Miracle of the Five Loaves and Two Fish

[Traveler]

I do not think you understand the concept I am putting forward. The human brain is the means by which our spirit has access to that which is physical plus the ability to receive spiritual input through thoughts and “feelings” planted into our brain by other spirits – weather they be good or evil.

The human brain must develop – because the spirit is blind when a child is born, both to the physical world around us, all things of the spirit to which we previously had access and to recall (memory) – except for that which is allowed through the filters of the brain. If the brain does not develop properly our eternal spirit operates on faulty inputs. No one is accountable for that which altered before the spirit receives it or what our spirit is unable to properly understand. The point being that there is no spirit flaws but an individual’s spirit is handicapped because it’s only access to things physical or spiritual are all filter through the brain. If a brain is not properly developed or damaged then the spirit must deal with whatever input it is able to receive. And like a flight recorder in an airplane all inputs received by the spirit, acted upon by the spirit and responded to by the spirit are recorded and stored as thoughts (See Alma 12:14)

What I do not like about your understanding is that the brain is a separate entity able to act for itself – thus if a brain acted improperly it should be punished and not the spirit. But with my understanding the brain is but a platform from which our spirit can observe, act and react – can choose and appoint. And as you have pointed out – not necessarily to the physical around is but to that part – real or distorted - of which is filtered to us.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I do not think you understand the concept I am putting forward. The human brain is the means by which our spirit has access to that which is physical plus the ability to receive spiritual input through thoughts and “feelings” planted into our brain by other spirits – weather they be good or evil.

The human brain must develop – because the spirit is blind when a child is born, both to the physical world around us, all things of the spirit to which we previously had access and to recall (memory) – except for that which is allowed through the filters of the brain. If the brain does not develop properly our eternal spirit operates on faulty inputs. No one is accountable for that which altered before the spirit receives it or what our spirit is unable to properly understand. The point being that there is no spirit flaws but an individual’s spirit is handicapped because it’s only access to things physical or spiritual are all filter through the brain. If a brain is not properly developed or damaged then the spirit must deal with whatever input it is able to receive. And like a flight recorder in an airplane all inputs received by the spirit, acted upon by the spirit and responded to by the spirit are recorded and stored as thoughts (See Alma 12:14)

What I do not like about your understanding is that the brain is a separate entity able to act for itself – thus if a brain acted improperly it should be punished and not the spirit. But with my understanding the brain is but a platform from which our spirit can observe, act and react – can choose and appoint. And as you have pointed out – not necessarily to the physical around is but to that part – real or distorted - of which is filtered to us.

The Traveler

I completely agree with your second paragraph but would add to it that anyone's brain has not developed "properly". We all have corrupted, fallen bodies (which of course includes the brain). Or you might say it is damaged. It is damaged through the genetic process which alters our wiring and make up over generations away from the original creation and even away from Adam and Eve's fallen genetics. Do you know of anyone who has a perfect body here?

I completely disagree with your understanding of the brain as described in your third paragraph. The brain can do many things of itself. The semantics of which I think you are trying to make fall into some definition of moral agency or free will in which there would have to be some judgment placed on those independent actions. Like I said before, I could not tell, nor you, which actions in any given individual were specifically generated by the body (one part of our dual being) versus generated by the spirit (the other aspect of the dual being). I have tried to give you examples, but as such it would have to take knowledge of what is in a person's heart to know exactly what is going on.

Let me try one more time. If I am sitting in Fast and Testimony meeting and I am desirous to keep my fast and I am praying all morning long to make it happen, I could still have a thought pop into my head "cheese enchiladas sound really good right now". You would like to tell me, if I am understanding you well, that the brain is incapable of generating such a thought on its own. And so in that case it either had to come from my spirit or some evil spirit. If I am saying that in this example my heart is set on keeping my fast, then why would it come from my spirit? Am I to interpret that thought then that some evil spirit somehow gained control of my body, momentarily to implant an evil thought while I am sitting in Sacrament meeting feeling the spirit?

Let me give you my response to that question and then you can answer how you will. My response is that the brain can and does in fact, scientifically proven and shown, experienced and lived on a daily basis as evidence to myself, produce spontaneous thought that is (my testimony as I can't prove it to you) not generated by my spiritual self. If that is true then, yes, the brain can produce thought and even action as a separate entity.

When I get up to give a talk and my voice waivers even though I want to give a good and direct talk but I start to experience a little stage fright. I start to notice my hand tremble and so then it goes into a little sweating under my lip and the next thing I know, my voice crackles and I can't say what I want to say. I start to loose focus and my say something off of what is really in my heart as the nervousness takes over. You would like to tell me that all of that is because my spirit is in control and made those things happen or that some evil spirit made my body do those things. Let me give you a more correct answer; the brain can be wired to cause that type of reaction and generate that reaction all by itself. It doesn't happen every time and it is completely unpredictable by my conscious awareness of when that kind of thing might happen. In fact as I am experiencing such a thing, the more I focus on it, it becomes more prominent as if I have less and less control. And yet you would like me to understand that I am spiritually responsible for such actions.

Let me give you another example. My cousin's son passed out the first time he was asked to pass the sacrament. This is a good righteous boy and he wanted to pass the sacrament. His nerves got the better of him (or maybe in your mind it was an evil spirit or the weakness of his own spirit). His brain is not just a platform. It generated the nervousness. The next week, he still wanted to pass the sacrament because that is what his spirit wanted to do. But, this time he almost passed out and reacted from that by throwing up in the aisle and obviously could not finish passing the sacrament.

What is a dream? I am not talking about the vision kinds of dreams, I am talking about the every night randomly generated obscure, has no significance dream. Where did that come from if not the ability of the brain's (by itself) ability to generate random, confabulation put into a story line. You want to say it is generated by the spirit or by another spirit. Why? We are unconscious when we sleep. When a person wakes they can remember some of the story line that happened minutes before they woke. Those memories of what happened while in an unconscious state are still flowing through short term memory tracks and that is why we can recall them sometimes. Where did they come from? I will tell you, the brain. Animals have them too. If one disconnects the normal inhibition of the spinal cord during REM sleep in cats, it is observed their movements and actions.

If one sprays some water on someone's face as they are in dreaming sleep, the person might wake saying they dreamed they were in a rainstorm or swimming. But that is a lie. They just had water sprayed on their face. So, where does that lie come from? An evil spirit. You would want me to believe that I could influence an evil spirit to act on someones thought by spraying water on their face while dreaming? To me that is bizarre. A more reasonable explanation is that our brain has the ability to make up information and to add to certain stimuli to be able to try to make sense of the stimulus. It is not just a misinterpretation of the stimulus. It comes with a "story", a lie, a deception, a confabulation to try and make sense of such a stimulus. The brain, by itself, without needing some evil spirit driving the process, can produce stories, misconceptions, lies, 'false truths', false desires, anger, fear, despair, lust, revenge, pride etc. etc. all by itself. Good thing Christ' mission was to overcome this body, to reverse the effects of the Fall.

