Well Since Everybody Else Is Coming Out

[Snow]

I can tell you don't live in California Peace.

Here, carnitas are just small pieces of pork that you get in tacos or burritos. In South America where I was, they are bigger, like 1" in diameter, cooked in oil in giant copper kettles out on the street. They would be crispy and salty on the outside and tender and juicy and flavorful on the inside. We could get a serving on a banana leaf along with choclo con queso... big fat corn on the cob and cheese. Officially we were forbidden by mission rules to eat on the street like that because the resulting illness sent many a young man home early but I, Mr Lamaba, enjoyed the forbidden dance of native food...

Bien ricos mean very rich or very good.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 10 2004, 10:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 10 2004, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by -curvette@Mar 10 2004, 08:07 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 05:52 PM

you don't make it through the MTC or all the way through a mission for that matter without conviction and belief.

Is that a fact? Are you speaking from experience?

I have been in the MTC, and have been on many missionary outings. So yes, from experience. Unless you believe otherwise?

Nonsense! People go on missions for many reasons OTHER THAN true conviction.

Well Cal, they have raised the bar. It is boot camp in there. And I studied 4 hours a day, hard, before coming to the MTC. I read the BOM, D&C, PoGP, Miracle of Forgiveness, Tools for a Missionary, and a few other Church books all in about a month before going into the MTC, and it was still on a whole other. Not only that, but it is not memorizing anymore, it's all about YOU constructing outlines based on your ability to study and use the spirit. I'm sure there are those who still do go for the reasons you stated. But my point is, 2 years is a long, hard process if you are not wrapped up in the work. So at least from what I found, at least for the standards they have now, very few that are actual unworthy and/or don't want to be there end up making it through the MTC, and 2 years. I personally have experienced a great deal of Godly sorrow, and it is the worst feeling in the world. It's like someone dumped gasoline on your soul and lit a match. Unquenchable fire is an understatement.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 06:04 PM

Well Cal, they have raised the bar. It is boot camp in there.

The MTC has always been boot camp. It isn't any harder now than it was when we were there.

[Snow]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 06:04 PM

Not only that, but it is not memorizing anymore, it's all about YOU constructing outlines based on your ability to study and use the spirit.

Holy Canolli,

You mean when I was there we didn't "use the spirit" like you new-fangled, young whipper-snappers?

Gadzooks! Imagine my shame.

[Cal]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 06:04 PM

you don't make it through the MTC or all the way through a mission for that matter without conviction and belief.

Is that a fact? Are you speaking from experience?

I have been in the MTC, and have been on many missionary outings. So yes, from experience. Unless you believe otherwise?

Nonsense! People go on missions for many reasons OTHER THAN true conviction.

Well Cal, they have raised the bar. It is boot camp in there. And I studied 4 hours a day, hard, before coming to the MTC. I read the BOM, D&C, PoGP, Miracle of Forgiveness, Tools for a Missionary, and a few other Church books all in about a month before going into the MTC, and it was still on a whole other. Not only that, but it is not memorizing anymore, it's all about YOU constructing outlines based on your ability to study and use the spirit. I'm sure there are those who still do go for the reasons you stated. But my point is, 2 years is a long, hard process if you are not wrapped up in the work. So at least from what I found, at least for the standards they have now, very few that are actual unworthy and/or don't want to be there end up making it through the MTC, and 2 years. I personally have experienced a great deal of Godly sorrow, and it is the worst feeling in the world. It's like someone dumped gasoline on your soul and lit a match. Unquenchable fire is an understatement.

Quite a nice religion you have there--I prefer a "kinder-gentler" one---one that doesn't give you ulcers.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 11 2004, 08:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 11 2004, 08:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 06:04 PM

Not only that, but it is not memorizing anymore, it's all about YOU constructing outlines based on your ability to study and use the spirit.

Holy Canolli,

You mean when I was there we didn't "use the spirit" like you new-fangled, young whipper-snappers?

Gadzooks! Imagine my shame.

