Lesson - Book Of Mormon

[Snow]

Well,

I taught my priesthood lesson last week on the Book of Mormon translation process.

A kind and thoughtful board would ask me how it went.

[Jenda]

Snow, I would really like to hear how it went. Could you tell us?

[Guest curvette]

Oh, hey Snow. How did your lesson on the Book of Mormon translation process go?

[Cal]

Have you been disfellowshiped yet?

[Snow]

Thanks for asking, I was to shy, (and humble) to say anything.

I was preparing for it for about 3 weeks and when I first printed it out, it came to 53 pages. By Sunday Mormon I had it down to 34 pages. One of the quorum members who had to teach the deacons heard that I was teaching it and didn't want to miss it so he brought the deacon quorum in to listen. I started out telling the story of how on the night Joseph was to go to Hill Cummorah, he and Emma borrowed without permission (I think I said "temporarily stole") the horse and wagon of Joseph Knight who was staying with the Smiths. In the morning, he was frantic that his horse was missing but Lucy covers for Joseph (who was not back yet) and says that the horse must have wandered off to a remote part of the pasture and that she would send William to fetch the horse. Knight responds that his wagon was missing too (wagons don't wander off)! That's a great detail. If you subcribe to the fraud viewpoint of the BoM, Joseph must have been pretty clever to have thought to steal a horse and wagon as part of the ruse, that early on.

I was pretty hyped and animated and would kind of blurt out "ooh, ooh" whenever I recalled something fascinating about the story.

Then I launched into a survey of various incidents leading up to the translation (conjuerer and necromance per Brigham Young) - diverged long enough to introduce the study of the BoM as a literary work (so as to gain a greater appreciation for the marvel of the translation process).... and then the Pres, announced that there were 5 minutes left in the hour... and I hadn't even started the main thrust of the lesson yet - the actual translation process; I was still only up to page 13 in my notes. The class was so engrossed that the Pres just asked me to stop where I was and to pick up the lesson for next week, and the week thereafter if needed.

As it so happens, a high priest caught the last 5 minutes and wanted to ask in the high priest quorum next week for the rest of lesson. Now, if nobody squeals on me to the Bishop, I should do well next week. I have to say that I am quite enthused with the opportunity to share my excitement in a lesson and thanks to this board, and some research, know a little bit about what I'm talking about; and that's what I'm talk'n bout thanks ever so much for ask'n.

[Guest Starsky]

Wow....too bad you live somewhere else...we could use some 'life' in our ward. LOL or boo hoo...

[Jenda]

Snow, can you come to my church and talk? :)

[Cal]

Sounds like you put a lot of work into it---your Ward is lucky to have you.

By the way---not to take anything away from your presentation---you said, "If you subcribe to the fraud viewpoint of the BoM, Joseph must have been pretty clever to have thought to steal a horse and wagon as part of the ruse, that early on."

I don't necessarily subscribe to everything that is included in the "fraud theory", but I don't see how this is that incompatible with it. Who knows how early JS may have been thinking about writing or producing the BoM.

Also, there isn't much doubt that JS, early on, was deceiving people into thinking he could uncover buried treasure with the use of his "peep" stone. It was the reason that his father-in-law didn't like him. It is pretty clear that JS wasn't above some lying or deception. It doesn't prove he was doing so with regard to the BoM, but fraud isn't out of the picture either.

[Guest Starsky]

I don't know....everyone around him seemed pretty impressed with his character....

There are more who trusted and loved him, than those who called foul. From my experience...a person who works with a guy that closely knows him best....not the outside critics...

And a FIL is hardly a reference...mine hated me because my mil was jealous that I was tall, thin, blond, young and my fil flirted wtih me....she was short and fat....

so she set out to destroy my fil's like for me ....and she did a good job...she was actually the one who deceived. (but that is a very long and unpleasant story).

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Lucy covers for Joseph (who was not back yet) and says that the horse must have wandered off to a remote part of the pasture and that she would send William to fetch the horse. Knight responds that his wagon was missing too (wagons don't wander off)! That's a great detail

I love that.

KNIGHT: (skeptically) Uh huh. And I suppose my wagon is off grazing in the far pasture, too.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 11 2004, 07:59 AM

I don't necessarily subscribe to everything that is included in the "fraud theory", but I don't see how this is that incompatible with it. Who knows how early JS may have been thinking about writing or producing the BoM.

Also, there isn't much doubt that JS, early on, was deceiving people into thinking he could uncover buried treasure with the use of his "peep" stone. It was the reason that his father-in-law didn't like him. It is pretty clear that JS wasn't above some lying or deception. It doesn't prove he was doing so with regard to the BoM, but fraud isn't out of the picture either.

I agree, it's not incompatible but it seems odd that months and months before Joseph starts translating, he would have the foresight to 'steal' a horse and and wagon as part of the 'charade.' It means little in and of itself, but there are a ba-zillion of these little tidbits. 1. There make for facsinating reading - history comes alive, and 2. to my mind, they add up to something that almost certainly (though not absolutely) precludes fraud.