[Traveler]

I completely agree with your second paragraph but would add to it that anyone's brain has not developed "properly". We all have corrupted, fallen bodies (which of course includes the brain). Or you might say it is damaged. It is damaged through the genetic process which alters our wiring and make up over generations away from the original creation and even away from Adam and Eve's fallen genetics. Do you know of anyone who has a perfect body here?

I completely disagree with your understanding of the brain as described in your third paragraph. The brain can do many things of itself. The semantics of which I think you are trying to make fall into some definition of moral agency or free will in which there would have to be some judgment placed on those independent actions. Like I said before, I could not tell, nor you, which actions in any given individual were specifically generated by the body (one part of our dual being) versus generated by the spirit (the other aspect of the dual being). I have tried to give you examples, but as such it would have to take knowledge of what is in a person's heart to know exactly what is going on.

Let me try one more time. If I am sitting in Fast and Testimony meeting and I am desirous to keep my fast and I am praying all morning long to make it happen, I could still have a thought pop into my head "cheese enchiladas sound really good right now". You would like to tell me, if I am understanding you well, that the brain is incapable of generating such a thought on its own. And so in that case it either had to come from my spirit or some evil spirit. If I am saying that in this example my heart is set on keeping my fast, then why would it come from my spirit? Am I to interpret that thought then that some evil spirit somehow gained control of my body, momentarily to implant an evil thought while I am sitting in Sacrament meeting feeling the spirit?

Let me give you my response to that question and then you can answer how you will. My response is that the brain can and does in fact, scientifically proven and shown, experienced and lived on a daily basis as evidence to myself, produce spontaneous thought that is (my testimony as I can't prove it to you) not generated by my spiritual self. If that is true then, yes, the brain can produce thought and even action as a separate entity.

When I get up to give a talk and my voice waivers even though I want to give a good and direct talk but I start to experience a little stage fright. I start to notice my hand tremble and so then it goes into a little sweating under my lip and the next thing I know, my voice crackles and I can't say what I want to say. I start to loose focus and my say something off of what is really in my heart as the nervousness takes over. You would like to tell me that all of that is because my spirit is in control and made those things happen or that some evil spirit made my body do those things. Let me give you a more correct answer; the brain can be wired to cause that type of reaction and generate that reaction all by itself. It doesn't happen every time and it is completely unpredictable by my conscious awareness of when that kind of thing might happen. In fact as I am experiencing such a thing, the more I focus on it, it becomes more prominent as if I have less and less control. And yet you would like me to understand that I am spiritually responsible for such actions.

Let me give you another example. My cousin's son passed out the first time he was asked to pass the sacrament. This is a good righteous boy and he wanted to pass the sacrament. His nerves got the better of him (or maybe in your mind it was an evil spirit or the weakness of his own spirit). His brain is not just a platform. It generated the nervousness. The next week, he still wanted to pass the sacrament because that is what his spirit wanted to do. But, this time he almost passed out and reacted from that by throwing up in the aisle and obviously could not finish passing the sacrament.

What is a dream? I am not talking about the vision kinds of dreams, I am talking about the every night randomly generated obscure, has no significance dream. Where did that come from if not the ability of the brain's (by itself) ability to generate random, confabulation put into a story line. You want to say it is generated by the spirit or by another spirit. Why? We are unconscious when we sleep. When a person wakes they can remember some of the story line that happened minutes before they woke. Those memories of what happened while in an unconscious state are still flowing through short term memory tracks and that is why we can recall them sometimes. Where did they come from? I will tell you, the brain. Animals have them too. If one disconnects the normal inhibition of the spinal cord during REM sleep in cats, it is observed their movements and actions.

If one sprays some water on someone's face as they are in dreaming sleep, the person might wake saying they dreamed they were in a rainstorm or swimming. But that is a lie. They just had water sprayed on their face. So, where does that lie come from? An evil spirit. You would want me to believe that I could influence an evil spirit to act on someones thought by spraying water on their face while dreaming? To me that is bizarre. A more reasonable explanation is that our brain has the ability to make up information and to add to certain stimuli to be able to try to make sense of the stimulus. It is not just a misinterpretation of the stimulus. It comes with a "story", a lie, a deception, a confabulation to try and make sense of such a stimulus. The brain, by itself, without needing some evil spirit driving the process, can produce stories, misconceptions, lies, 'false truths', false desires, anger, fear, despair, lust, revenge, pride etc. etc. all by itself. Good thing Christ' mission was to overcome this body, to reverse the effects of the Fall.

I will begin with a few questions:

first: Is it possible to remember things concerning Christ without the Holy Ghost? (See John 14:26)

Second: According to that scripture is is possible to learn something of Christ without the assistance of the Holy Ghost?

Brigham Young said something like - There is no pain that we can experience that is not caused by a evil spirit.

Can evil spirits influence righteous individuals? Lets ask this another way. Can a righteous individual be tempted? (see Luke chapter 4)

What will happen to the earth when Satan is bound for 1,000 years?

Is it possible for a person to sin without the assistance of Satan or his angles? -- if so then by what means would we know if Satan has entered into someone's heart or not?

Why did Jesus testify in every case when an individual suffered "mental" problems that a evil spirit was involved and needed to be "cast out"? -- if you know of and exception, I would be most interested.

Can a person have a talent that is not a gift of the spirit? Can you give an example?

Part of my problem is that if we have a faulty brain - why would any person be accountable for anything? The carnal man is an enemy of G-d. Why would G-d create something in his likeness that is his enemy?

I submit that a person's spirit must voluntarily "give into" unclean spirits influencing that person for them to become the enemy of G-d. I do not think a brain just does that without someone's awareness and compliance - if it is not so then G-d is not just.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I will begin with a few questions:

first: Is it possible to remember things concerning Christ without the Holy Ghost? (See John 14:26)

Second: According to that scripture is is possible to learn something of Christ without the assistance of the Holy Ghost?

Brigham Young said something like - There is no pain that we can experience that is not caused by a evil spirit.

Can evil spirits influence righteous individuals? Lets ask this another way. Can a righteous individual be tempted? (see Luke chapter 4)

What will happen to the earth when Satan is bound for 1,000 years?

Is it possible for a person to sin without the assistance of Satan or his angles? -- if so then by what means would we know if Satan has entered into someone's heart or not?

Why did Jesus testify in every case when an individual suffered "mental" problems that a evil spirit was involved and needed to be "cast out"? -- if you know of and exception, I would be most interested.

