I'm Tired of Suicidal Thoughts

[Guest]

And self-harm wouldn't be sought unless there was a perceived benefit on some level. You're talking about people self-harming for the heck of it. I don't buy it. On some level the desire for self harm is going to be a response to a perceived benefit in that self harming. Timp talked about how he wants to commit suicide (even if he's not going to) because he hates himself. Suicide is perceived as a solution to the problem of him hating himself else the connection wouldn't be there.

And here it is. There's our problem. Let me see if I can get you to understand it this way:

First of all, it is a chemical imbalance. The neurotransmitters or serotonins or whatever it is that doctors are still trying to figure out today... that are produced when I feel angry is completely disproportional to the amount normally produced by regular people exposed to the same triggers, causing my heartrate to increase so much so that my head would get so hot I literally see red. Hence, doctors prescribe medication to balance it out. Knowing that this amount of anger is of no benefit to me does not change the fact that it IS there.

Timpman's case is not triggered by anger - his is triggered by depression. People without chemical imbalances can be angry and can be depressed without getting out of control and maintaining their logical faculties because the amount of chemicals released is just enough to produce the desired reaction to environmental triggers. What a normal person would feel as the "case of the Mondays" or "feeling blue" in somebody like Timpman would be completely dangerous as to cause him to self-loathe to the point of killing himself. And you have to agree that it is a very rare person who has never felt "blue" in their lives.

In a normal person, anger that produces just enough chemicals for somebody to raise their voice, in a person such as myself would produce too much that it ends up in me getting so angry I would literally feel the need to kill somebody... or kill myself. And just like the "blues" it is a very rare person who can go through life without ever feeling angry.

Those with chemical imbalances - think bipolar, schizophrenic, manic depressive, autistic, or in general, the mentally challenged - lose control of the emotion because the chemical produced is a lot more (and in some cases a lot less) than the emotion requires. Now, it is easy for people to look at an autistic child and say - okay, he's psychologically different, so I can understand why he gets over-stimulated by normal social chatter and throw poop at people (yeah, happened in my son's school's Spec Ed classroom). It is a lot more difficult to look at MY CHILD (showing signs of the same problem as I have) who otherwise is completely normal, all of a sudden punch his brother in the face for saying something benign, or banging his head with his fists until bloody because he can't get an image out of his head, and think - he has a psychological imbalance. Because, there are a lot of children who punch their brothers in the face because their parents never taught them any better or they're just brats or they see it done all the time by other family members or TV. You kinda have to be cognizant that there is such a thing as a psychological imbalance that cannot be countered by just normal disciplinary actions.

The advantage of me having been through this and seeing the signs my child is exhibiting is I can start his training very very early - something I never had the opportunity with because nobody understood what was going on, least of all me. I am hoping that by the time my son goes through puberty he may have mastered some effective tricks to redirect that energy so that he has a chance of rising above the imbalance when hormonal changes exacerbate the problem. And hopefully, just like I was able to do, he can get this under control without the medication. I'll let you know in 10 years if we succeeded.

Edited April 17, 2012 by anatess

[Dravin]

First of all, it is a chemical imbalance. The neurotransmitters or serotonins or whatever it is that doctors are still trying to figure out today... that are produced when I feel angry is completely disproportional to the amount normally produced by regular people exposed to the same triggers, causing my heartrate to increase so much so that my head would get so hot I literally see red. Hence, doctors prescribe medication to balance it out. Knowing that this amount of anger is of no benefit to me does not change the fact that it IS there.

There is a perceived benefit in anger. The common ones are we feel in control or powerful. It's a solution to a feeling of a loss of control. Flying off the handle is your solution to various stimuli. That we use a solution doesn't mean it's a good solution. That one is tilting at windmills does not mean you aren't using tilting as a solution for windmills.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Dravin

[Guest]

There is a perceived benefit in the anger. The common ones are we feel in control or powerful. It's a solution to a feeling of a loss of control. Flying off the handle is your solution to various stimuli. That we use a solution doesn't mean it's a good solution. That one is tilting at windmills does not mean one's solution to windmills isn't to tilt at them.

The way I understand what you are saying is that you are indicating that this is something I have chosen as a solution to the perceived threat/danger - either by realization, learned behavior or habit - as I recognize a perceived benefit to the response.

This is not true in my case. Normal anger, sure. I can choose to be angry, even raging mad, and I can choose to let it go depending on how I feel is the appropriate response to the event - most of the time learned from my parents' examples or from teachings of the Church or cultural norms, etc. But, this rage that I sometimes experience is not something my intelligence/spirit/cognitive matter chose or even feels is the solution to the stimuli. Like I said before, when it happens, it completely feels like my intelligence/spirit/i-really-don't-know-what-you-call-this-awareness is disembodied, separated from my physical self so much so that my intelligence is trying its best to take charge of the situation but have zero control over what happens.

