Why use our agency?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good evening Seminarysnoozer! I hope you have had a good week. :)

Can you ask your question in a different way, please, and if you can, will you? As it stands, your question does not appear to be asking me about something that I was saying in my post.

Regards,

Finrock

You said, "skipping the experience would short circuit God's plan". Granted you were probably talking about as a whole not having a mortal probation as part of the plan, so maybe that is where you don't see it pertaining to your post. I was asking about an individual who seemingly skips over the "experience" (the mortal probation experience) part of the plan by not having much of a life here.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Interesting - if the physical is very limited or handicapped should not the spirit dominate? And is it not the spirit that gives life according to scripture? Why then; when the spirit dominates an individual is their life shortened? Assuming that there are two competing parts to each individual?

The Traveler

If a spirit dominated a rock and the material remained a rock what could it do?

[Traveler]

If a spirit dominated a rock and the material remained a rock what could it do?

What ever it is commanded to do.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

What ever it is commanded to do.

The Traveler

So if it is commanded to write an interesting fiction novel it could do that?

If you really meant "What ever" as you wrote it would include things that are outside its sphere of capability. I think it has to be only within the sphere of the purpose for which the thing, whatever it is, was created for. If a body was created for a specific purpose then it would have specific capabilities and traits. An alligator is not capable of flying on its own power for example, that is not within its sphere of the purpose of its creation here. If a child is born without a brain then it is not within its sphere to do the things the brain does, which is to reason and to experience.

[Traveler]

So if it is commanded to write an interesting fiction novel it could do that?

If you really meant "What ever" as you wrote it would include things that are outside its sphere of capability. I think it has to be only within the sphere of the purpose for which the thing, whatever it is, was created for. If a body was created for a specific purpose then it would have specific capabilities and traits. An alligator is not capable of flying on its own power for example, that is not within its sphere of the purpose of its creation here. If a child is born without a brain then it is not within its sphere to do the things the brain does, which is to reason and to experience.

Some scripture you may fine interesting:

1 Nephi 17:50

50 And I said unto them: If God had commanded me to do all things I could do them. If he should command me that I should say unto this water, be thou earth, it should be earth; and if I should say it, it would be done.

JST, Romans 7:15

15 But now I am spiritual; for that which I am commanded to do , I do; and that which I am commanded not to allow, I allow not.

This second you might find ineresting - as to what happens with the spiritual is in complete control?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Some scripture you may fine interesting:

This second you might find ineresting - as to what happens with the spiritual is in complete control?

The Traveler

Thanks for your response.

Yes God and His power can manipulate the Earth. He and His power can raise the bottom of the sea and make it rise above the water and 'turn it into' Earth.

The only state in which I am aware that the spirit would be in "complete control" is one of a perfected glorified being. And one in which the corruptions of this world have been controlled. A spirit cannot ask material to do something it is not capable of. If somehow God were to change the nature of the thing and turn it into something that is capable of such action then that would be a different story. Even individuals who are a witness to God have to be transfigured. If what you are saying is true then there is no need for transfiguration, it would just happen. Our bodies, for example, in their current state are not capable of seeing God. Can a dog beget a cat?

As far as James 7:15, look at verse 4 and the beginning of the chapter, he is talking about after being raised from the dead. That is with a different body then, a non-corrupted body that that is possible. That isn't with this body. Even though we are preparing for that future state with ordinances and principles that we will apply to that future state, such as eternal marriage.

[Traveler]

Thanks for your response.

Yes God and His power can manipulate the Earth. He and His power can raise the bottom of the sea and make it rise above the water and 'turn it into' Earth.

The only state in which I am aware that the spirit would be in "complete control" is one of a perfected glorified being. And one in which the corruptions of this world have been controlled. A spirit cannot ask material to do something it is not capable of. If somehow God were to change the nature of the thing and turn it into something that is capable of such action then that would be a different story. Even individuals who are a witness to God have to be transfigured. If what you are saying is true then there is no need for transfiguration, it would just happen. Our bodies, for example, in their current state are not capable of seeing God. Can a dog beget a cat?

As far as James 7:15, look at verse 4 and the beginning of the chapter, he is talking about after being raised from the dead. That is with a different body then, a non-corrupted body that that is possible. That isn't with this body. Even though we are preparing for that future state with ordinances and principles that we will apply to that future state, such as eternal marriage.

As you may recall you asked in post #27 what is possible when that which is spiritual dominates that which is physical - I think you asked specifically concerning a rock.

In an effort to answer your questions I gave examples from scripture. What I am trying to show is that when the spirit and physical are not balanced - we do not have the kind of results we would suspect of a dual nature competing for control.