Snow, I wasn't saying that at all. I am not questioning anyones ability. I know it has ALWAYS been a bootcamp. But it is different. Every missionary I have talked to since being home has said that the transition into the new system was definately difficult to adjust to. And every teacher that taught us in the MTC stated very clearly that the new standards and expectations are much higher and much more difficult than that of the previous. That being said, I am not saying that a great deal of missionaries pre-outline days wouldn't have the same success. I am merely showing that it is a raised bar. It will most likely go up again(as it has done a few times), and in that time young LDS will be expected to be even more virtuous than this generation. I would never suggest that one didn't need the spirit previous to the transition. As far as Cal goes, is an ulcer, or a calas(???), or even cancer that horrible when considering what we have the opportunity to attain in Celestial Glory. By your theory if God exists, why let bad things happen. Opposition BRO! Without opposition the the Plan of Salvation would be frustrated.

[Snow]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 09:04 PM

And every teacher that taught us in the MTC stated very clearly that the new standards and expectations are much higher and much more difficult than that of the previous.... I am merely showing that it is a raised bar.

Porter,

I have to say BULL.

When I went through the MTC we got up at, oh say, before the crack of dawn, and worked our tails off until, oh say, the minute we went to sleep. What part of the bar do you think is higher? Do the missionaries of today know the scriptures better, understand the gospel more, enjoy a closer relationship to the spirit? Do they expend more intellectual and spiritual energy? How much more? Seven?

I got news for you. I never gave a memorized discussion in my life and I have given thousands. There are people on this board that can put your average missionary to shame in scripture knowledge and they got their base of knowledge on their mission. Don't forget, I know missionaries, I talk to them every week. They come to my house. I see first hand how prepared they are. Generally speaking, there is a dumbing down in the Church today. I assume that carries over to the mission field. It is, perhaps, a natural result of the Church operating on a global front and a need to communicate to the common denominator level of the members. The Brethern of years gone by were intellectual giants. Compare Widstoe or Talmage or Orson Whitney to whoever sets the tone for theological insight today and tell me about the bar being raised. Neil Maxwell is not B.H. Roberts. Know who wrote the Priesthood manual when I was a kid? Nibley. It will be a chilly afternoon in gehenna before that day comes again.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 11 2004, 05:41 PM

I can tell you don't live in California Peace.

Here, carnitas are just small pieces of pork that you get in tacos or burritos. In South America where I was, they are bigger, like 1" in diameter, cooked in oil in giant copper kettles out on the street. They would be crispy and salty on the outside and tender and juicy and flavorful on the inside. We could get a serving on a banana leaf along with choclo con queso... big fat corn on the cob and cheese. Officially we were forbidden by mission rules to eat on the street like that because the resulting illness sent many a young man home early but I, Mr Lamaba, enjoyed the forbidden dance of native food...

Bien ricos mean very rich or very good.

You are right...I don't live in California.

just for future reference....beware of the forbidden dance of native foods...Mr. Lamaba! LOL

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 11 2004, 10:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 11 2004, 10:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 09:04 PM

And every teacher that taught us in the MTC stated very clearly that the new standards and expectations are much higher and much more difficult than that of the previous....  I am merely showing that it is a raised bar.

Porter,

I have to say BULL.

When I went through the MTC we got up at, oh say, before the crack of dawn, and worked our tails off until, oh say, the minute we went to sleep. What part of the bar do you think is higher? Do the missionaries of today know the scriptures better, understand the gospel more, enjoy a closer relationship to the spirit? Do they expend more intellectual and spiritual energy? How much more? Seven?