Can a person have a talent that is not a gift of the spirit? Can you give an example?

Part of my problem is that if we have a faulty brain - why would any person be accountable for anything? The carnal man is an enemy of G-d. Why would G-d create something in his likeness that is his enemy?

I submit that a person's spirit must voluntarily "give into" unclean spirits influencing that person for them to become the enemy of G-d. I do not think a brain just does that without someone's awareness and compliance - if it is not so then G-d is not just.

The Traveler

God did not create carnal man. The Fall did. God created Adam and Eve in His likeness.

We come into this corruption needing a Savior. The great plan was to need a Savior. If the Savior was needed for our spiritual self, why didn't we need a Savior to repent to before this life began? We don't know of such repentance. Repentance is necessary in a world where there needs to be redemption, a return to a previous state. The infant that dies on hour number one still needs a Savior from the effects of the Fall even though that child is not accountable. How could that child need salvation without being accountable? It is because that is what entails the choice of keeping our First estate and moving onto the second estate. We agreed to be exposed to corruption. To have to constantly fight against corruption of which if we let down our guard it drags us down. This is why a third of the host of heaven didnt want to do it and Satan still tries to convince people it was a bad idea.

What about the talent of killing someone in the dark? Or the talent of deception and lies?

God takes all those factors into account that we cannot determine. This is why we cant judge. I cannot tell when a person says something to me whether that is the corruption of the fallen brain or that is their spiritual intent. This is why we are told to forgive 7 times 70. How are we supposed to know?

I don't think the person who has Tourette's who blurts out obscenities when not wanting to will be judged for that in a negative way. The way I make sense of that is to understand that the body (the brain - specifically the caudate nucleus which is part of the basal ganglia) is capable of generating that action on it's own. If it is not coming from an evil spirit and the person with Tourette's is not giving into an evil spirit when they blurt out an obscenity, where do you think that action comes from?

[Traveler]

God did not create carnal man. The Fall did. God created Adam and Eve in His likeness.

.....

Do you have a reference?

What about the talent of killing someone in the dark? Or the talent of deception and lies?

Like Nephi Killing Laban? As to deception and lies what is an actor or a magician?

you missed my point - All good things (talents) come from G-d and following his spirit - all evil come from following Satan. These are call opposits - which, like light and dark - the inclusion of one is the exclusion of the other. It is why we are given agency. you may want to look up that term.

I don't think the person who has Tourette's who blurts out obscenities when not wanting to will be judged for that in a negative way. The way I make sense of that is to understand that the body (the brain - specifically the caudate nucleus which is part of the basal ganglia) is capable of generating that action on it's own. If it is not coming from an evil spirit and the person with Tourette's is not giving into an evil spirit when they blurt out an obscenity, where do you think that action comes from?

The interface failed - the person attempted to speak and the mechanism failed. Is it possible that the failure was caused by a unclean spirit? When Jesus healed someone that said unspeakable things - he cast out unclean spirits. Would you like a reference?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Do you have a reference?

Like Nephi Killing Laban? As to deception and lies what is an actor or a magician?

you missed my point - All good things (talents) come from G-d and following his spirit - all evil come from following Satan. These are call opposits - which, like light and dark - the inclusion of one is the exclusion of the other. It is why we are given agency. you may want to look up that term.

The interface failed - the person attempted to speak and the mechanism failed. Is it possible that the failure was caused by a unclean spirit? When Jesus healed someone that said unspeakable things - he cast out unclean spirits. Would you like a reference?

The Traveler

Like I said before, "unclean spirits" could easily fit as a description of a multitude of medical disorders. Is Jesus or anyone of his day going to say that He removed borrelia bergdorfei from the persons brain or removed the taenia solium from the person's brain and put it back into the host animal the pig, or removed the treponema, or the prion protein or even the specific autoimmune protein that is causing autoimmune disease. The words used would be one's understandable to that community and for general discussion in the future. The Bible is not a medical text and so doesn't have to explain the method of healing. Why couldn't it be that if Jesus were to "cast out the evil spirit in someone saying unspeakable things" whose underlying problem was Tourrette's could have done so by repairing the wiring of the brain in the caudate nucleus. You can't say that wasn't His method. We don't know.

One thing that you have not done, (or I missed it if you have) is account for what it means to be a dual being explained by the prophet and seer David O. McKay. To me the word "being" is not platform. So what is meant by our "physical being" distinct from our "spiritual being" as we currently exist as both now?

(the change of the body from the paradisical creation to the fallen state is well documented in many manuals and writings from the church, this is common knowledge) It says in Gospel Principles for example; "Their physical condition changed as a result of their eating the forbidden fruit. As God had promised, they became mortal. They and their children would experience sickness, pain, and physical death."

It says pretty specifically there that "Their physical condition changed ..." Not just the world around them, "Their". There are many other writings on this, again this is common LDS knowledge. And knowing this helps us understand the role of Christ as Christ, in part, came to reverse the effects of the Fall. As sickness is one of the things brought on by such a change, again stated in Gospel Principles, then removing sickness from the physical change is part of His task. Of course, that would be accomplished via resurrection but His example and doings well on Earth teach us of this process and ability so that we might have faith as to that possibility, to be made whole again, like the original creation of Adam and Eve.

So please explain what you think it means to be both a physical being and a spiritual being at the same time or in other words a dual being? Which is not to say a single being with two sides but two beings, one physical and one spiritual.

[Traveler]

Like I said before, "unclean spirits" could easily fit as a description of a multitude of medical disorders. Is Jesus or anyone of his day going to say that He removed borrelia bergdorfei from the persons brain or removed the taenia solium from the person's brain and put it back into the host animal the pig, or removed the treponema, or the prion protein or even the specific autoimmune protein that is causing autoimmune disease. The words used would be one's understandable to that community and for general discussion in the future. The Bible is not a medical text and so doesn't have to explain the method of healing. Why couldn't it be that if Jesus were to "cast out the evil spirit in someone saying unspeakable things" whose underlying problem was Tourrette's could have done so by repairing the wiring of the brain in the caudate nucleus. You can't say that wasn't His method. We don't know.

One thing that you have not done, (or I missed it if you have) is account for what it means to be a dual being explained by the prophet and seer David O. McKay. To me the word "being" is not platform. So what is meant by our "physical being" distinct from our "spiritual being" as we currently exist as both now?

(the change of the body from the paradisical creation to the fallen state is well documented in many manuals and writings from the church, this is common knowledge) It says in Gospel Principles for example; "Their physical condition changed as a result of their eating the forbidden fruit. As God had promised, they became mortal. They and their children would experience sickness, pain, and physical death."

