Thoughts re Abraham 3:22, 23

[searching_questioner]

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

The implication of the use of the word “many” instead of "all" suggests that there were at least some of the noble and great ones who were not shown unto Abraham, and amongst whom God did not stand. I wonder who and where these other noble and great ones were, and if any useful conclusions or possibilities can be drawn by speculating on this question. It is also interesting to note that the souls amongst whom God stood were both noble and great, and (vs 23) good, but those whom He chose not to stand with are only described as great and noble.

[Convert55]

Since you used the “S” word (speculate) I have no answers, but I can only speak how my own understanding of these verses has changed over time and that may not feed into the questions that you have raised.

Upon my first reading of verse 22 years ago, being self centered as I am, I wondered if I were among the group that God showed Abraham. Then in verse 23 I read “These I will make my rulers” and at that I felt I was not included.

Later on as I had the opportunity to have the temple experience I began to realize that the group could have been bigger than I first thought and I could have been included. But now, you have so precisely shown that there was a select group out of the noble and great ones who were good and I once again find myself excluded and I am all depressed again. No… just kidding.

If there is anyone suffering self doubt about themselves or about their possible performance in the pre-existence let me say – it doesn’t matter. When you made it here to earth the slate was wiped clean. If you live the principles of the gospel and keep your covenants you are now noble and great in the eyes of your Heavenly Father and in due time you will receive all that the Father hath. As to yourself, don’t look back, just look forward and be happy with the possibilities that are yours.

As to the question “I wonder who and where these other noble and great ones were” It seems to me that there just isn’t enough data to come up with a satisfactory answer.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Convert55

[searching_questioner]

As to the question “I wonder who and where these other noble and great ones were” It seems to me that there just isn’t enough data to come up with a satisfactory answer.

Given the current, rather limited state of our knowledge, there are some questions for which, at this time, it may only be possible to come up with a range of possible answers, rather than a single definitive truth. Inadequate and unsatisfying though such an outcome may be, this would be still be better than simply ignoring the question and not trying to come up with any answer. The likelihood, or possibility that one of these possible answers may be correct can be gauged by seeing if, or how well, that answer fits with our existing knowledge. As long as we accept that our tentative answers are only tentative, and we are prepared to discard them when additional knowledge is obtained, then there is no harm in this.

Applying this approach to the question of where did the other noble and great ones stand, one possible answer is that they stood with Lucifer. We can test the possibility that this answer is correct by measuring it against the knowledge we already have that many of those who followed Lucifer were, in some way, outstanding spirits.

[Seminarysnoozer]

As to the question “I wonder who and where these other noble and great ones were” It seems to me that there just isn’t enough data to come up with a satisfactory answer.

Given the current, rather limited state of our knowledge, there are some questions for which, at this time, it may only be possible to come up with a range of possible answers, rather than a single definitive truth. Inadequate and unsatisfying though such an outcome may be, this would be still be better than simply ignoring the question and not trying to come up with any answer. The likelihood, or possibility that one of these possible answers may be correct can be gauged by seeing if, or how well, that answer fits with our existing knowledge. As long as we accept that our tentative answers are only tentative, and we are prepared to discard them when additional knowledge is obtained, then there is no harm in this.

Applying this approach to the question of where did the other noble and great ones stand, one possible answer is that they stood with Lucifer. We can test the possibility that this answer is correct by measuring it against the knowledge we already have that many of those who followed Lucifer were, in some way, outstanding spirits.

Since this is a speculation thread, I suppose I would be allowed to give a speculation comment (so keep in mind this is not doctrine) ... Maybe some of the great and noble ones weren't great and noble at that point. Those were just the one's that were great and noble to the point of the first estate. Could it be possible that some will reveal their "great and noble" status while participating in the second estate?

[Anddenex]

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

As pertaining to my minds eye, God showed Abraham the intelligences that were organized...I would assume this means either all of God's children, or a portion (unspecified number, much like in a dream when a person sees a large group of people representing a larger number of people).

Then the Lord makes a distinction, among these intelligences, many of these were the noble and great ones.

I personally don't see the distinction of many within the noble and great ones. I personally believe Alma 13 should be read in connection with these verses also, which describes a choosing also, or one that according to the for knowledge of God were called.

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

Verse 23, then describes that these intelligence, noble and great ones, were good. This emphasizes the possibility that intelligences varied in being valiant also.

The Lord then points out Abraham as one of them. That he was a noble and great one, a good intelligence, differing from other intelligences.

The implication of the use of the word “many” instead of "all" suggests that there were at least some of the noble and great ones who were not shown unto Abraham, and amongst whom God did not stand. I wonder who and where these other noble and great ones were, and if any useful conclusions or possibilities can be drawn by speculating on this question. It is also interesting to note that the souls amongst whom God stood were both noble and great, and (vs 23) good, but those whom He chose not to stand with are only described as great and noble.

On my mission, with one of my companions a gentlemen approached one of the Elders in our ward. He approached saying, "I have not experienced your type of spirit often, it is different than the other Elders, it is noble and great." I thought this was very interesting, as well as in connection to the closeness the gentlemen was to the spirit. I witnessed while there 4 of 5 prophecies from this gentlemen come true.

We know noble and great ones were leaders, however, a primary president could easily be a noble and great one. We often recognize this verse as only pertaining to leaders (Within the Church), yet, a noble and great one could have been also someone like George Washington.

It would not surprise me if some of the noble and great ones are born within countries where the gospel cannot yet be preached, but with these noble and great ones, there duty is to prepare the people that the gospel can be preached and that God's promises can be fulfilled.

These noble and great ones are those that were singled out by the Lord to be leaders, or influential people, however in our lives, our choices upon this earth matter now more than our choices to earn our first estate.

These are my thoughts.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Anddenex