I have tried to understand you meaning of dual nature competing in an individual and it appears that regardless of the balance ratio - the human is limited only by physical limitations - not a dual ratio. Now you seem to be arguing the same point - that the spiritual qualities do not weigh as much as physical qualities - or should I say physical deficiencies. If that is the case then it means the human quality is not really dual challenge but physical as per default.

This would seem to imply that the spirit has “forgotten” it dominance over that which is physical during our mortal probation - which would only happen moving forward as you say in the resurrection or as I think the scripture implies - with the divine assistance of G-d.

The point of interest that I believe still remains is the connection between that which is spirit and that which is physical which allows that which is spiritual to control that which is physical.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

As you may recall you asked in post #27 what is possible when that which is spiritual dominates that which is physical - I think you asked specifically concerning a rock.

In an effort to answer your questions I gave examples from scripture. What I am trying to show is that when the spirit and physical are not balanced - we do not have the kind of results we would suspect of a dual nature competing for control.

I have tried to understand you meaning of dual nature competing in an individual and it appears that regardless of the balance ratio - the human is limited only by physical limitations - not a dual ratio. Now you seem to be arguing the same point - that the spiritual qualities do not weigh as much as physical qualities - or should I say physical deficiencies. If that is the case then it means the human quality is not really dual challenge but physical as per default.

This would seem to imply that the spirit has “forgotten” it dominance over that which is physical during our mortal probation - which would only happen moving forward as you say in the resurrection or as I think the scripture implies - with the divine assistance of G-d.

The point of interest that I believe still remains is the connection between that which is spirit and that which is physical which allows that which is spiritual to control that which is physical.

The Traveler

I am not sure what you mean by balance. But, I think the rest of what you say here is consistent with what I believe.

The natural man is an enemy to God, which some may interpret that the default nature (what comes naturally - physical nature) of man is an enemy to God. It also has the meaning of when nothing is done, the natural force is the one that presides. It takes a lot of effort in our current condition to learn to have spiritual control. The spiritual influence is subtle, quiet and over time is obscured, darkened or even lost as in those who cannot understand the spirit at all through their wickedness. If I stopped praying, fasting, going to church and obeying the commandments to the best of my ability, my spirit would have less and less control over my actions over time. Yes, that is what I believe. Do you believe something else?

[Traveler]

I am not sure what you mean by balance. But, I think the rest of what you say here is consistent with what I believe.

The natural man is an enemy to God, which some may interpret that the default nature (what comes naturally - physical nature) of man is an enemy to God. It also has the meaning of when nothing is done, the natural force is the one that presides. It takes a lot of effort in our current condition to learn to have spiritual control. The spiritual influence is subtle, quiet and over time is obscured, darkened or even lost as in those who cannot understand the spirit at all through their wickedness. If I stopped praying, fasting, going to church and obeying the commandments to the best of my ability, my spirit would have less and less control over my actions over time. Yes, that is what I believe. Do you believe something else?

I believe the influence of the Holy Spirit is subtle. I believe our spirit like our physical body will become weaker when not exercised - which means in essence - not given access to the Holy Spirit. There are things that will make us physically stronger and there are habits that will weaken our physical shape and things that improve or weaken our spiritual wellbeing. The things you mentioned (prayer, fasting) can help strengthen our spirits when used properly. Eating healthy and exercising does not make someone an enemy of G-d - you seem to infer that. In fact spiritual strength often is associated with good physical health (like the word of wisdom).

I believe the body is the temple of the spirit of G-d and thus the physical and the spiritual can be as one. I do not think that anything physically healthy is contrary to the laws of G-d. I think you make some very good points - but I am not sure your view that anything physical is the enemy of G-d is a point I agree with. Likewise I do not think our purpose is to be spiritual only - ignoring the physical necessities is, according to my understanding, is not a smart over all spiritually enhancing idea.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe the influence of the Holy Spirit is subtle. I believe our spirit like our physical body will become weaker when not exercised - which means in essence - not given access to the Holy Spirit. There are things that will make us physically stronger and there are habits that will weaken our physical shape and things that improve or weaken our spiritual wellbeing. The things you mentioned (prayer, fasting) can help strengthen our spirits when used properly. Eating healthy and exercising does not make someone an enemy of G-d - you seem to infer that. In fact spiritual strength often is associated with good physical health (like the word of wisdom).

I believe the body is the temple of the spirit of G-d and thus the physical and the spiritual can be as one. I do not think that anything physically healthy is contrary to the laws of G-d. I think you make some very good points - but I am not sure your view that anything physical is the enemy of G-d is a point I agree with. Likewise I do not think our purpose is to be spiritual only - ignoring the physical necessities is, according to my understanding, is not a smart over all spiritually enhancing idea.