It says pretty specifically there that "Their physical condition changed ..." Not just the world around them, "Their". There are many other writings on this, again this is common LDS knowledge. And knowing this helps us understand the role of Christ as Christ, in part, came to reverse the effects of the Fall. As sickness is one of the things brought on by such a change, again stated in Gospel Principles, then removing sickness from the physical change is part of His task. Of course, that would be accomplished via resurrection but His example and doings well on Earth teach us of this process and ability so that we might have faith as to that possibility, to be made whole again, like the original creation of Adam and Eve.

So please explain what you think it means to be both a physical being and a spiritual being at the same time or in other words a dual being? Which is not to say a single being with two sides but two beings, one physical and one spiritual.

Let me take you back to Eden before the fall. We learn that when G-d created Adam he cause a deep sleep to come over Adam which resulted in Adam being like a small child – having forgotten all. What I am presenting is intended to be symbolic of the state of Adam and Eve before the fall. The physical nature of Adam had nothing to forget – this blind and venerable state was a critical change in the state of the spirit of the man Adam as well as the woman Eve. This handicap of their spirit coupled with Lucifer being allowed to tempt and try Adam and Eve in this spiritual state allowed them to be beguiled (or if you will tricked) into partaking of the forbidden fruit in order to become like G-d, knowing good from evil.

Thus the state of forgetfulness and becoming as a spiritual child is not a characteristic of the fall but part of our spiritual make up coming into this time of probation. Our dual nature is because we have input from that which is physical and that which is spiritual – to our spirit that is in a state where all previous spiritual memories, conditions, abilities and accomplishments have been forgotten. Thus our spirit is starting anew both with that which is physical and that which is spiritual. This part of our nature has nothing to do with the fall except that because of the fall we became subject to mortal pain and suffering. All of the physical senses were present before the fall.

I agree that there was a physical change because of the fall – but I would submit that there was even a greater change to our individual spirit; because we were excommunicated (cut off) from the presents of G-d and the glory – including rights and privileges of being a citizen of his kingdom – which is a most profound spiritual change – even more so than the physical.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Let me take you back to Eden before the fall. We learn that when G-d created Adam he cause a deep sleep to come over Adam which resulted in Adam being like a small child – having forgotten all. What I am presenting is intended to be symbolic of the state of Adam and Eve before the fall. The physical nature of Adam had nothing to forget – this blind and venerable state was a critical change in the state of the spirit of the man Adam as well as the woman Eve. This handicap of their spirit coupled with Lucifer being allowed to tempt and try Adam and Eve in this spiritual state allowed them to be beguiled (or if you will tricked) into partaking of the forbidden fruit in order to become like G-d, knowing good from evil.

Thus the state of forgetfulness and becoming as a spiritual child is not a characteristic of the fall but part of our spiritual make up coming into this time of probation. Our dual nature is because we have input from that which is physical and that which is spiritual – to our spirit that is in a state where all previous spiritual memories, conditions, abilities and accomplishments have been forgotten. Thus our spirit is starting anew both with that which is physical and that which is spiritual. This part of our nature has nothing to do with the fall except that because of the fall we became subject to mortal pain and suffering. All of the physical senses were present before the fall.

I agree that there was a physical change because of the fall – but I would submit that there was even a greater change to our individual spirit; because we were excommunicated (cut off) from the presents of G-d and the glory – including rights and privileges of being a citizen of his kingdom – which is a most profound spiritual change – even more so than the physical.

The Traveler

First of all, wow! I am surprised to see you finally admit that there is input from the physical. Maybe we can take it one step further and ask what is the source of that input and how does it originate? ... could it possibly be the physical brain which is what I have been saying all along? Or are you going to back off and say that the "physical input" really is also spiritual as it originates from evil spirits. If that is your stand then that input is not really from the physical, it may be modified by the physical but the source is not physical.

I really don't comprehend the desire to discount the value of the physical so much. If the Fall could all be orchestrated on a spiritual level then why do we need a body? Why did God have to create a body as part of the second estate test. Why not dumb down the spirit, as you are suggesting without the use of a body?

I don't blame you for taking such a stand because I realize our religion that despite being one of only a few religions that claim that God has a body does not express any meaty (excuse the pun) explanation for the purpose of the body. We hear things like, we need a body to be like God and to have a fullness of joy. But that does not explain one detail of what the body brings to the equation of spirit + body = soul. If the spirit and the body together make the soul of man then the spirit alone does not make the soul unless one thinks the value of the body is zero. When talking about the inputs of our character and Gods character, people who believe that within the equation of spirit + body = soul is the same thing as saying the spirit = soul automatically have to discount the value of the body in this process. If there is any chance to get you to believe, in your mathematical mind that spirit < soul, then I would ask you, again, what from the body contributes to the soul of man? And for that matter what from God's body contributes to the soul and the character of God that would make Him not God if He were spirit alone?

If we can understand a little more of the reason why the spirit needs a body to be full and be of full soul and character then we can understand better our current situation which is to work out our character, a dual being character with inputs from both the physical and the spiritual self. There is a physical self and there is a spiritual self. It is not a spiritual self under a physical vexation or a physical bondage.

Part 2;

You said; "The physical nature of Adam had nothing to forget – this blind and venerable state was a critical change in the state of the spirit of the man Adam as well as the woman Eve. This handicap of their spirit coupled with Lucifer being allowed to tempt and try Adam and Eve in this spiritual state allowed them to be beguiled (or if you will tricked) into partaking of the forbidden fruit in order to become like G-d, knowing good from evil."

When you say "handicap of their spirit" do you mean the spirit was handicapped, meaning it could be handicapped by the body - for example, or do you mean that their spirit was different than the spirit they had in the pre-mortal world?

I am not sure how you can claim the spirit changed when at that point man Adam was a dual being, both spirit and body. How are you able to separate what happened to the spirit versus the input from the body? I think that is leap into a hypothesis that I have never heard stated or taught. If such a thing is possible to change the character of a spirit without the use of dual being status attached to a body, then why go to the trouble of doing the second estate in a physical realm? Why not just do it in a spiritual realm? And then those that are not tempted or deceived can receive a specific body that way, after the second estate test is done. I will tell you why it can't be done that way, because the body is essential to the test. The body creates the test. It creates the opportunity to have good and evil placed before us. I have a hard time discounting the significance of needing a body to face the second estate test as strongly as you do. The paradisacal body, although it was immortal was still created out of the dust and was not a perfected celestial, glorified body and as such (we do not know) could certainly pose some limits on a spirit being such as Adam. But Adam's spirit was still in the presence of God while in Eden.