...and yes, certainly JS was involved in "glass-looking" or treasure screeing. He went so far as to specify his wages from it for a Church newspaper and adds that he was never much good at it. JS was a product of the folk-magic millieu of his time/place era. Again, it makes for great history, and for me, it makes me all the more marvel at how just a short while earlier he was a squirrely guy looking for treasure, barely scrapping by to support his family, barely able to write a coherent sentence (according to Emma) and then in the depths of his depression, having lost the 116 pages because of his audacity, he suddenly, and without warning, is speaking prophetically in the first person voice of God with power and authority:

1 THE works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught.

2 For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round.

3 Remember, remember that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men;

4 For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.

...and because Joseph was involved in folk-magic does not mean he was lying. By all accounts, he truly believed that his seer stone had magic powers. Personally I think that it was him that had the gift of prophecy and sight, he just didn't comprehend fullly its source or proper scope. The stone was a crutch to help him bridge the familiar and superstitious to the divine and supernatural. That's my current thinking anyway.

[Guest lt]

Snow,

very nice, I would love to hear how next week goes...keep us up to date.

LaurelTree

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

So you didn't get a chance to talk about the rock in the hat?

[Snow]

There was no mention of the rock and there was no mention of the hat. However, the rock and the hat will come together in all their splendor in next week's lesson when I pick up from whence I left.

The lesson that was supposed to be given is Comfort in a time of Dying from the Heber J. Grant manual. Let's hope that no one in the quorum has had a recent death in the family and is in deperate need of that topic.

ps: ...although I have talked to people (the EQ Presidency and a High Priest) individually about the rock and about the hat. They all kind of tilted their heads to the side and got a puzzled look on their face, then concern which slowly gave way to an expression of interest and anticipation.... kind of like me when I first heard it, except I probably said Bull****! initially.

[porterrockwell]

Hey Snow, would you mind e-mailing me that 53 page summary. You sparked my interest, and I am really interested in what you have written thus far. Or at least giving me the more inspired parts.

[Snow]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 02:33 PM

Hey Snow, would you mind e-mailing me that 53 page summary. You sparked my interest, and I am really interested in what you have written thus far. Or at least giving me the more inspired parts.

Porter,

It's not really in "final-form". It's a lesson, not a talk, but if you have an email option to your user profile, I can send you some stuff tonight or tomorrow. I'll maybe post some stuff on the board if I think it would interest anyone.

[porterrockwell]

my email address is [email protected]

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 11 2004, 02:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 11 2004, 02:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 02:33 PM

Hey Snow, would you mind e-mailing me that 53 page summary.  You sparked my interest, and I am really interested in what you have written thus far.  Or at least giving me the more inspired parts.

Porter,

It's not really in "final-form". It's a lesson, not a talk, but if you have an email option to your user profile, I can send you some stuff tonight or tomorrow. I'll maybe post some stuff on the board if I think it would interest anyone.

Yes, posting would be nice.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 11 2004, 12:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 11 2004, 12:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 11 2004, 07:59 AM

I don't necessarily subscribe to everything that is included in the "fraud theory", but I don't see how this is that incompatible with it. Who knows how early JS may have been thinking about writing or producing the BoM.

Also, there isn't much doubt that JS, early on, was deceiving people into thinking he could uncover buried treasure with the use of his "peep" stone. It was the reason that his father-in-law didn't like him. It is pretty clear that JS wasn't above some lying or deception. It doesn't prove he was doing so with regard to the BoM, but fraud isn't out of the picture either.

I agree, it's not incompatible but it seems odd that months and months before Joseph starts translating, he would have the foresight to 'steal' a horse and and wagon as part of the 'charade.' It means little in and of itself, but there are a ba-zillion of these little tidbits. 1. There make for facsinating reading - history comes alive, and 2. to my mind, they add up to something that almost certainly (though not absolutely) precludes fraud.

...and yes, certainly JS was involved in "glass-looking" or treasure screeing. He went so far as to specify his wages from it for a Church newspaper and adds that he was never much good at it. JS was a product of the folk-magic millieu of his time/place era. Again, it makes for great history, and for me, it makes me all the more marvel at how just a short while earlier he was a squirrely guy looking for treasure, barely scrapping by to support his family, barely able to write a coherent sentence (according to Emma) and then in the depths of his depression, having lost the 116 pages because of his audacity, he suddenly, and without warning, is speaking prophetically in the first person voice of God with power and authority:

1 THE works, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught.

2 For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round.

3 Remember, remember that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men;

4 For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.

...and because Joseph was involved in folk-magic does not mean he was lying. By all accounts, he truly believed that his seer stone had magic powers. Personally I think that it was him that had the gift of prophecy and sight, he just didn't comprehend fullly its source or proper scope. The stone was a crutch to help him bridge the familiar and superstitious to the divine and supernatural. That's my current thinking anyway.

Snow--with all due respect, several points you made here were either misleading, off point or irrelevent.