I got news for you. I never gave a memorized discussion in my life and I have given thousands. There are people on this board that can put your average missionary to shame in scripture knowledge and they got their base of knowledge on their mission. Don't forget, I know missionaries, I talk to them every week. They come to my house. I see first hand how prepared they are. Generally speaking, there is a dumbing down in the Church today. I assume that carries over to the mission field. It is, perhaps, a natural result of the Church operating on a global front and a need to communicate to the common denominator level of the members. The Brethern of years gone by were intellectual giants. Compare Widstoe or Talmage or Orson Whitney to whoever sets the tone for theological insight today and tell me about the bar being raised. Neil Maxwell is not B.H. Roberts. Know who wrote the Priesthood manual when I was a kid? Nibley. It will be a chilly afternoon in gehenna before that day comes again.

When I say raised the bar, I am also talking about standards that were lived by the missionary previous to the mission field. Also, I don't know anywhere near the scriptural support that you or anyone on this board most likely so I am not going to argue that one. But I was in an AP meeting with kids who were rattling off scriptural references left and right. And I must say, it was quite impressive. In fact I truly wish I had that ability to the extent they do. But I also learned a long time ago how to teach with the spirit. If someone can't feel the spirit or accept that spirit, as even on here, scriptural support is mute. I am also not saying "raising the bar" means that we are better missionaries or that those before couldn't stack up. But they have raised standards on those who want to go. I know a great deal of people, even in my own stake, that would not be going had they waited 4-6 more months. I am also not ACCUSING you or trying to MAKE YOU sound inferior. Take this for instance, when my dad went on his mission, he was only in a mission home for 5 days before being shipped out, obviously he would be able to fullfill the expectations of missionaries of this new generation. But the standards and expectations were infact raised. And for kids who are just entering, they don't know the contrast between past and present. So their exposure to such a strong spirit weeds out those who just don't have the desire to be there. And I don't know how one could fight the feeling of guilt that comes from unworthiness, I personally wouldn't even be concerned with who I let down. That feeling makes me squirm, and it is the most condemning, horrific feeling in the world. So again, that is another thing I can't understand that maybe I would like to. I guess it is my perspective, I have one person that I don't want to dissappoint, and that's the Lord. If I take the neccessary steps to repentance and turn things around(provided I have done something wrong), and my family is dissapointed in me and holds it against me. That is there problem, because once you repent, the Lord forgets about it and you move on. So again, my perspective is just a little more Eternal.

[Cal]

Originally posted by porterrockwell+Mar 12 2004, 01:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (porterrockwell @ Mar 12 2004, 01:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Mar 11 2004, 10:55 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 09:04 PM

And every teacher that taught us in the MTC stated very clearly that the new standards and expectations are much higher and much more difficult than that of the previous....  I am merely showing that it is a raised bar.

Porter,

I have to say BULL.

When I went through the MTC we got up at, oh say, before the crack of dawn, and worked our tails off until, oh say, the minute we went to sleep. What part of the bar do you think is higher? Do the missionaries of today know the scriptures better, understand the gospel more, enjoy a closer relationship to the spirit? Do they expend more intellectual and spiritual energy? How much more? Seven?

I got news for you. I never gave a memorized discussion in my life and I have given thousands. There are people on this board that can put your average missionary to shame in scripture knowledge and they got their base of knowledge on their mission. Don't forget, I know missionaries, I talk to them every week. They come to my house. I see first hand how prepared they are. Generally speaking, there is a dumbing down in the Church today. I assume that carries over to the mission field. It is, perhaps, a natural result of the Church operating on a global front and a need to communicate to the common denominator level of the members. The Brethern of years gone by were intellectual giants. Compare Widstoe or Talmage or Orson Whitney to whoever sets the tone for theological insight today and tell me about the bar being raised. Neil Maxwell is not B.H. Roberts. Know who wrote the Priesthood manual when I was a kid? Nibley. It will be a chilly afternoon in gehenna before that day comes again.