2 Nephi 2: " 22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy."

I don't see a "handicap of their spirit"in this statement from 2 Nephi. It clearly states they would have remained in a state of innocence. That is like saying a student should close their text books and erase the chalkboard during the lecture when the test is not being given. The test (mortal probation test) did not start until after the fall. Before the Fall, there was a choice by Adam and Eve whether the test should commence or not yet but the "temptation" in the Garden was not a test. If we want to call that as a test, then that took place as part of the first estate test in which we all agreed we would want to have a mortal probation. Adam and Eve carried out what they already agreed to do. There would be no purpose in changing the spirit of Adam to proceed with something He already wanted to do or to somehow see if he wanted to change his mind after already passing that part of the test. After being accepted into the 'second estate' course, he doesn't have to reapply he just has to go through with the thing his spirit desires to do.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

[Traveler]

First of all, wow! I am surprised to see you finally admit that there is input from the physical. Maybe we can take it one step further and ask what is the source of that input and how does it originate? ... could it possibly be the physical brain which is what I have been saying all along? Or are you going to back off and say that the "physical input" really is also spiritual as it originates from evil spirits. If that is your stand then that input is not really from the physical, it may be modified by the physical but the source is not physical.

....

I don't see a "handicap of their spirit"in this statement from 2 Nephi. It clearly states they would have remained in a state of innocence. That is like saying a student should close their text books and erase the chalkboard during the lecture when the test is not being given. The test (mortal probation test) did not start until after the fall. Before the Fall, there was a choice by Adam and Eve whether the test should commence or not yet but the "temptation" in the Garden was not a test. If we want to call that as a test, then that took place as part of the first estate test in which we all agreed we would want to have a mortal probation. Adam and Eve carried out what they already agreed to do. There would be no purpose in changing the spirit of Adam to proceed with something He already wanted to do or to somehow see if he wanted to change his mind after already passing that part of the test. After being accepted into the 'second estate' course, he doesn't have to reapply he just has to go through with the thing his spirit desires to do.

Here is how and what I think is happening.

The physical brain takes in all of our physical experiences and creates a logical map that is used by our spirit to reference the physical environment. Thus the brain is similar to a computer and our spirit similar to a computer operator. A computer is a physical device that requires programming in order to provide anything meaningful or an operator being able to use it. Thus I see the human brain as both the physical blob that would be comparable to a most complex – quantum or fuzzy logic computer complete with software or advanced programming. This goes a little beyond the standard model of wiring or possible synapses taking place in the brain – or that the brain is the “intelligence” that is operative.

A computer may be programmed to perform certain functions that can and will take place without input or monitoring by the operator in the same way our nervous system can maintain various body “maintenance” functions without requiring our spirit’s direct input.

Besides being able to give our spirit a window into the physical universe – I believe that the brain is also able to receive spiritual input. Perhaps like an e-mail or IM the operator (our spirit) can receive suggestive messages. I am not sure you grasp this concept of spiritual input but for the most part this comes to us in the form of “thoughts” – that the operator can choose to investigate and in some cases become reliant on or addicted to.

In my model our spirit has nothing but the terminal with which to control the robot or body. This model works well for me because I work in the industry of automation, robotics and artificial intelligence and I see many similarities that apply and fit rather nicely. In addition – our spirit has no memory but that which is provided through experience with the computer – having forgotten everything. Thus a very intelligent operator can be severally limited if the computer has flaws or if the software has bugs or both.

But you and me – the essence of each of us is our spirit. What reaches our cognizance is what reaches our spirit. What we see, hear, feel, smell and so on is what our spirit sees, hears, feels, smells and so on. Therefore when our physical body is asleep – the computer is quiescent and our spirit operator is not cognizant. Our dreams are dreams flashed before our spirit – that comes to resolution or our dreams concerning their validity is what our spirit determines – which could be rather difficult if the computer or software was faulty which explains a brilliant spirit being handicapped.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Here is how and what I think is happening.

The physical brain takes in all of our physical experiences and creates a logical map that is used by our spirit to reference the physical environment. Thus the brain is similar to a computer and our spirit similar to a computer operator. A computer is a physical device that requires programming in order to provide anything meaningful or an operator being able to use it. Thus I see the human brain as both the physical blob that would be comparable to a most complex – quantum or fuzzy logic computer complete with software or advanced programming. This goes a little beyond the standard model of wiring or possible synapses taking place in the brain – or that the brain is the “intelligence” that is operative.

A computer may be programmed to perform certain functions that can and will take place without input or monitoring by the operator in the same way our nervous system can maintain various body “maintenance” functions without requiring our spirit’s direct input.

Besides being able to give our spirit a window into the physical universe – I believe that the brain is also able to receive spiritual input.

One of the remarkable aspects of the human brain that you still are not willing to take into account though is the brain's ability to make up information. The brain is not a window to the physical world alone, it is more like trying to understand the physical world by watching TV. There is some information that is real and there is other information that is fantasy, false, confabulation, imagination, etc. The brain does not just distort information, it comes up with information that is not real.

The simplest example of this is the blind spot. The area of the visual field where there is no actual information coming in, the brain makes assumptions about that are of the visual field and tells the associated visual cortex that there really is visual information coming through. Now, take that simple example and apply it to fear, anxiety, anger, lust, sexual drives, social needs, pride, self perception, pain, worry, despair etc. There is such a thing as made up despair, made up fear, made up pride, made up anger etc. that is not coming from the spirit, that the brain is able to produce all on its own. Many experiments, for example have shown that by stimulating certain cells in the amygdala there is anger.

[Traveler]

One of the remarkable aspects of the human brain that you still are not willing to take into account though is the brain's ability to make up information. The brain is not a window to the physical world alone, it is more like trying to understand the physical world by watching TV. There is some information that is real and there is other information that is fantasy, false, confabulation, imagination, etc. The brain does not just distort information, it comes up with information that is not real.

The simplest example of this is the blind spot. The area of the visual field where there is no actual information coming in, the brain makes assumptions about that are of the visual field and tells the associated visual cortex that there really is visual information coming through. Now, take that simple example and apply it to fear, anxiety, anger, lust, sexual drives, social needs, pride, self perception, pain, worry, despair etc. There is such a thing as made up despair, made up fear, made up pride, made up anger etc. that is not coming from the spirit, that the brain is able to produce all on its own. Many experiments, for example have shown that by stimulating certain cells in the amygdala there is anger.

So you are saying that anger is not controlled or has input (or override) by our spirit but is a pre-programmed uncontrollable activity of the brain? I would say if that is possible then no one should be accountable for anger and no one should waste their time trying to control anger? Or for that matter any other brain induced activity. Hmmmm - not convinced. My own experience seems to contradict this as a hard core fact. I believe that there are individuals that have learned to control anger. I suspect there are possibilities you have failed to consider.

