sure? Yes, deep down in my heart of hearts, I would have to say that I have carnally lusted after many a pretty broad... as well as quite a few cultured young lasses... As have many, including myself. But that is why we have the atonement. I don't know where I would be without sacrament. The opportunity to renew baptismal covenants and pursue the straight and narrow is so awesome, I just don't want those who are without it, who are seeking it, to go without. I agree that one can still be righteous without the church, but in order to fullfill all righteousness, one must when given the truth accept it. I just see so many people that DO believe, yet fall away because they percieve it to be an overwhelming task. Those in this mentality that I am most adament with. Quote
porterrockwell Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Mar 11 2004, 06:52 PM My point was that I believe that someone who lives righteously is one who lives a life of moderation.But Christ is not required to achieve that level of moderation. Christ is just one way to that goal.Therefore it is unfair to consider a person morally inferior for not accepting Christ.Salvation or Exaltation is another story (if you are Christian, Christ is required for these things).But it is a misconception that everyone who does not believe in the LDS Gospel...or those who leave the Church...are living lives of carnal lust. I agree, in fact, there are people outside the Church who when compared to myself would make me look like a spiritual sive. If that is the way I come across, I do apologize. However, those whom I have come to know that are "Christian" do not have regard for morals or righteousness, they see God as a get out jail free card. But we can only truly utilize the atonement when we are working for that which will perfect us. Which is Christ in our countenance. Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 05:52 PM I agree that one can still be righteous without the church I'm glad you agree with me on this...I was a bit concerned about your line of thinking.but in order to fullfill all righteousness, one must when given the truth accept it. I just see so many people that DO believe, yet fall away because they percieve it to be an overwhelming task. Those in this mentality that I am most adament with.The problem is in recognizing the truth when it is presented to us. Stories of mythical proportions involving miracles and deities can be hard to swallow, when one is very scientific in their thinking. I think God wants us to be logical...but the catch is that to believe in Him, we must abandon logic to some degree, and just choose to believe.When given so many options for religion, how can I choose...how can I know which one is the truth?I know the standard answer is "sincere prayer". But it doesn't seem to work for everyone. Quote
sgallan Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 are you sure? **** What Snow said.... Quote
sgallan Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 *** Maybe a better definition would be relying totally on physical things to make you happy, regardless of the consequences, in excess...or a lack of moderation in physical pleasure. *** Well that sort of leaves me out of the picture. Well, I do work out an awful lot. And it does give me a lot of physical pleasure. Does that count? Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 05:56 PM However, those whom I have come to know that are "Christian" do not have regard for morals or righteousness, they see God as a get out jail free card. But we can only truly utilize the atonement when we are working for that which will perfect us. Which is Christ in our countenance. I'll agree with you there. Christianity that is totally based on faith, and not on self-improvement, is basically expecting a free ride to Heaven. If there is a God, I like to think that we will be judged depending on how we lived our lives...not just our actions, but also our thoughts. And I hope that we will not be judged on what doctrines we believed in.If we were judged completely on faith, then Heaven would have faithful believers there...but it would also be full of lazy people (those who wanted a free ride) and gullible people (those who believed the Gospel because they just believe everything they are told by their parents, bishop, etc.). Meanwhile, good, rational people are in Hell. A fair God would not do this. Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by sgallan@Mar 11 2004, 06:01 PM *** Maybe a better definition would be relying totally on physical things to make you happy, regardless of the consequences, in excess...or a lack of moderation in physical pleasure. ***Well that sort of leaves me out of the picture. Well, I do work out an awful lot. And it does give me a lot of physical pleasure. Does that count? Leave's you out of what picture? Quote
porterrockwell Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Mar 11 2004, 06:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Mar 11 2004, 06:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 05:52 PM I agree that one can still be righteous without the church I'm glad you agree with me on this...I was a bit concerned about your line of thinking.but in order to fullfill all righteousness, one must when given the truth accept it. I just see so many people that DO believe, yet fall away because they percieve it to be an overwhelming task. Those in this mentality that I am most adament with.The problem is in recognizing the truth when it is presented to us. Stories of mythical proportions involving miracles and deities can be hard to swallow, when one is very scientific in their thinking. I think God wants us to be logical...but the catch is that to believe in Him, we must abandon logic to some degree, and just choose to believe.When given so many options for religion, how can I choose...how can I know which one is the truth?I know the standard answer is "sincere prayer". But it doesn't seem to work for everyone. I personally allow logic to coincide with the Holy Ghost, that way discernment is clear and directive instead of confusing. I agree as well about recognizing truth, I am not saying that once you have read it you HAVE to accept it. Again, I am just around so many that know the truth, but want to have the truth and still indulge themselves. That is what I am refering to. Plus, as I have said many times, I don't struggle with the truth, or the spirit. I have been blessed with the ability to discern. I KNOW when I do something wrong, when I am being rebellious, when I am playing semantics to justify my own personal desire or reasoning. So I guess what would help me is to understand the perspective of those on the other end of the spectrum. Quote
