Romans 9:17 vs Exodus 7:3 JST

[CommanderSouth]

Is there any contradiction in these? The seemingly unfair view of Pharaoh as laid out in the plain text of Exodus is that God hardens his heart, and then punishes him for it. And God even goes so far as saying, this is why I raised him up, to show my power.

JST fixes this by saying, Pharaoh hardened his own heart, but if you look at Romans 9:17, it repeats the idea that God's power being shown is why he was raised up, and even with free will, he was raised up knowing his free will would lead to bad choices, is that any different from not having free will at all? And if God made it so he could be raised up, doesn't that hamper his free will in the beginning?

I ask all of this because I am discussing the argument of free will vs predestination with a friend, and I can't accept that a loving God would create immortal souls, knowing they would fall, never be saved, and burn in protestant hell, and I struggle to think how anyone else can either...

[Dravin]

he was raised up knowing his free will would lead to bad choices

That's true of everyone who has ever been born on this planet, sans Jesus Christ. Oh we can argue about the degree of our bad choices, but fundamentally each of us was sent here knowing we'd make bad choices. That God knew what Pharaoh was going to do, or even Judas for that matter, does not mean he made them do it.

Look at it from the other side, God raised up Moses to serve him and do a great good, did that hamper Moses' free will?

I ask all of this because I am discussing the argument of free will vs predestination with a friend, and I can't accept that a loving God would create immortal souls, knowing they would fall, never be saved, and burn in protestant hell, and I struggle to think how anyone else can either...

Is your friend arguing that Pharaoh had no role in his heart hardening? Because not all non-LDS Christians read those passages as Pharaoh having no choice in the matter of his heart. A quick Google search on the matter will show up there are different schools of thought out there about just what the implications of God saying he hardened Pharaoh's heart actually means.

Edited January 13, 2013 by Dravin

[BadWolf]

Is there any contradiction in these? The seemingly unfair view of Pharaoh as laid out in the plain text of Exodus is that God hardens his heart, and then punishes him for it. And God even goes so far as saying, this is why I raised him up, to show my power.

JST fixes this by saying, Pharaoh hardened his own heart, but if you look at Romans 9:17, it repeats the idea that God's power being shown is why he was raised up, and even with free will, he was raised up knowing his free will would lead to bad choices, is that any different from not having free will at all? And if God made it so he could be raised up, doesn't that hamper his free will in the beginning?

I ask all of this because I am discussing the argument of free will vs predestination with a friend, and I can't accept that a loving God would create immortal souls, knowing they would fall, never be saved, and burn in protestant hell, and I struggle to think how anyone else can either...

There are some FUN things here: I only have time for 1 right now!

1) When we have children... We hope & pray & work for the best... But they make their own choices. We try to teach them, use learning moments, create artificial (and real) challenges for them. But we CANNOT live their lives for them. You raise them up, close your eyes, cross your fingers, and send them out into the world.

Some will be hurt, some will hurt others. Some will learn, others will keep making the same mistakes over & over again. Some will reach their full potential, some will struggle.

I lovingly and knowingly have a child... That could be ANYONE. The sneaky kid who grows up to serve our country as a spy, or the sneaky kid who spends half his life in jail. The sunny obedient child who is loved by all who see them because she sees the good in everyone, who marries an abusive man a d is killed by him, or who grows up to teach others her compassion through her award winning human rights work?

*** Just because I know my children MAY fail, may be hurt, may suffer for their choices... Doesn't mean that I don't have (and love) my children.

Kwim?