How Do You Get Salvation Through Jesus Christ?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

It's obvious that you are blurring the meaning between both by interchanging them.

Okay, whatever bro. I don't know what you're reading but it's not my posts apparently. I never interchanged "justification" and "sanctification."

Earlier you did not assert your views on justification/sanctification when I clearly indicated that you may be confusing between those two, which tells the reader that you were unable (at that time) to correlate with your gospel and the two, let alone differienate between the two.

Give me the post number stealth. I don't know what you're reading. I never gave definitions of justification and sanctification. I described the interaction of faith, grace and works as relates to receiving personal salvation (which LDS do not define as just resurrection). There is salvation from death and hell...they're not one and the same.

BIBLE - The Bible is correct only as far as it is correctly translated. It is basically trustworthy. It is the only one of the four standard works (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) that is not considered infallible.

Close enough.

SALVATION - Simple bodily resurrection. It does not simply mean forgiveness of sins. Jesus died for universal resurrection.

False. Salvation and exaltation are often used interchangeably to refer to returning to God's presence. This whole time, when I said we had to have faith and works to receive salvation, you thought I was referring to mere resurrection? No wonder you're confused!

HEAVEN - Divided into three Kingdoms: Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. The Celestial is for perfect Mormons, the Terrestrial is for moral people and lukewarm LDS, and the Telestial Kingdom is for everyone else.

If you want to learn about the degrees of glory (which you essentially understand) try D&C Section 76.

KINGDOM OF GOD - Celestial Heaven

Sometimes, sometimes not. It can mean God's church or people on earth, depending on the context of the scripture passage it appears in.

HOLY GHOST - "A spirit man. He can only be at one place at one time... " (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 359.) The Holy Ghost is contrasted with the Spirit of God which is the influence of the Godhead that fills the immensity of space which enables God to know what is going on. It is likened to electricity."

The first part, yes, The second part, false. The Holy Ghost and the Spirit of God are one and the same. There is something called the Light of Christ (sometimes called the Spirit of Christ) which is equivalent to our concept of a conscience.

ETERNAL LIFE - Exaltation (exaltation to a Mormon means obtaining Godhood) in the Celestial Kingdom.

Yep, exactly what is described in Rev. 3:21.

GODHEAD - An office held by three separate Gods: the Father who is a god; Jesus who is a god; and the Holy Ghost who is a god.

Yes.

JESUS - Spirit brother of Satan. A god in the Godhead. He is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim being the Father. He was the first spirit child to be born to the Father and Mother gods.

Spirit brother of Satan...haven't seen that one in awhile. Yes, LDS believe we are all spirit children of God the Father...so we're all brothers and sisters of Jesus and Satan. Why is that so sensational? Anyway, everything is correct.

ATONEMENT - The sacrifice of Christ that made resurrection possible along with the possibility of our earning forgiveness of sins.

Yes, and not just being forgiven, but being sanctified/perfected as well.

PRE-EXISTENCE - We existed in heaven with God our (literal) Father before we became human.

Yes.

[Stealth3si]

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Every now and then, Mormons or LDS, dont' know which one they are, but most likely LDS, come visit my house. I'll try to remind myself to get a copy from them next time. B)

Stealth3si what is the difference between Mormon and LDS?

Mormon is a colloquial term used to refer to adherents of the Latter Day Saint movement, and most commonly to the movement's original and largest group, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormons consider themselves devout Christians and believe The Book of Mormon to be "Another Testament of Jesus Christ". Many denominations within the Latter Day Saint movement have disavowed the term. Mormonism is a religion, movement, ideology, and subculture that originated in the early 1800s as a product of the Latter Day Saint movement led principally by Joseph Smith, Jr. It is self-described as a form of Christian Restorationism and it encompasses numerous religious denominations. Mormonism is distinct from the Latter Day Saint movement in that it applies to a subset of the branches of that movement. The term Mormonism is also often used to refer specifically to the theology and subculture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the largest of many church organizations that claim to be part of Mormonism.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, widely known as the LDS Church or the Mormon Church, is the largest and best-known denomination within the Latter Day Saint movement and is self-described as the restoration of the original Christian church.

That's from the Wikipedia.

But that's a good question deserved to be answered either by a real Mormon or LDS or you can take my word for it. Whether you prefer Mormom or LDS or Community of Christ, Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, New Order Mormon, or other denomination, you're all under the LDS movement, or much widely known as "Mormonism", whether you prefer to be called it or not, to the rest of the world.