Now, if you're trying to say that my body has it's own intelligence that I'm not aware of separate from my own awareness/spirit then that might make sense. That is getting into demonic possession though that I completely disavow as what is happening to me during these episodes.

[Dravin]

The way I understand what you are saying is that you are indicating that this is something I have chosen as a solution to the perceived threat/danger - either by realization, learned behavior or habit.

Or reflex.There are also unconscious motivations. Someone who was abused and thus confuses sex with love and thus is promiscuous so they can feel 'love' isn't sitting down to decide, "My solution to abuse and a confusion over love and sex and a need to feel loved is to engage in frequent sexual relationships." They're instinctively (there may be a better word) having sex because it makes them feel loved on some level. Which means the cognitive choice distinction you're making is a moot one from my perspective. Whatever you want to call it there is a separation between wanting to commit suicide and committing suicide. A comment was made about committing being selfish, to my knowledge nobody claimed (and I may have missed it) that chemical imbalances leading one to want to commit suicide are selfish. Which is where I think you err in blurring the 'minimizing of pain' together.

Someone responding to someone who wants to kill themselves because they hate themselves with:

1) Don't commit suicide, it's an incredibly selfish act.

Is not minimizing the pain, the hating of one's self so bad they want to kill themselves. And yes, I'm inclined to agree it's not a terribly productive comment to make.

2) You hate yourself? Suck it up Buck-o. <- To make it excruciatingly clear I'm not trying to obliquely direct this at Timpman.

That's minimizing his pain.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Dravin

[Guest]

Or reflex.There are also unconscious motivations. Someone who was abused and thus confuses sex with love and thus is promiscuous so they can feel 'love' isn't sitting down to decide, "My solution to abuse and a confusion over love and sex and a need to feel loved is to engage in frequent sexual relationships." They're instinctively (there may be a better word) having sex because it makes them feel loved on some level. Which means the cognitive choice distinction you're making is a moot one from my perspective.

Not in my case. It is, once I understood what was going on, a completely physical imbalance. I can feel it happening within just as strongly as someone that feels the physical changes happen when nearing sexual orgasm. The elevated heart rate, the shaking, the hazing of consciousness, and me inwardly screaming, "Oh no, oh no, oh no!". This has been happening since I was old enough to remember feeling it. The first event that I completely remember the feeling was when I was in 1st grade and I rode another girl in the playground like she was a bull at the rodeo, pushing her to the ground repeatedly... for no apparent reason. When I got a bit older, I threw a knife at my sister. A little older, I slapped my mother's hand with a knife. All events that has no connection to any learned behavior or abuse history (yes, I have this history but rage pre-dates it). It is not a cognitive choice. If it is - the choice will present itself all the time everytime when the stimuli is present. As it happens, the rage occurs seemingly at random - I've isolated it to the lunar cycles and the "period" cycles and the amount of sunlight. But, there are still times when the rage happens outside of these three events. I can't pinpoint a cause for those times. When I was pregnant, the rages occur on a constant basis for the 9 months I was pregnant plus the 3 or so months post-partum. My husband went through a personal daily hell.

Whatever you want to call it there is a separation between wanting to commit suicide and committing suicide. A comment was made about committing being selfish, to my knowledge nobody claimed (and I may have missed it) that chemical imbalances leading one to want to commit suicide are selfish. Which is where I think you err in blurring the 'minimizing of pain' together.

Someone responding to someone who wants to kill themselves because they hate themselves with:

1) Don't commit suicide, it's an incredibly selfish act.

Is not minimizing the pain, the hating of one's self so bad they want to kill themselves. And yes, I'm inclined to agree it's not a terribly productive comment to make.

2) You hate yourself? Suck it up Buck-o. <- To make it excruciatingly clear I'm not trying to obliquely direct this at Timpman.

That's minimizing his pain.

That's why we got into this discussion. Pam mentioned selfish, you followed it up. I tried to explain how in Timpman's case, it has completely nothing to do with selfishness with explanation touching on chemical imbalance that you summarily dismissed.

When you have a war going on inside and you are constantly winning it - sometimes easily, sometimes paying a heavy price - it is the height of unselfishness that you even bother to fight it. And if he ever loses the war, it won't be for selfishness. God chose to allow us this burden. Failing the test after all we can do is something we can only offer to the power of the Atonement.