First, between the time JS was looking for treasure and the time he lost the 116 pages was AT LEAST 4 years. A person can learn and mature a lot in that time, especially in late teens, early twenties.(misleading)

Second, the fact that JS may not have been much of a writer is irrelevant in that JS didn't do ANY of the writing of the BoM that I have ever heard of. He had scribes.

Third, how does being in a depression prove that you can't speak coherently--very tenuous connection. Some people react to stress with aggressive abandon. In fact, it doesn't seem strange at all to me that JS would start pontificating and "thus saith the Lord" -ing to cover up his insecurity.

Fourth, where is the "prophesy" exactly. Another interpretation of your quote could easily be that he is simply saying, "don't mess with me because God is on my side. I'm going to prevail." Hardly a novel claim--it's the same claim many religionist make. And, one could make a pretty good case that he didn't prevail. He was killed. It all depends upon one's definition of the term "frustrate". In any case, simply asserting that one is right and ones adversaries are wrong is hardly prophetic. And I don't find the prose particular interesting. Sounds like he is just trying to sound religious.

[Snow]

Fair enough Cal, here's some feedback.

1st: Up to the time that JS actually engaged in the BoM project, off hand I can't think of anything of note that he had accomplished - nothing that would fortell the religious burst of genius that the BoM project would kick off. So maybe he was a number of years removed from his squirreliest but not that far removed.

2nd: Whatever. Scribing was just the mechanical process of recording what JS authored. Are you aware of anything JS authored, recorded by himself or by a scribe, prior to the the first revelations of the D&C, post-116 pages that indicated the glory (if you will) that was about to pour out of JS?

3rd: The point about the depression is that after a year of having the plates, JS had nothing to show for it. He seemed on the verge of giving it all up. Then suddenly new revelation, powerful new revelation, and then the BoM itself just started pouring out, out of the blue. You're not impressed. Okay. I am.

4th: By "prophet" or prophetically, I mean one who speaks for god, not one who predicts the future. It's a common meaning of the word.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 11 2004, 07:42 PM

Fair enough Cal, here's some feedback.

1st: Up to the time that JS actually engaged in the BoM project, off hand I can't think of anything of note that he had accomplished - nothing that would fortell the religious burst of genius that the BoM project would kick off. So maybe he was a number of years removed from his squirreliest but not that far removed.

2nd: Whatever. Scribing was just the mechanical process of recording what JS authored. Are you aware of anything JS authored, recorded by himself or by a scribe, prior to the the first revelations of the D&C, post-116 pages that indicated the glory (if you will) that was about to pour out of JS?

3rd: The point about the depression is that after a year of having the plates, JS had nothing to show for it. He seemed on the verge of giving it all up. Then suddenly new revelation, powerful new revelation, and then the BoM itself just started pouring out, out of the blue. You're not impressed. Okay. I am.

4th: By "prophet" or prophetically, I mean one who speaks for god, not one who predicts the future. It's a common meaning of the word.

Just a couple of things....during the four years between "Moroni's first visit" and the BoM process, Joseph was said to have related, verbally, stories of the ancient native americans to his family. Whether that was the result of revelation or not, is not the point. He clearly had been developing story telling capacity.

And that is all that is at issue here, isn't it?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 11 2004, 07:54 PM

He clearly had been developing story telling capacity.

And that is all that is at issue here, isn't it?

Certainly for you that is all that is at issue and clearly for me it is not. For me it is a deeply moving and life-altering 'experience' full of intricate literary merit, beautiful christology, and gospel truth... all dictated in a stream of consciousness, with great rapidity and without missing a beat. Each his own, I guess.

[porterrockwell]

First off, being physically killed does not mean that he was conquered. Joseph Smith was needed to set forth the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He served the Lord well and was needed greatly by our Heavenly Father beyond the vail. Ever heard "he who shall lose his life, shall find it again in me"(roughly speaking). Joseph Smith stood in the face of a mob and did not denounce his work, nor the Glory of God. No man in the History of this earth has done more for the salvation of Mankind save it be Jesus Christ.

[Snow]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 11 2004, 08:48 PM

No man in the History of this earth has done more for the salvation of Mankind save it be Jesus Christ.

Apparently you are not familiar with the work of Philo Farnsworth or Ira Gershwin.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 11 2004, 08:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 11 2004, 08:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 11 2004, 07:54 PM

He clearly had been developing story telling capacity.

And that is all that is at issue here, isn't it?

Certainly for you that is all that is at issue and clearly for me it is not. For me it is a deeply moving and life-altering 'experience' full of intricate literary merit, beautiful christology, and gospel truth... all dictated in a stream of consciousness, with great rapidity and without missing a beat. Each his own, I guess.

All of which can be accounted for, if one needs to account for it or even agrees, by reference to normal human experience.(great story telling ability--Shakespear, gospel truth---rarely varies from the bible, christology--almost the bible verbatim) None of these things are cause for claims of the supernatural IMHO.

Nevertheless, I respect your choice to believe what you wish and need. :)