The people who stopped at my house we're probably LDS because they seem like they emphasized Jesus and they wore the infamous white shirt ,black tie and black slacks, back pack and bicycle.

[Stealth3si]

False. Salvation and exaltation are often used interchangeably to refer to returning to God's presence. This whole time, when I said we had to have faith and works to receive salvation, you thought I was referring to mere resurrection? No wonder you're confused!

Sheesh. I had a hunch somewhere down the thread that we we running in circles because of terminology differences. Either way, whether its mere modily resurrection or exaltion to Godhood, my question was, is it like a job where you attain some sort of status (resurrection or Godhood), whether it is by God's help or not, or both God's and our works?

Okay, whatever bro. I don't know what you're reading but it's not my posts apparently. I never interchanged "justification" and "sanctification."...Give me the post number stealth. I don't know what you're reading. I never gave definitions of justification and sanctification. I described the interaction of faith, grace and works as relates to receiving personal salvation (which LDS do not define as just resurrection). There is salvation from death and hell...they're not one and the same.

That's my point --- you've never given me a clear distinction between them in any of the posts. You seem to be blurring the meanings of the two terms by using the Mormon gospel and misappling the truths taught in God's word. But that is besides the point. Is getting salvation (resurrection or Godhood or whatever other status there may be I'm missing) like a job?

You've never given me a clear answer on what the gospel is, but since we're not here to discuss the doctrine of gospels, unless you want to, we're here to discuess the topic of salvation and how one receives it. When I say salvation, I mean being being declared righteous, whether you have bodily ressurection or Godhood.

So do you receive salvation by obtaining/attaining it like a job? Simple yes or no. How are you declared righeteous in front of God? by faith and works? and then how do you receive bodily ressurection and Godhood? by works right?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Stealth, you've got me very confused. I'll be as basic as I can (and I don't mean that condescendingly).

Resurrection = free gift to all; everyone who has lived will be resurrected after they die; you don't even have to have faith in Christ to be resurrected, let alone do works. Nothing required on our part to receive this aspect of salvation.

Exaltation = we must have faith in Christ as our Savior; we must repent of actions contrary to his will and gospel; we must be baptized for the remission of sins; we must receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; we must endure to the end (this involves all the stuff like serving and loving others, overcoming personal trials, applying Christ's grace to become better than we were, etc...)

I don't get the salvation/exaltation = job analogy. It's not what I'd compare discipleship to. In a job, you put in x number of hours and get paid x dollars for those hours. You exchange things of equal value (time on your part, money on your employer's part). The gospel is not like that. Exaltation is not payment for labor given. We don't obey and serve God to "earn" x number of blessings and x degree of glory hereafter. We obey and serve God because we love Him, have submitted to Him, and have had a mighty change of heart wherein we crucify the natural man and experience a metaphorical rebirth...we're born again. We can never give to Christ anything equal to what he's given to us in his perfect and infinite atonement. That's not why we labor and serve. We obey and serve because Christ would, and because as his disciples we follow his example.

"Works" or obedience is required to qualify for salvation, in the same way that a clean credit history is required to qualify for a bank loan. You don't get the loan because you give the bank an amount of money equal to what they're giving you. You qualify because of your character and actions you've taken in your life. So too with Christ's grace and our celestial bank account that we use to pay the debts of sin we incur; we qualify to access those celestial funds, we don't earn the funds ourselves.

The LDS gospel is the good news that Christ lived, died and was resurrected that we might be saved from sin and death through obedience to the laws and ordinances of his gospel. Everything else in the scriptures and our theology is commentary. Christ is our Savior. That is the core.

[Stealth3si]

We obey and serve God because we love Him, have submitted to Him, and have had a mighty change of heart wherein we crucify the natural man and experience a metaphorical rebirth...we're born again. We can never give to Christ anything equal to what he's given to us in his perfect and infinite atonement. That's not why we labor and serve. We obey and serve because Christ would, and because as his disciples we follow his example.

"Works" or obedience is required to qualify for salvation, in the same way that a clean credit history is required to qualify for a bank loan.

So are you saying "works" or obedience is 1.) not a requirement of abiding in Christ but a natural process of having true faith in Christ but 2.) a requirement for exaltation (Godhood)? Now I'm using the term salvation to imply the term exaltation -- to become a God.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

So are you saying "works" or obedience is 1.) not a requirement of abiding in Christ but a natural process of having true faith in Christ but 2.) a requirement for exaltation (Godhood)?