Edited April 17, 2012 by anatess

[Dravin]

Not in my case.

I think you may have misunderstood my moot comment. If it's a cognitive choice or not is moot because people can seek solutions non-cognitively. So the fact that you can't consciously control it doesn't mean your psyche isn't reaching for rage as a solution to a trigger.

Pam mentioned selfish, you followed it up.

In post order but not in topic. Something tells me you might be surprised to realize that I have not once in this thread advanced the position that suicide, or suicidal tendencies, are selfish.

I tried to explain how in Timpman's case, it has completely nothing to do with selfishness with explanation touching on chemical imbalance that you summarily dismissed.

You said this:

Suicidal tendencies are selfish, yes.

And then you referred to your own situation, as far as I can tell as a point of comparison:

I know it is selfish and evil.

That's not, "It has nothing to do with selfishness."

Then you started talking about needing a lobby for compassion. And we got into the topic of if saying suicide is selfish is minimizing the pain or minimizing the solution to that pain which then went to the topic of if certain behaviors are solutions or not.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Dravin

[Timpman]

When you have a war going on inside and you are constantly winning it - sometimes easily, sometimes paying a heavy price - it is the height of unselfishness that you even bother to fight it. And if he ever loses the war, it won't be for selfishness. God chose to allow us this burden. Failing the test after all we can do is something we can only offer to the power of the Atonement.

That was awesome. I think we need to keep in mind the following:

It is wrong to take a life, including one’s own. However, a person who commits suicide may not be responsible for his or her acts. Only God can judge such a matter.

The family, in consultation with the bishop, determines the place and nature of a funeral service for a person who has died under such circumstances. Church facilities may be used. If the person was endowed, he or she may be buried in temple clothing. Selected Church Policies 

By no means am I taking that to justify suicide. We just need to withhold judgement. Selfishness may have nothing to do with it when someone commits suicide.

[bcguy]

Unfortunately, my wife has anger and paranoid issues. It has not been as bad since she seriously injured her self. She probably saw I had more to offer her since..I was feeling like leaving her. She still does have anger issues, but not as bad as they used to be.

BTW, Lots of anger can kill you. There has been studies that men who have serious anger issues, die early in life from cardiac arrest. Soon after, read a article about a husband who had some real anger issue, and went into cardiac arrest.

There is a perceived benefit in anger. The common ones are we feel in control or powerful. It's a solution to a feeling of a loss of control. Flying off the handle is your solution to various stimuli. That we use a solution doesn't mean it's a good solution. That one is tilting at windmills does not mean you aren't using tilting as a solution for windmills.

[bcguy]

Timpman,

What in your life right now, brings you happiness? Relatives visiting and laughing?, Kids laughing and smiling?

There are probably some things in your life you cannot control right now. I can understand the issues with the job. Right now, I have no job. Ended a contract that came in that netted me some really good money for over a month. THANK GOD if he did provide me this work, because I have not made so much money in 6 weeks from this came contact company, then in the last four years..at a time when my wife is on disability.

What is the job prospects in your area like? I think a switch would be possibly a good thing. Have you weighed in what your current job pays, vs a apprenticeship?

[Dove]

Hello, Timpman;

Thanks so much for you honesty on this forum. My heart goes out to you as you struggle with the awful feelings of fear, depression, and suicidal ideation...

Just so you know, I've dealt with those symptoms most of my life. The hard thing about it for me is that I've been through numerous anti-depressants and am now on psychiatric disability for those symptoms, and other issues. The hard thing about it is that, although I'm on some hideously expensive meds, my depression/fear/loneliness isn't that much better. I wish I could stop my meds; but, since I've started them, I can't easily get off of them without terrible repercussions....

I am not trained and am not offering clinical advice. I would just ask for you to please be very careful and do a lot of research into the meds the doctors will try to give you before allowing yourself to be started on them.

That being said, some things that get me really depressed/suicidal ideation is when I am sick and/or really tired. My visiting teacher happens (I think this was a really inspired calling for me to have her as my VT) to be a psychologist....she has counseled me to exercise every day to get my endorphins going. My own psychologist counsels me to "feel the fear and do" whatever it is I was wanting to do anyway...Like getting up in the morning, cleaning my house, paying bills and getting outside in public. I know these things may be hard to do; but, are crucial to my mental well being.

Timpman, I'm curious as to why you asked for people to stop posting about your OP....Please know I really feel for what you are going through. If I could, I'd offer you a big hug....Please hang on and get whatever help you can to deal with this. For me, priesthood blessings, friends just talking to me, walks and a lot of prayer have helped. I guess I am concerned because I know how close I've come to carrying out my suicidal "thoughts" in the past and have had a friend do so. Her doctor changed her meds on her.....and she fell prey to her symptoms....