When I say raised the bar, I am also talking about standards that were lived by the missionary previous to the mission field. Also, I don't know anywhere near the scriptural support that you or anyone on this board most likely so I am not going to argue that one. But I was in an AP meeting with kids who were rattling off scriptural references left and right. And I must say, it was quite impressive. In fact I truly wish I had that ability to the extent they do. But I also learned a long time ago how to teach with the spirit. If someone can't feel the spirit or accept that spirit, as even on here, scriptural support is mute. I am also not saying "raising the bar" means that we are better missionaries or that those before couldn't stack up. But they have raised standards on those who want to go. I know a great deal of people, even in my own stake, that would not be going had they waited 4-6 more months. I am also not ACCUSING you or trying to MAKE YOU sound inferior. Take this for instance, when my dad went on his mission, he was only in a mission home for 5 days before being shipped out, obviously he would be able to fullfill the expectations of missionaries of this new generation. But the standards and expectations were infact raised. And for kids who are just entering, they don't know the contrast between past and present. So their exposure to such a strong spirit weeds out those who just don't have the desire to be there. And I don't know how one could fight the feeling of guilt that comes from unworthiness, I personally wouldn't even be concerned with who I let down. That feeling makes me squirm, and it is the most condemning, horrific feeling in the world. So again, that is another thing I can't understand that maybe I would like to. I guess it is my perspective, I have one person that I don't want to dissappoint, and that's the Lord. If I take the neccessary steps to repentance and turn things around(provided I have done something wrong), and my family is dissapointed in me and holds it against me. That is there problem, because once you repent, the Lord forgets about it and you move on. So again, my perspective is just a little more Eternal.

Porter, may I ask WHY do you want to go on a mission if the whole process is making you SO MISERABLE! Not everyone has to go on a mission. There are even a couple of Apostles who never went on missions. My father-in-law bishop never went on a mission. Why don't you concentrate on getting an education and good career--keep youself focused on something worthy like that, and maybe you will find that your other "worthiness" problem will go away.

IMHO you are wasting your present life worrying about some future life that may or may not exist. Get some goals that are going to give you a sense of acheivement, and you may be a lot happier. I doesn't sound to me like the Church thing is making you happy--quit taking it so freeking seriously. Relax man! Everything in moderation--including religion. :)

[Guest curvette]

This discussion is veering off here (my fault, in part.) I think the reason missions were even brought up in this thread was when Porter was blasting the director of the independent film "Latter Days" by concluding that he must have had a testimony at one time by virtue of having served a mission. The "bar" has been raised since then. Mainly what that has meant though, is that the requirements (mainly sexual abstinence) for the prospective missionary are higher. The MTC has always introduced new teaching methods every few years. This isn't a new thing and it will always periodically change because that's the way we mortals work. It used to be that the missionary gained the Lion's share of experience in the mission field, but apparantly this didn't benefit the investigator. The MTC isn't any harder or easier, they are attempting to see that the missionaries are as well prepared as possible before they actually begin teaching investigators. A "mission" is no longer for the benefit of the missionary, but for the benefit of the prospective member, as it should be. And I agree with Cal, a mission is not supposed to cause the missionary ulcers. The MTC is hard, but so is military training. It has to be hard, but it's not supposed to kill you.

[Guest Starsky]

The MTC is hard, but so is military training. It has to be hard, but it's not supposed to kill you.

LOL...so we won't bring up the food at the MTC.... but most of the elders will.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 12 2004, 11:48 AM

The MTC is hard, but so is military training. It has to be hard, but it's not supposed to kill you.

LOL...so we won't bring up the food at the MTC.... but most of the elders will.

Ok, let's just drop the MTC thing, my bad. But yes the food is HORRIBLE. EHhhhh..too many starches. I lost like 14 pounds my 2nd week in the MTC just from not eating the bad foods. Anyway, Cal, while educations and careers are important they are not my #1 goal. I want to serve the Lord, I have recieved confirmation that it is what I am supposed to return. It's funny, my patriarchal blessing speaks in very great detail about this specific situation, and I didn't notice it until I was in the situation, and the revelation was needed. That's a testimony right there.

Also, you need to understand that, one, the Lord must try us. Plus, it isn't making me miserable. I love opposition now, it makes me stronger(provided I am righteously fighting through it), it gives me new perspective. I would not want step off the chosen path to Eternal LIfe just because it got a little uphill every now and then.