The Traveler

[Netgood]

God can instantly transport some fishes into a basket. He is matter that instantly transports to temples.

[Seminarysnoozer]

So you are saying that anger is not controlled or has input (or override) by our spirit but is a pre-programmed uncontrollable activity of the brain? I would say if that is possible then no one should be accountable for anger and no one should waste their time trying to control anger? Or for that matter any other brain induced activity. Hmmmm - not convinced. My own experience seems to contradict this as a hard core fact. I believe that there are individuals that have learned to control anger. I suspect there are possibilities you have failed to consider.

The Traveler

This isn't an all or nothing function. It isn't one or the other, we are dual beings, we have input from both spirit and physical self. We cannot judge what comes from one or the other. This is what makes it hard for us to see all that is happening. Man sees the outside whereas God sees the inner man. This is the complexity of the final judgement. Think of the parable of the 10 talents. Do we really know who was given how many talents? I don't. The only thing the servants walked into the situation with was what they would do with the talents they were given. Then they were given the talents, they were given the stewardship. The stewardship was not theirs before they were given and they could not claim it as their own even when they had them. Likewise, how we are now, our "talents", our traits etc, living according to the flesh, is a stewardship but is not really our self. What we do with what we are given expresses who we are. Are we one to hide the talent or double it? That is an expression of our spirit nature. But the actual talent, the actual stewardship is part of the probationary status, part of living according to the flesh.

If it weren't so, one would have a hard time explaining why Phineas Gage had a personality change after a spike went through his frontal lobe. Or Oliver Sack's description of a Man who mistook his wife for a hat. Why a hat? Because the brain can make up explanations for things. It can try to reason through the situation and come up with what it thinks is a reasonable answer as if it is real. Then we are left with trying to discern what is real versus what is made up by the brain. What are the passions of the flesh versus desires of the spirit? Isn't that the test of this life?

Would you say that the University of Texas tower shooter killed his wife and mom and all those people all because he has an evil spirit? Are you willing to make that strong of a statement? Or would you say there may have been a contribution from the brain tumor that was pushing on his amygdala for which he expressed, 'not feeling myself' and he even sought help to try to understand where that was coming from and to try to control it.

Why weren't the Apostles able to control their drive to sleep while in the Garden of Gethsemane? Maybe it is because as the scripture says, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Meaning just because the spirit wants to do something, doesn't always mean it is possible, partly because in this life the flesh is more powerful in its influence than the power of the spirit, by default - the natural man is an enemy to God. If one does nothing to attempt to counteract the will of the flesh then we become the enemy to God. That is because that is the stronger influence in this life.

[Traveler]

This isn't an all or nothing function. It isn't one or the other, we are dual beings, we have input from both spirit and physical self. We cannot judge what comes from one or the other. This is what makes it hard for us to see all that is happening. Man sees the outside whereas God sees the inner man. This is the complexity of the final judgement. Think of the parable of the 10 talents. Do we really know who was given how many talents? I don't. The only thing the servants walked into the situation with was what they would do with the talents they were given. Then they were given the talents, they were given the stewardship. The stewardship was not theirs before they were given and they could not claim it as their own even when they had them. Likewise, how we are now, our "talents", our traits etc, living according to the flesh, is a stewardship but is not really our self. What we do with what we are given expresses who we are. Are we one to hide the talent or double it? That is an expression of our spirit nature. But the actual talent, the actual stewardship is part of the probationary status, part of living according to the flesh.

If it weren't so, one would have a hard time explaining why Phineas Gage had a personality change after a spike went through his frontal lobe. Or Oliver Sack's description of a Man who mistook his wife for a hat. Why a hat? Because the brain can make up explanations for things. It can try to reason through the situation and come up with what it thinks is a reasonable answer as if it is real. Then we are left with trying to discern what is real versus what is made up by the brain. What are the passions of the flesh versus desires of the spirit? Isn't that the test of this life?

Would you say that the University of Texas tower shooter killed his wife and mom and all those people all because he has an evil spirit? Are you willing to make that strong of a statement? Or would you say there may have been a contribution from the brain tumor that was pushing on his amygdala for which he expressed, 'not feeling myself' and he even sought help to try to understand where that was coming from and to try to control it.

Why weren't the Apostles able to control their drive to sleep while in the Garden of Gethsemane? Maybe it is because as the scripture says, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Meaning just because the spirit wants to do something, doesn't always mean it is possible, partly because in this life the flesh is more powerful in its influence than the power of the spirit, by default - the natural man is an enemy to God. If one does nothing to attempt to counteract the will of the flesh then we become the enemy to God. That is because that is the stronger influence in this life.

I still think you are making assumptions that are not correct and that cannot be proven. I was talking this week with a prosecutor that deals with domestic violence. He informed me that in order to prove that a person is guilty of violence there is two critical steps:

First they must prove violence (explosive anger or other responses that causes harm to another) in the domestic family setting.

Second they must prove that the same person is capable of restraining violence (ability to control explosive anger that causes harm to another) in other settings – usually this is established in the work place. This is to prevent a plea of innocent by reason of insanity.

I understand and have purported that the spirit that governs our soul can be overcome by spiritual influences – I give you the scriptures as proof that this occurs. The second possibility I have suggested is a damaged or otherwise dysfunctioning brain. Insanity is possible. I have suggested that such a dysfunction brain could be caused by a physical problem or a software problem – comparable to a computer. I likened our spirit to the computer operator. I have stated that a broken brain (insanity) can and does produce behaviors for which a person is not likely responsible. However, when the brain is functioning properly it will provide for our spirit operator information that our spirit will, by the powers granted by G-d, be responsible for the deeds and actions taken.

In other words if you spirit can control your anger but does not – that you will be held accountable for that choice not to control. I also suggest that we do not have to walk around acting as though we cannot recognize when others choose to control their anger one time and not another. Not so we can condemn but to forgive. Anyone can forgive a dumb fool but it is required of a saint to forgive even those that act with deliberate choice.

But my point is – that if a person knows to do good and does not do it – to them it is a sin and an act for which they will be held accountable. I do not believe that it matters to what extent their physical self – or natural man – or brain conjures up – If they (their spirit) knows it is not good – but does it or allows it anyway – they are in grave danger – and should be warned and when necessary others protected. Yes – I believe that if someone do not know what they are doing – we still have an obligation to protect those they would harm.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I still think you are making assumptions that are not correct and that cannot be proven. I was talking this week with a prosecutor that deals with domestic violence. He informed me that in order to prove that a person is guilty of violence there is two critical steps:

First they must prove violence (explosive anger or other responses that causes harm to another) in the domestic family setting.

Second they must prove that the same person is capable of restraining violence (ability to control explosive anger that causes harm to another) in other settings – usually this is established in the work place. This is to prevent a plea of innocent by reason of insanity.