Please don't forget to pray when you're struggling with these things. Reach out for help to whomever will be there for you. It frightens me that you're experiencing these thoughts in the morning, after what I assume you've gotten sleep and so aren't so tired.

There are also support groups for depression and the like.

You are a beloved child of God. He hasn't forgotten you. The Saviour knows perfectly the pain you are experiencing right now and stands at the ready to love and support you in this. Please don't give up, as hard as it may seem. Do all that you can to treat this and get help. I believe that effort will open the heavens for grace to enter in and for the comfort and guidance of the Holy Ghost to help you through this.

The Best,

Dove

[Dove]

PS

I have gone through ECT; electro-convulsive-therapy. It was the worst thing I ever did. I would not recommend it to anyone. Every one I have talked to about it wouldn't recommend it either. It is a last ditch stand to try to help; however, it is an archaic form of treatment that didn't work for me, or anyone I have talked to....

Also, you are not selfish for struggling with something like this....Pray for a sense of your worth and value, to be comforted just to get through. You are worth fighting through this....

I will share one thing. I've prayed and prayed to die over time and, at some points, about suicide. One night as I was praying about suicide the Spirit strongly warned me that I would "stand condemned" if I did. I don't know if you would get the same answer; but, maybe it's worth it to really pray about your strugglings to get your answer. Scripture study really helps me to get through hard times as well.

[Dravin]

That was awesome. I think we need to keep in mind the following:

By no means am I taking that to justify suicide. We just need to withhold judgement. Selfishness may have nothing to do with it when someone commits suicide.

For what it's worth, and at this point you've probably written me off as someone who cares not a wit about you even though that's not true, I agree that someone who is seriously contemplating suicide may very well be in a comprimised state of mind and such judgements are best up to the Lord.

[Timpman]

What in your life right now, brings you happiness? Relatives visiting and laughing?, Kids laughing and smiling?

Mostly my two-year-old girl. She is a delight. I also like mountain biking, but it seems like too much of a hassle to go out much.

What is the job prospects in your area like? I think a switch would be possibly a good thing. Have you weighed in what your current job pays, vs a apprenticeship?

I'm in the Salt Lake/Utah County area. I have no idea what else I could do. I did mention I'm in a call center, but I'm actually a licensed stock broker working on transferring in assets from other firms.

[Timpman]

I wish I could stop my meds; but, since I've started them, I can't easily get off of them without terrible repercussions....

I am not trained and am not offering clinical advice. I would just ask for you to please be very careful and do a lot of research into the meds the doctors will try to give you before allowing yourself to be started on them.

Dove, thanks for your post. Effexor is so lousy for me, so I know what you mean. My favorite medication site, Crazymeds, says this: "For many people Effexor XR has the absolute worst discontinuation syndrome of an antidepressant. Effexor (venlafaxine hydrochloride) is a medication people utterly loathe to have taken. It is not uncommon for someone to fire doctors during or immediately after they quit taking Effexor XR(venlafaxine hydrochloride)." Crazy Meds: The Good, The Bad, & The Funny of: - Meds - Effexor

I have tried to quit several times but it messes me up.

Timpman, I'm curious as to why you asked for people to stop posting about your OP.

I figured it was a mistake to post that here, but it wasn't. I guess I'll rule out ECT.

[Timpman]

I really like this site. I was just reading about Remeron:

At any dosage it will make you crave doughnuts. Seriously. You will want to invest in Krispy Kreme stock (or maybe something along similar lines that isn’t tanking); as Remeron’s antagonism of the serotonin 5HT2C and H1 receptors gives you the munchies for carbohydrates and sugars like you were 16 and smoking the best pot ever in the parking lot of a strip mall with a 24-hour doughnut shop beckoning you with glazed and jelly-filled ecstasy. People dipping spoons into a bag of sugar and eating it as is - not unheard of when on Remeron. Crazy Meds: The Good, The Bad, & The Funny of: - Meds - Remeron

[Monkeyzenz]

Well I had the same thought once in a while. Everything in the world seems not to work out for me. The only thing that kept me alive is my family.... like Elder Holland said, Think of the picture of the one you love before you make any (bad) decision.

[Timpman]

Well I had the same thought once in a while. Everything in the world seems not to work out for me. The only thing that kept me alive is my family.... like Elder Holland said, Think of the picture of the one you love before you make any (bad) decision.

Hang in there, bro.