porterrockwell Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Mar 11 2004, 07:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Mar 11 2004, 07:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 05:56 PM However, those whom I have come to know that are "Christian" do not have regard for morals or righteousness, they see God as a get out jail free card. But we can only truly utilize the atonement when we are working for that which will perfect us. Which is Christ in our countenance. I'll agree with you there. Christianity that is totally based on faith, and not on self-improvement, is basically expecting a free ride to Heaven. If there is a God, I like to think that we will be judged depending on how we lived our lives...not just our actions, but also our thoughts. And I hope that we will not be judged on what doctrines we believed in.If we were judged completely on faith, then Heaven would have faithful believers there...but it would also be full of lazy people (those who wanted a free ride) and gullible people (those who believed the Gospel because they just believe everything they are told by their parents, bishop, etc.). Meanwhile, good, rational people are in Hell. A fair God would not do this. That first statement about "totally based on faith" and a "free ride to heaven" is music to my ears. Very well put.I also agree with your second statement. Noone should do something without conviction or desire. Absolutely. There is a person who is absolutely one of the most important people in my life. His name is Bro. T(Thompson). Big Ol' Oklahoma boy(about 50). He was my sunday school teacher for about 3 or 4 years. The first sunday he came in he said, "Im not gonna use much of the manual, and I don't make a ton of scriptural reference."That first of all had everyone perked up and on the edge of there seats ready to hear more.Next he said,"Unlike most teachers, and some of your parents are gonna get offended when they hear this, but if you don't want to be here, I don't want to see you hear. If you feel you have something you feel is more worth your time, you should be out doing that then sitting in church"I have never seen that many eyes widen and jaws drop before in one room."I am also not here to tell you what you can and can't do, if you think you need to do something, then you should do it." Again, all dumbfounded...I think the sentiment was,"Is he for real?""While I'm not gonna tell you what to do, I am gonna tell you what the consequences are of doing those things, so that you can discern for yourself." Pretty powerful teacher if you ask me!And while I don't believe you should do something JUST because someone tells you to. Once you know the source of that instruction is of absolute truth and authority(from GOD), there is no reason to stray from the enticings of that council. Which is kind of at the point where personally I am now.I also don't believe that Mainstream Christian's perception, or concept of hell is right on. Unless you for some reason deny the God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost having perfect knowledge of them, all will have immortality. Even those truly wicked will dwell in some form of paradise(telestial kingdom). Outer Darkness is reserved for those who truly forsake their 2nd estate. and OD is still a very hair topic, because I don't believe very many will have the opportunity to be a special witness to Christ. Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 06:14 PM I personally allow logic to coincide with the Holy Ghost, that way discernment is clear and directive instead of confusing. I agree as well about recognizing truth, I am not saying that once you have read it you HAVE to accept it. Again, I am just around so many that know the truth, but want to have the truth and still indulge themselves. So your problem is not really with non-Mormons or ex-Mormons. It is with Mormons who have faith, but consciously choose to disobey God because it feels good. True apostates.I guess that is fair enough.Just remember that many LDS are raised to have faith...they believe what they are told until they reach a certain age to be able to really make an honest decision for themselves...and I don't agree with the Church that the age of accountability is 8 years old...it should be 18 at least...maybe 25. I think the majority of ex-Mormons are those who decide that they don't have faith anymore after they spend time thinking about it...they are not true apostates. A true apostate must have faith and consciously disobey God. Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 06:33 PM "While I'm not gonna tell you what to do, I am gonna tell you what the consequences are of doing those things, so that you can discern for yourself."Â Pretty powerful teacher if you ask me! Sounds like a great teacher. Quote
sgallan Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Leave's you out of what picture? **** Being a true denizen of "carnal lust". I am so disappointed. Something to shoot for I guess.... Quote
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted March 12, 2004 Report Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by sgallan@Mar 11 2004, 06:56 PM Leave's you out of what picture? ****Being a true denizen of "carnal lust". I am so disappointed.Something to shoot for I guess.... Ok, I understand now...Good luck with that Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.