The Traveler

I didn't mean to imply that if I did. I think I view the whole dual being thing as two separate influences but they can affect each other over time. As what a man thinketh so is he. The issue, at least the way I see it is not if one is stronger than the other as a battle between the other but as an opposing option, as in a choice between things that are carnal versus things that are spiritual. We can still choose carnal pursuits but the way we make them spiritual is by doing them with an eye single to the glory of God. That is the way to make the carnal influences sanctified. This is how I view things like the word of wisdom. If someone kept the word of wisdom principles for alternative reasons, maybe they wanted to look good for the club scene to attract men or something of that sort then the unintended obedience to the physical guides dose nothing to spiritual growth. It still has to be done with spiritually guided motives. The dual natures represent to polar reasons for our actions. Even though they are polar they can put together in any combination of motivations during a single act, maybe 43% carnal reasons and 57% spiritual, etc. God will judge the desire of our heart along with other factors, which is to say do we choose the spiritual motives over the carnal ones and to what degree.

[Traveler]

I didn't mean to imply that if I did. I think I view the whole dual being thing as two separate influences but they can affect each other over time. As what a man thinketh so is he. The issue, at least the way I see it is not if one is stronger than the other as a battle between the other but as an opposing option, as in a choice between things that are carnal versus things that are spiritual. We can still choose carnal pursuits but the way we make them spiritual is by doing them with an eye single to the glory of God. That is the way to make the carnal influences sanctified. This is how I view things like the word of wisdom. If someone kept the word of wisdom principles for alternative reasons, maybe they wanted to look good for the club scene to attract men or something of that sort then the unintended obedience to the physical guides dose nothing to spiritual growth. It still has to be done with spiritually guided motives. The dual natures represent to polar reasons for our actions. Even though they are polar they can put together in any combination of motivations during a single act, maybe 43% carnal reasons and 57% spiritual, etc. God will judge the desire of our heart along with other factors, which is to say do we choose the spiritual motives over the carnal ones and to what degree.

It seems to me you are over thinking - not that I disagree with you thinking just that you seem to go too far with it. To me being of the spirit has nothing to do with our individual spirit or for that matter any thing that is unique to us as individuals - What it means is being connected to the Holy Ghost - which is the divine spirit and the only means of overcoming all other influences associated with our mortal existance.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

It seems to me you are over thinking - not that I disagree with you thinking just that you seem to go too far with it. To me being of the spirit has nothing to do with our individual spirit or for that matter any thing that is unique to us as individuals - What it means is being connected to the Holy Ghost - which is the divine spirit and the only means of overcoming all other influences associated with our mortal existance.

The Traveler

I agree. I think the two concepts of the spirit are almost interchangeable because the Holy Ghost speaks to our spirit. So whether we are talking about our own individual input or the influences of the spirit of the Lord, they flow through the same channels.

The other reason I see them as almost interchangeable is because we know that everyone that is here in this life was faithful to the gospel of Jesus Christ and faithful to the our Heavenly Father's teachings. The level of faithfulness varied to make some of them have exceedingly great faith but still they were all faithful enough to follow and to obey which is way more than a lot of them are doing currently. So, if that is there nature to obey and to be faithful, whenever that is revealed by any measure of faithfulness, I think that is an expression of what influences they are listening to, the spirit self (which is faith promoting, righteous promoting, spiritually minded) or the carnal ones (which can provide carnal influences, carnally minded). The other way we say this is to know that we are all born with the "light of Christ". That is the faint influence of the spirit self that agreed with Christ and Father's plan. But we know the light of Christ can be extinguished. The way it is extinguished is by being more carnally minded and therefore less spiritually minded, the right eye is obscured or darkened.

Elder Christofferson; "The word of God, as Alma said, is like a seed planted in our hearts that produces faith as it begins to grow within us (see Alma 32:27–43; see also Romans 10:13–17). Faith will not come from the study of ancient texts as a purely academic pursuit. It will not come from archaeological digs and discoveries. Faith comes by the witness of the Holy Spirit to our souls, Spirit to spirit, as we hear or read the word of God. And faith matures as we continue to feast upon the word."

I like how he had the one "Spirit" capitalized, maybe that is what we need to do to distinguish the two.

When the mind of the physical body (the brain) has been given control then it cannot feel the influence of the Spirit or the spirit. Nephi explains this; " 45 Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder."

I like how my good friend Valerie Holladay put it in an article published in the Ensign entitled "A walk in the Wilderness"; "For most of us, we enter our “wilderness” alone in prayer. It is there that we communicate with our Maker—spirit to spirit—and come to know him as he is and, consequently, to know ourselves as we really are."

In other words, to be in tune to the spirit is the method in which we understand who we really are, it is the same method of listening to the Spirit (with a capital S). The spirit self is revealed through righteous living and listening to its subtle influences. If not the loud carnal drives take over and make it that much harder to be directed by our spirit self.