That's alot of buts. If I understand your compound question, I'd say that those who abide in Christ are those who've experienced a change in their hearts, and that it is to these souls who are sanctified by Christ's blood that a fulness of eternal joy and glory will be given. I don't know if that's what you're asking.

[Stealth3si]

"Works" or obedience is required to qualify for salvation....

What do you mean by salvation? Salvation as bodily ressurection or salvation as exaltation to a god?

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So are you saying "works" or obedience is 1.) not a requirement of abiding in Christ but a natural process of having true faith in Christ but 2.) a requirement for exaltation (Godhood)?

That's alot of buts. If I understand your compound question, I'd say that those who abide in Christ are those who've experienced a change in their hearts, and that it is to these souls who are sanctified by Christ's blood that a fulness of eternal joy and glory will be given. I don't know if that's what you're asking.

Yes. That's what I'm asking. When you say, "that it is to these souls who are sanctified by Christ's blood that a fulness of eternal joy and glory will be given", are you saying that they will be given a fullness of eternal joy and glory because of the true faith they have demonstrated through "works" and obedience? OR do you mean that true faith is demonstrated by "works" and obedience because they are given a fullness of eternal joy and glory?

Also, what about exaltation or godhood? Do you practice "works" and obedience because you will become exalted or a god? OR do you practice "works" and obedience to become exalted or a god?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

What do you mean by salvation? Salvation as bodily ressurection or salvation as exaltation to a god?

I already said I mean exaltation when I say salvation. When I mean resurrection I say resurrection.

When you say, "that it is to these souls who are sanctified by Christ's blood that a fulness of eternal joy and glory will be given", are you saying that they will be given a fullness of eternal joy and glory because of the true faith they have demonstrated through "works" and obedience? OR do you mean that true faith is demonstrated by "works" and obedience because they are given a fullness of eternal joy and glory?

Also, what about exaltation or godhood? Do you practice "works" and obedience because you will become exalted or a god? OR do you practice "works" and obedience to become exalted or a god?

I don't understand what you're asking. I get the feeling that we're splitting hairs here. I think I've been clear enough about my beliefs. I don't know what else you expect me or any other LDS member to say. Read our scriptures, draw your own conclusions.

[Guest MrsS]

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Every now and then, Mormons or LDS, dont' know which one they are, but most likely LDS, come visit my house. I'll try to remind myself to get a copy from them next time. B)

Stealth3si what is the difference between Mormon and LDS?

Mormon is a colloquial term used to refer to adherents of the Latter Day Saint <strike>movement </strike>religion (had to correct that) , and most commonly to the <strike>movement's</strike>religion's original and <strike>largest</strike>(only) group, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormons consider themselves devout Christians and believe The Book of Mormon to be "Another Testament of Jesus Christ". <strike>Many denominations within the Latter Day Saint movement have disavowed the term.</strike> There are no other denominations within our Church. Mormonism is a religion, movement, ideology, and subculture that originated in the early 1800s as a product of the Latter Day Saint movement led principally by Joseph Smith, Jr. It is self-described as a form of Christian Restorationism and it encompasses numerous religious denominations. Mormonism is distinct from the Latter Day Saint movement in that it applies to a subset of the branches of that movement. HUH? Talk about double talk that describes nothing. The term Mormonism is also often used to refer specifically to the theology and subculture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, <strike>which is the largest of many church organizations that claim to be part of Mormonism.</strike>We are the one and only!

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, <strike>widely</strike>is known as the LDS Church or the Mormon Church<strike>, is the largest and best-known denomination within the Latter Day Saint movement and is self-described as the restoration of the original Christian church</strike>.

That's from the Wikipedia.

But that's a good question deserved to be answered either by a real Mormon or LDS or you can take my word for it. Whether you prefer Mormon or LDS<strike> or Community of Christ, Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, New Order Mormon, or other denomination, you're all under the LDS movement, or much widely known as "Mormonism", whether you prefer to be called it or not, to the rest of the world. </strike> I am a real Mormon/LDS. I opt to NOT take your word for it. We are not a movement, we do not include the above sects that I have crossed out. They are not now, nor ever have been a part of our church. Oops, Community of Christ (RLDS) is the only one that broke off from THE Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and they did this after the death of Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr.