I understand and have purported that the spirit that governs our soul can be overcome by spiritual influences – I give you the scriptures as proof that this occurs. The second possibility I have suggested is a damaged or otherwise dysfunctioning brain. Insanity is possible. I have suggested that such a dysfunction brain could be caused by a physical problem or a software problem – comparable to a computer. I likened our spirit to the computer operator. I have stated that a broken brain (insanity) can and does produce behaviors for which a person is not likely responsible. However, when the brain is functioning properly it will provide for our spirit operator information that our spirit will, by the powers granted by G-d, be responsible for the deeds and actions taken.

In other words if you spirit can control your anger but does not – that you will be held accountable for that choice not to control. I also suggest that we do not have to walk around acting as though we cannot recognize when others choose to control their anger one time and not another. Not so we can condemn but to forgive. Anyone can forgive a dumb fool but it is required of a saint to forgive even those that act with deliberate choice.

But my point is – that if a person knows to do good and does not do it – to them it is a sin and an act for which they will be held accountable. I do not believe that it matters to what extent their physical self – or natural man – or brain conjures up – If they (their spirit) knows it is not good – but does it or allows it anyway – they are in grave danger – and should be warned and when necessary others protected. Yes – I believe that if someone do not know what they are doing – we still have an obligation to protect those they would harm.

The Traveler

I am not sure why you think I was talking about accountability. (I think that was the other thread)

1. Whose brain is not damaged? In other words, who doesn't have a brain that is less than perfect?

2. Now you are admitting that the brain can conjure up things, which was my point. So, glad to see we are on the same page as far as that goes. We are learning what is "good or bad". The difficulty is that some drives are from us, from our body. The problem is that. People say to themselves, this is who I am, this is the way God made me or this is only natural. Those beliefs have a potential to obscure the spirit self and it's promptings. The obscuration of spiritual influence can be a sin. It doesn't have to be a contextual choice like a written exam question, do you choose A, B or C. We already had that test, that was the first estate test. Our test now is to see if our resolve is strong enough to overcome natural urges and drives that are not entirely clear as to where they are coming from. The test though is based in God knowing how strong any of those urges are in any one of us, just like the story of the 10 talents.

An orphan who is neglected in a large orphanage and grows up without a lot of personal contact and love does not develop the physical brain wiring for empathy. (Reactive attachment disorder has been scientifically proven, so please don't argue that, if you really love science). Meaning, all of his/her life, from that point on, there is a thorn in the flesh for that individual to show love to others. What is the greatest commandment? Well, here this individual, by no choice of his/her own is given a direct challenge against the greatest commandment? So, who sinned in that case? Who carries the burden of the sin? The parent who may have died in childbirth and could not raise the child? Or the caretakers at the orphanage who have 100 babies to take care of? Or was it that soul that sinned and so he/she has to carry that burden into this life. I think Jesus was already asked that question about a blind child.

So, if nobody sinned in this direct opposition to God's commandment to love others, where does the opposition come from? It comes from the body. It is not an evil spirit occupying that person's body. It comes from the wiring of that person's brain. If you even a little bit believe that then my point is that you have to realize that in some small way, then, this way or that, we are all mis-wired. We all have corrupted bodies as a result of the Fall. This comes across as personalities, dispositions, as likes and dislikes, as preferences, drives, passions, reflexes, sexual drives, hunger, thirst, anger, happiness, eroticism, what gives one pleasure etc. etc.

[Traveler]

I am not sure why you think I was talking about accountability. (I think that was the other thread)

1. Whose brain is not damaged? In other words, who doesn't have a brain that is less than perfect?

2. Now you are admitting that the brain can conjure up things, which was my point. So, glad to see we are on the same page as far as that goes. We are learning what is "good or bad". The difficulty is that some drives are from us, from our body. The problem is that. People say to themselves, this is who I am, this is the way God made me or this is only natural. Those beliefs have a potential to obscure the spirit self and it's promptings. The obscuration of spiritual influence can be a sin. It doesn't have to be a contextual choice like a written exam question, do you choose A, B or C. We already had that test, that was the first estate test. Our test now is to see if our resolve is strong enough to overcome natural urges and drives that are not entirely clear as to where they are coming from. The test though is based in God knowing how strong any of those urges are in any one of us, just like the story of the 10 talents.

An orphan who is neglected in a large orphanage and grows up without a lot of personal contact and love does not develop the physical brain wiring for empathy. (Reactive attachment disorder has been scientifically proven, so please don't argue that, if you really love science). Meaning, all of his/her life, from that point on, there is a thorn in the flesh for that individual to show love to others. What is the greatest commandment? Well, here this individual, by no choice of his/her own is given a direct challenge against the greatest commandment? So, who sinned in that case? Who carries the burden of the sin? The parent who may have died in childbirth and could not raise the child? Or the caretakers at the orphanage who have 100 babies to take care of? Or was it that soul that sinned and so he/she has to carry that burden into this life. I think Jesus was already asked that question about a blind child.

So, if nobody sinned in this direct opposition to God's commandment to love others, where does the opposition come from? It comes from the body. It is not an evil spirit occupying that person's body. It comes from the wiring of that person's brain. If you even a little bit believe that then my point is that you have to realize that in some small way, then, this way or that, we are all mis-wired. We all have corrupted bodies as a result of the Fall. This comes across as personalities, dispositions, as likes and dislikes, as preferences, drives, passions, reflexes, sexual drives, hunger, thirst, anger, happiness, eroticism, what gives one pleasure etc. etc.

Interesting post - sometimes I think you and I are on the same page and other times I am not sure I get what you are talking about. I was seriously injured as a young child and suffered or acquired brain damage. But I am not completely convinced that my mis-wiring is a disadvantage. Many things that are obvious to everyone else - I do not see at all but in other cases - I notice (see, feel, smell, taste and hear) things no one else seem to pick up. Often I see patterns in text that are logically related and sometimes are in different books.

However, I do not feel that my physical brain congers so much as receives and filters things. It seems to me that I am actually connecting to something outside of me. I have difficulty remembering book, chapter and verse in scripture but if I hold my scriptures in my hand I can quickly find the scripture I am looking for.

I remember most things by searching a virtual room where I have placed things I want to remember. They exist as logical images in sort of a logical landscape. Sometimes I have to go to my virtual room and logically clean it up and through out clutter so important things are easier to find. Often though it almost seems that someone or several others are in my virtual room helping me look for stuff. But to my surprise I have only encountered one other individual that thinks like this and experiences this. I do not know why - it is so much easier to deal with things in this manner.