And as far as the rest of my life goes, I have been very tempted to get a business loan and open up shop here in Lacey instead of returning. And even though I would have success and be able to go to night school at the same time and setup a foundation for a family(which I also am dying to have), I want to share the Gospel and serve the Lord.

If you know your calling and you step away from it for some reason YOU have control over then that is definately something that is disobedient and regretable. Sorry, I don't want to miss out on the experience and those things which I have yet to learn from them. Plus, it will make me a better Father, brother, and son.

Here is a scripture that I learned in like under 10 minutes my first day at the MTC...Mosiah 3:19

For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been since the fall of Adam, and will be forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the antonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his Father.

That is life in a nutshell. Without pressure and opposition he would not be able to mold us in his image.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by curvette@Mar 12 2004, 10:30 AM

This discussion is veering off here (my fault, in part.) I think the reason missions were even brought up in this thread was when Porter was blasting the director of the independent film "Latter Days" by concluding that he must have had a testimony at one time by virtue of having served a mission. The "bar" has been raised since then. Mainly what that has meant though, is that the requirements (mainly sexual abstinence) for the prospective missionary are higher. The MTC has always introduced new teaching methods every few years. This isn't a new thing and it will always periodically change because that's the way we mortals work. It used to be that the missionary gained the Lion's share of experience in the mission field, but apparantly this didn't benefit the investigator. The MTC isn't any harder or easier, they are attempting to see that the missionaries are as well prepared as possible before they actually begin teaching investigators. A "mission" is no longer for the benefit of the missionary, but for the benefit of the prospective member, as it should be. And I agree with Cal, a mission is not supposed to cause the missionary ulcers. The MTC is hard, but so is military training. It has to be hard, but it's not supposed to kill you.

Ahhh, you have to ask why is it hard? It was hard for me because I was a stupid teenage who didn't care enough about the Gospel or going on a mission. Bro. T's style of teaching spoke right to my core, woke me up, and now all I can think about is being in the spiritual atmosphere that is part of the mission. Everything is quickened there, inspiration...it is beyond words. I personally love it. It wasn't killing me either, I actually had 2 ear infections, 1 sinus infection, an anxiety attack, sleeping 3 hours a night, and a few other things. So once those are fixed and set straight, I don't think it will the SAME uphill battle.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 12 2004, 08:51 AM

Get some goals that are going to give you a sense of acheivement, and you may be a lot happier. I doesn't sound to me like the Church thing is making you happy--quit taking it so freeking seriously. Relax man!  Everything in moderation--including religion. :)

I'm glad you know me so well. Actually I do have goals, and first and foremost is return to my Heavenly Father. Celestial Glory, Eternal Life, Exaltation....any of those ring a bell. I think the real question is am I hitting this too hard, or are you slackin at the wheel on your end? The Church does make me happy, it is the only time when I do feel happy. Anytime I disobediently step outside of my conviction, I feel dark and horrible. Peter said something of the same respect to Jesus as he was headed for what would be his crucifixion. You know what Jesus he said to him...."Get behind me Satan".

Anyway, as I have stated a million times, this forum does not portray anything but my spiritual conviction. Nothing more, nothing less. Too hasty to judge my friend. I didn't come on here to display my whole life, but to discuss doctrine and principle.

But since you feel that the church doesn't make me happy, I'll give you a taste of what MY WHOLE LIFE, is like.

I play paintball, for a team that is working out sponsorship so that we can begin tourny play. Last year I kept the local paintball store from going under. It had been robbed of about 6,000 dollars in product and noone new the place had reopened. I re-established clientel, and within a month, I was making 600 dollars in 2 hours on Saturdays(as opposed to Zero). Unfortunately the owner didn't pay the bills, and lied to everyone instead of trying to liquidate, so it closed down and I had no chance to turn that thing into gold mine.