The people who stopped at my house we're probably LDS because they seem like they emphasized Jesus and they wore the infamous white shirt ,black tie and black slacks, back pack and bicycle. If they were wearinga prominate badge that said: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with their name on the top line http://lds.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.ht...templates%243.0, then they were indeed LDS/Mormon Missionaries.

Stealth3si - Wikipedia has errors in it. Mormon is a nickname given to the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by those who were persecuting us 176 years ago. We prefer to be refered to as LDS, yet we are not offended when we are called Mormons.

[Stealth3si]

Stealth3si - Wikipedia has errors in it. Mormon is a nickname given to the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by those who were persecuting us 176 years ago. We prefer to be refered to as LDS, yet we are not offended when we are called Mormons.

OK your definitino is much more easier to understand. The wikipedia's definition was a little tedious to understand. So let me get this straight. The LDS started out as a movement but eventually became a religion in its own right, as LDS and the LDS church, while still holding the informal nickname, "Mormons". FYI, every religion in this world started out as movement and became a religion.

Commonly, I've seen the LDS and Community of Christ buildings before but I've never expected there to be so many different denominatinos. Why did Wikipedia include all those denomonations? Could it be that those denominations once existed but no longer exist?

Whatever maybe, so basically Mormons, LDS and Community of Christ are all theologically under the same religion in its own right today, yet all three are on different belts, for lack of a better term, because of minor issues? The exception is that Mormons now is informally what LDS and Community of Christ are called or labeled by, as you put it, "misinformed", people.

Please remember that people do NOT use Mormon in a derogorative manner to insult you or degrade. It is simply a term used to identify you, despite its negative connotation in past history. So why do some LDS prefer not to be called Mormons while others are laid back about it? I mean it's not like "Mormon" refers to a particular race of people in a negative manner.

[Princess3dward]

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Stealth3si - Wikipedia has errors in it. Mormon is a nickname given to the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by those who were persecuting us 176 years ago. We prefer to be refered to as LDS, yet we are not offended when we are called Mormons.

OK your definitino is much more easier to understand. The wikipedia's definition was a little tedious to understand. So let me get this straight. The LDS started out as a movement but eventually became a religion in its own right, as LDS and the LDS church, while still holding the informal nickname, "Mormons". FYI, every religion in this world started out as movement and became a religion.

Commonly, I've seen the LDS and Community of Christ buildings before but I've never expected there to be so many different denominatinos. Why did Wikipedia include all those denomonations? Could it be that those denominations once existed but no longer exist?

Whatever maybe, so basically Mormons, LDS and Community of Christ are all theologically under the same religion in its own right today, yet all three are on different belts, for lack of a better term, because of minor issues? The exception is that Mormons now is informally what LDS and Community of Christ are called or labeled by, as you put it, "misinformed", people.

Please remember that people do NOT use Mormon in a derogorative manner to insult you or degrade. It is simply a term used to identify you, despite its negative connotation in past history. So why do some LDS prefer not to be called Mormons while others are laid back about it? I mean it's not like "Mormon" refers to a particular race of people in a negative manner.

What I was taught, and read on LDS.org somewhere, is that LDS are mormons, and the FLDS are not. I read that there are no fundimentilest(sp?) mormons, and should not be given the same name as us...

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The exception is that Mormons now is informally what LDS and Community of Christ are called or labeled by, as you put it, "misinformed", people.

Community of Christ aren't Mormons in that they no longer claim the Book of Mormon is God's word and inspired scripture. They just consider it a book with some interesting principles in it. Apparently they denounced the Book of Mormon to be let into the Christian Coalition. Regardless, I don't see how they can be called Mormons if they don't teach and believe in the Book of Mormon.

I dislike being called a Mormon because it makes my religion and faith seem focused on a disciple, not the Savior. Mormon was a prophet, and a mighty man, but a man nonetheless. Consider how a Christian would feel if they were called "Pauls" or "Peters" because of their belief in the New Testament. Sure those men were great disciples, but they aren't the Savior and it'd be irresponsible to reduce their faith to the name of one disciple.

[Princess3dward]

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The exception is that Mormons now is informally what LDS and Community of Christ are called or labeled by, as you put it, "misinformed", people.

I dislike being called a Mormon because it makes my religion and faith seem focused on a disciple, not the Savior. Mormon was a prophet, and a mighty man, but a man nonetheless. Consider how a Christian would feel if they were called "Pauls" or "Peters" because of their belief in the New Testament. Sure those men were great disciples, but they aren't the Savior and it'd be irresponsible to reduce their faith to the name of one disciple.