As I look inside myself - my brain does not seem to be operating on its own but rather responding to things or tuning into things. Perhaps my brain is making these things up - but interestingly as I investigate there always seems to be something relevant physically beyond me that is directly related.

The Traveler

Edited August 28, 2012 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Interesting post - sometimes I think you and I are on the same page and other times I am not sure I get what you are talking about. I was seriously injured as a young child and suffered or acquired brain damage. But I am not completely convinced that my mis-wiring is a disadvantage. Many things that are obvious to everyone else - I do not see at all but in other cases - I notice (see, feel, smell, taste and hear) things no one else seem to pick up. Often I see patterns in text that are logically related and sometimes are in different books.

However, I do not feel that my physical brain congers so much as receives and filters things. It seems to me that I am actually connecting to something outside of me. I have difficulty remembering book, chapter and verse in scripture but if I hold my scriptures in my hand I can quickly find the scripture I am looking for.

I remember most things by searching a virtual room where I have placed things I want to remember. They exist as logical images in sort of a logical landscape. Sometimes I have to go to my virtual room and logically clean it up and through out clutter so important things are easier to find. Often though it almost seems that someone or several others are in my virtual room helping me look for stuff. But to my surprise I have only encountered one other individual that thinks like this and experiences this. I do not know why - it is so much easier to deal with things in this manner.

As I look inside myself - my brain does not seem to be operating on its own but rather responding to things or tuning into things. Perhaps my brain is making these things up - but interestingly as I investigate there always seems to be something relevant physically beyond me that is directly related.

The Traveler

Traveler,

Thanks for sharing your personal experiences. I do appreciate your comments.

I think one of the least understood aspects of our gospel is the purpose of the body. I have brought this up many times in different threads and even threads devoted to that issue alone. The conversation tends to be very short, though, because I think we have not been told much about the need for a body. We are told that one of the purposes of this existence is to receive a body and the purpose of this life is to be tested to see if we will do the things we are told to do. The perplexing thing is that we understand that we need a body to be more like God but at the same time by receiving this body we have become fallen, further away from God.

In pondering the purpose of the body and how it might be a necessary piece of our development I have also thought of the possibility of the body serving as a "filter". I guess the problem I have with that idea is the that the spirit plus the body make the soul of man. The statement is not the spirit minus the body makes the soul of man. There is something about the body that is provided to advance the spirit into something the spirit alone could not do on its own. The image of a filter is one of taking something away or limiting from what the original has. If all the power to become like God existed in the spirit form alone then we are not pushed forward by having a body and our doctrine of receiving a body as a reward with the resurrection seems like a backward step and not forward. If we died and just stayed in spirit form, I don't think we would be much more advanced than when we left our Heavenly Parents presence. What aspect of the body adds to the soul of man? It is not just what is presented to man but what aspect of the body by itself is contributing to the soul? The soul is what is the person. The soul is not the process in which the person develops but is the person themselves. So, again, if that is the case, what aspect of the body is making up our person, our character, our soul, not just the process in which the soul is developed but becomes part of the soul itself? I think these are things to ponder.

We know that not having a body is a punishment. Joseph Smith taught: “We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the Celestial Kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The Devil has no body, and herein is his punishment”

So the body is the opposite of punishment, it is a reward, it is something added to what we had before. If it is in addition to what we had before then I don't see that as consistent with being a filter, which subtracts from what we had.

I think the other main thing that is left out by settling with an idea that the body is just a filter or a tool or a medium to experience the world in is the fact that we are told that we are dual beings. I, again, don't think you grasp the idea of being a "dual being". And this is another thing that is not very well discussed. A "dual being" cannot be a single being with a filter on. If I put on a wet suit to go surfing in the middle of winter it allows me to go do things that I couldn't do without the cover, so it offers me additional experience, opportunity and choice etc. that I couldn't have without it. But in no way would I call the wetsuit part of my being or my soul. The wet suit does not make me a "dual being". When Armstrong landed on the moon he had a special suit that allowed him to walk on the surface of the moon. It was a covering and a "filter" distorting the normal perceptions of what the surface of the moon would feel like if he could walk barefoot on it. But in no way would we say that at that moment Armstrong is a "dual being" made up of himself and the suit. He is still a being in a suit. (Of course, his being is a dual being of body and spirit but the addition of the suit is not what makes him a dual being).

Outside of the quotes I have already given with David O. Mckay and others including Hinckley's "Each of us is a dual being of spiritual entity and physical entity" there is the discussion of Paul that states that we can discern things spiritually or discern things naturally. If there is such a thing as spiritual discernment then there has to be such a thing as physical (carnal or natural man) discernment. If spiritual things are discerned spiritually then how are physical things discerned?

1 Corinthains 2:14 " 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." If the natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God and cannot know them, then what does he know and how does he know it? I would anticipate you answering that question by saying that he would know things because they are received by other spirits. If that is the case then aren't those things also "spiritually discerned"? But if it is through the body that those other things are discerned and known then it is possibly for the body to "discern" and to "know" without the spirit. I think Paul understood what it really means to be a dual being, to have two entities like Hinckley and Mckay have stated, to have two discernments and to have two sets of knowledge as Paul is implying.

Understanding neuroanatomy, why would there need to be a part of the brain that is devoted to assigning the emotional significance to events if that is the job of the spirit alone? Why would there be a physical equivalent to what the spirit is supposed to do if it just sits there and does nothing but lets the spirit do the qualifying of information. When that ability is physically destroyed like the Kluver-Bucy patient who becomes hypersexual and uninhibited via destruction of the temporal lobes and parts of the frontal lobe then why would not the spirit still be able to direct action and inhibit?

One last thing; you stated "As I look inside myself - my brain does not seem to be operating on its own but rather responding to things or tuning into things. Perhaps my brain is making these things up - but interestingly as I investigate there always seems to be something relevant physically beyond me that is directly related." As I have explained before, one's own awareness of what the brain is doing is very limited. It is worse than you looking at the computer screen and thinking that you are seeing everything the computer is doing right now.

A human being cannot feel or detect or comprehend everything the brain is doing at a conscious level. There are many things that happen at a subconscious level, at a molecular level and at a chemical/physiologic level that are not made conscious. Do you know how much acetylcholine you have being used in your brain right now, how about how many dopamanergic pathways are being used at this moment out of your nucleus accumbens? Even if somehow you did know that or feel that, could you, just by thought, shut down those dopamanergic pathways to shut off the drive to eat or drink? Or selectively shut off the ones that are causing depressed mood or sexual addictions? The only person we know that had such a power demonstrated by removing the "evil spirit" was Christ. We do not have that kind of control, yet. The mind, so-to-speak, has a mind of its own. We can try to redirect it spiritually, but like riding a bucking bronco our spiritual control over the body is not as good as most people think it is.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer

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