I love sports been watching them since I was able to open my eyes. I have been know to have one earphone with sports radio going, while watching ESPN, reading SI, and playing XBOX sports games(Don't think it can be done, come watch me some time and you will be amazed). Been a fan of Gonzaga since 1995. Huge Sonic/Hawk/M's fan.

Love Seattle, my favorite evening is just walking through downtown Seattle and hanging out with friends.

Recently helped the newest of Paintball stores get on it's feet in place of the old one. Also did all this, plus the other "resurgance" for FREE! Really into business, read every major financial rag including the WSJ. Love kids, half of my jobs in my life have been with toddlers and youth and teen.

Love the scriptures try to read at least 20 pages of both the BOM and the BIBLE a day. Celestial Room of the Temple is the most amazing place I have ever been, would never concern myself with things that would keep me from having that opportunity. If I was closer I would go to the Temple every morning.

That is just a little piece of my life. I would write more, but I am sure there is a character limit. But as I have reiterated. I don't come on here save it be to discuss prinicple and doctrine.

[Guest Starsky]

I'm all messed up. I guess it is because i am trying to speed read and catching only half the stuff today...but am I getting that you are right now on a mission and considering coming home....?? Or are you home early from your mission...Or are you just now planning to go on a mission...or are you in the MTC?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 12 2004, 02:09 PM

I didn't come on here to display my whole life, but to discuss doctrine and principle.

Then why do you keep droning on about your personal life?

[Snow]

Originally posted by curvette@Mar 12 2004, 09:30 AM

Mainly what that has meant though, is that the requirements (mainly sexual abstinence) for the prospective missionary are higher.

I don't know about that. All I can say is that while I was on my mission, for the most part, I was sexually abstinent.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 12 2004, 03:21 PM

I don't know about that. All I can say is that while I was on my mission, for the most part, I was sexually abstinent.

Well, I'm glad to know that the maggots did well for you!

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 12 2004, 04:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 12 2004, 04:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 12 2004, 03:21 PM

I don't know about that. All I can say is that while I was on my mission, for the most part, I was sexually abstinent.

Well, I'm glad to know that the maggots did well for you!

I'm confused...are you on the right topic?

[Guest Starsky]

LOL

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 06:04 PM

you don't make it through the MTC or all the way through a mission for that matter without conviction and belief.

Is that a fact? Are you speaking from experience?

I have been in the MTC, and have been on many missionary outings. So yes, from experience. Unless you believe otherwise?

Nonsense! People go on missions for many reasons OTHER THAN true conviction.

Well Cal, they have raised the bar. It is boot camp in there. And I studied 4 hours a day, hard, before coming to the MTC. I read the BOM, D&C, PoGP, Miracle of Forgiveness, Tools for a Missionary, and a few other Church books all in about a month before going into the MTC, and it was still on a whole other. Not only that, but it is not memorizing anymore, it's all about YOU constructing outlines based on your ability to study and use the spirit. I'm sure there are those who still do go for the reasons you stated. But my point is, 2 years is a long, hard process if you are not wrapped up in the work. So at least from what I found, at least for the standards they have now, very few that are actual unworthy and/or don't want to be there end up making it through the MTC, and 2 years. I personally have experienced a great deal of Godly sorrow, and it is the worst feeling in the world. It's like someone dumped gasoline on your soul and lit a match. Unquenchable fire is an understatement.

Gadzooks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Miracle of Forgiveness is mind-warping! Explains a lot about you Port. . . Sorry, man. Wish you'd just said NO to that book.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by porterrockwell+Mar 12 2004, 01:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (porterrockwell @ Mar 12 2004, 01:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Mar 11 2004, 10:55 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 09:04 PM

And every teacher that taught us in the MTC stated very clearly that the new standards and expectations are much higher and much more difficult than that of the previous....  I am merely showing that it is a raised bar.

Porter,

I have to say BULL.