I don't like it because of that, and it leaves out the part that we are all saints doing out best to live the commandments...

[Stealth3si]

I already said I mean exaltation when I say salvation. When I mean resurrection I say resurrection...I don't understand what you're asking. I get the feeling that we're splitting hairs here. I think I've been clear enough about my beliefs. I don't know what else you expect me or any other LDS member to say. Read our scriptures, draw your own conclusions.

I don't see why you're avoiding my questions because they're real simple. There's no need to analyze them. The reason why I ask again is to make sure we are on the same page. Haven't you noticed by now that our understanding of terminology is important to our communication? Forgive me if I sound a little pretentious just for the sake of eye-to-eye communication. Just answer them please, otherwise, you're allowing me to draw conclusions based on what you say. And I hope they're right.

So let me get this straight: You don't earn exaltation (godhood) but you do "works" and obedience because you love Him, etc. Yet you said "works" and obedience is required to qualify for salvation (or exaltation)? Please clarify that one for me. :)

[Princess3dward]

So let me get this straight: You don't earn exaltation (godhood) but you do "works" and obedience because you love Him, etc. Yet you said "works" and obedience is required to qualify for salvation (or exaltation)? Please clarify that one for me. :)

This is as clear is you will ever get...

You EARN celestial glory by your works AND your faith.

[Stealth3si]

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The exception is that Mormons now is informally what LDS and Community of Christ are called or labeled by, as you put it, "misinformed", people.

I dislike being called a Mormon because it makes my religion and faith seem focused on a disciple, not the Savior. Mormon was a prophet, and a mighty man, but a man nonetheless. Consider how a Christian would feel if they were called "Pauls" or "Peters" because of their belief in the New Testament. Sure those men were great disciples, but they aren't the Savior and it'd be irresponsible to reduce their faith to the name of one disciple.

I don't like it because of that, and it leaves out the part that we are all saints doing out best to live the commandments...

Glad to see you're on a band-wagon again.

I'm just speculating here, but what was so special about Mormon the prophet that gave all of you guys the nickname "Mormons"? What was his role in the presentation of your new gospel? Was he the one who brought you the news? I thought Joseph Smith was the founder of Mormonism.

[Princess3dward]

Glad to see you're on a band-wagon again.

I'm just speculating here, but what was so special about Mormon the prophet that gave all of you guys the nickname "Mormons"? What was his role in the presentation of your new gospel? Was he the one who brought you the news? I thought Joseph Smith was the founder of Mormonism.

He compiled most of the book of mormon onto the gold plates

[Dr T]

Most? I didn't know that. What do you mean?

Thank you

[Princess3dward]

Most? I didn't know that. What do you mean?

Thank you

His son Moroni had to take over after Mormon died.

[Dr T]

I don't remember reading that Des. What is the ref. for that idea?

Thanks

[Princess3dward]

I don't remember reading that Des. What is the ref. for that idea?

Thanks

Moroni says he is the last one alive of his people, and that he is finishing it for his father... and the last book of the book of mormon is Moroni..... Have you ever read one before Dr. T?

[Dr T]

I did while in SLC Des. Have you?

[Princess3dward]

I did while in SLC Des. Have you?

Yupp. Both while in seminary, and our ward worked together (mostly the youth) to read it before the end of the year. If it wasn't for that, I would have never found my favourite scripture... (in my sig)...

YOU MADE IT TO SALT LAKE CITY BEFORE ME? I WANT TO GO SO BAD!

[Stealth3si]

This is as clear is you will ever get...

You EARN celestial glory by your works AND your faith.

But ApostleKnight just said you don't earn exaltation (or in your case, celestial glory). But then again he said "works" and obedience is requried for salvation. And I don't know if he used the world 'salvation' to mean exaltation/celestial glory.

So I'll wait for what he has to say about what you just said.

Besides, why are you answering for him anyway? I thought you stopped posting in here.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

So let me get this straight: You don't earn exaltation (godhood) but you do "works" and obedience because you love Him, etc. Yet you said "works" and obedience is required to qualify for salvation (or exaltation)? Please clarify that one for me. :)

"Earn" is not the same thing as "qualify for." I don't believe we "earn" exaltation. Before I go further, confirm that you understand what I'm saying there.