When I went through the MTC we got up at, oh say, before the crack of dawn, and worked our tails off until, oh say, the minute we went to sleep. What part of the bar do you think is higher? Do the missionaries of today know the scriptures better, understand the gospel more, enjoy a closer relationship to the spirit? Do they expend more intellectual and spiritual energy? How much more? Seven?

I got news for you. I never gave a memorized discussion in my life and I have given thousands. There are people on this board that can put your average missionary to shame in scripture knowledge and they got their base of knowledge on their mission. Don't forget, I know missionaries, I talk to them every week. They come to my house. I see first hand how prepared they are. Generally speaking, there is a dumbing down in the Church today. I assume that carries over to the mission field. It is, perhaps, a natural result of the Church operating on a global front and a need to communicate to the common denominator level of the members. The Brethern of years gone by were intellectual giants. Compare Widstoe or Talmage or Orson Whitney to whoever sets the tone for theological insight today and tell me about the bar being raised. Neil Maxwell is not B.H. Roberts. Know who wrote the Priesthood manual when I was a kid? Nibley. It will be a chilly afternoon in gehenna before that day comes again.

When I say raised the bar, I am also talking about standards that were lived by the missionary previous to the mission field. Also, I don't know anywhere near the scriptural support that you or anyone on this board most likely so I am not going to argue that one. But I was in an AP meeting with kids who were rattling off scriptural references left and right. And I must say, it was quite impressive. In fact I truly wish I had that ability to the extent they do. But I also learned a long time ago how to teach with the spirit. If someone can't feel the spirit or accept that spirit, as even on here, scriptural support is mute. I am also not saying "raising the bar" means that we are better missionaries or that those before couldn't stack up. But they have raised standards on those who want to go. I know a great deal of people, even in my own stake, that would not be going had they waited 4-6 more months. I am also not ACCUSING you or trying to MAKE YOU sound inferior. Take this for instance, when my dad went on his mission, he was only in a mission home for 5 days before being shipped out, obviously he would be able to fullfill the expectations of missionaries of this new generation. But the standards and expectations were infact raised. And for kids who are just entering, they don't know the contrast between past and present. So their exposure to such a strong spirit weeds out those who just don't have the desire to be there. And I don't know how one could fight the feeling of guilt that comes from unworthiness, I personally wouldn't even be concerned with who I let down. That feeling makes me squirm, and it is the most condemning, horrific feeling in the world. So again, that is another thing I can't understand that maybe I would like to. I guess it is my perspective, I have one person that I don't want to dissappoint, and that's the Lord. If I take the neccessary steps to repentance and turn things around(provided I have done something wrong), and my family is dissapointed in me and holds it against me. That is there problem, because once you repent, the Lord forgets about it and you move on. So again, my perspective is just a little more Eternal.

The bar hasn't been raised so much as the monkeys are now more tightly caged and controlled (not too offensive a metaphor, I hope). There is less freedom and more structure and control. A mission is designed more and more to be a tool to instill life-long devotion to THE CHURCH via the missionary experience, and less and less about obtaining converts.

I KNOW about missionaries, too. I have 3 nephews from 27 to 22 years of age, all of them returned missionaries. Our house whne I was a teenager was right around the corner from the mishies apartments, and my mom was the unofficial mishie "mom". They did their laundry at our house on p-day. My brother was a missionary and my parents served one, too.

[Cal]

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 12 2004, 04:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 12 2004, 04:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 12 2004, 03:21 PM

I don't know about that. All I can say is that while I was on my mission, for the most part, I was sexually abstinent.

Well, I'm glad to know that the maggots did well for you!

Maggots? Did I miss something in my 'street' talk sex education? Does it feel good?

[Cal]

Porter--you need to realize that the world is not black and white. Just because I said to quit being so hard on yourself, didn't mean that I was advocating living a life of sin and degredation.

Just remember, I doubt the Lord will be as hard on you as you are on yourself. If circumstances lead you to going on a mission, fine. But don't feel you are less of a 'servent of the Lord' if you don't. Any good work you are involved with is 'serving the Lord'. If it's good, it is of the Lord.