Families Can Be Together Forever...

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 11 2004, 09:55 AM

what LDS Scripture states that non-mormons CAN'T chose to hang out with their relatives in your HEARAFTER? (and I don't want an answer like "We are taught that......) Mormons are "taught" all kinds of absurd things that I'm sure even you would consider NON-DOCTRINAL. I want to know a SCRIPTURAL source for this doctrine.

I know I was not asked this question, but since this is a message board, I'll but in.

I don't know a scriptural source, but I will take the time to look today. I don't know if I will come up with anything, but I will try. Being raised LDS (outside of Utah, still outside of Utah) I was never taught that non LDS would not be with their relatives when earthly life is over.

I have read many NDEs, and from what I understand, religion did not decide if you would be with your family or not. Most people are met by a family member. The majority of NDEs I have read are non LDS. I know they are not scripture, but I find them to be powerful and convincing. There is a commonality in them that crosses religion.

[Behunin]

Peace,

I love you. I enjoy your comments so much. You teach me so much. You always pick the appropriate scriptures.

Will you come and teach the Gospel Doctrine class in my ward?

[AFDaw]

It's also been stated that we don't believe that non-members won't be able to be with their realitives in the afterlife. We believe that the work can be done for those that have passed on. (as was stated earlier) and we also believe that everyone will be given the chances to accept the gospel.

[Cal]

AFD---you are ignoring my question.

Apparently you don't have an answer. The missionaries and Church leaders commonly try to "sell" the Church on the basis that 'families can be together forever". This implies that if you don't join the mormon church, you won't.

The fact that the mormon church teaches that we can baptize everyone for the dead is irrelevant to the question because obviously, according to mormon doctrine of free agency, not every non-mormon is going to want to be baptized, before or after death.

So again, what is the OFFICIAL doctrinal basis for IMPLYING that non-moromons won't be able to hang out with their relatives in the hearafter?

The fact that I may or may not believe in mormon scriptures is irrelevant. The point is YOU DO. So let's hear an answer.

[Cal]

Peace---you are truely a fountain of non-sense (and I mean that in the friendliest way possible) :)

You earlier stated that you felt sorry for the Catholics you saw mourning their dead relatives. How do you know they were mourning because they thought they would never see them again?

How do you know they weren't just missing them terribly? On top of that, maybe they are just rational enough to realize there is no guarantee death isn't really the end of ALL of us. After all, it is a matter of faith, not fact.

Also, the Catholics believe in the hearafter just as much as we do. And, most of the ones I have asked say they believe they will see their dead loved ones again. So, why all the "we know something you don't" stuff?

[AFDaw]

Cal - I am not ignoring your question, you're not accepting our answers. And I think it's very relative whether or not you believe in "Mormon Scripture" (as you've pointed out) If you don't believe in it, then you don't accept it. If you don't accept it, then you won't accept whatever we tell you as an answer (again, as you've point out)

example: I don't believe in the Church of Satan and it's teachings. Therefore you can't come to me with their "Bible" and say "Right here it says that Mormons are going to hell." Why? Because I don't accept it, I don't believe in it.

We've told you that we believe that so-called non-members will be able to be with their realitives in the hereafter. In fact...read a post of mine prior to this. I also wasn't the first one to state it. So obviously Cal you need this stated in BIG BOLD LETTERS. So here you go.

WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT NON-MEMBERS WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BE WITH THEIR FAMILY IN THE HEREAFTER

I hope that answers the question for you (FINALLY). I hope you accept that (FINALLY). I can't give you a "Mormon Scripture" that says we don't believe that non-members won't be able to be with their family, because that's not a belief we have.

Maybe what you should do, since you seem so set that we do believe in this, is show me where in "Mormon Scripture" it says that all non-Mormons will not be able to be with their family in the after life. I believe the burden of proof is on your shoulders.

[Cal]

AFD--fine, I'll accept that Mormons believe that non-mormons can be with their families forever.

Now, tell me why the Mormon church makes such a big deal about families being together when everyone else believes it too!

[AFDaw]

Because unlike many other church's, we don't care what other's believe. We don't sit in church and say "Hey..do the Baptist down the street believe in baptism by immersion?" 11th Article of Faith. Families are a huge part of our faith, why wouldn't we advertise it? So what if other church's believe it too, we're saying "SO DO WE!"

My question to you is why if "everyone" believes it too, why do they marry "til death do you part?"

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 11 2004, 04:32 AM

Peace -

In your zealotry, and even borderline hatefulness, you have indeed shown me the "bad side" of your religion. But zealots - any faith - are a dime a dozen. They use their religion as a weapon.... so to speak. Suggesting their God is some sort of boogeyman I need to fear. The odd thing is...... generally the LDS don't fall into this 'God as something to be afraid' of trap. I truly get the feeling if you could get a magic wand, or had a theocracy..... you would try to eliminate people like me. Seriously; I see this in you. I find your handle ironic. Peace indeed.

But it's cool. I know many of your faith who show the good side. Including the poster I was conversing with earlier. Typical of any religion.

Oh, and issues. EVERYBODY has issues of some sort. You for example don't seem to like cute kid pictures.....

scott - waiting for Peace (LOL) to go to war.

My sentiments exactly...about yourself. You really don't have very good judgment...infact I would put you in the same catagory as Jackson when it comes to the way you handle your kids.

You use them ....pure and simple....to better your situation, to give yourself satisfaction and identity. Sadly, there are way too many of your kind on the planet.

Real parents look to protect their kids, not dangle them for self-benefit or glorification.

As to my battle stance....some kinds of people just bring that out in me...others don't. So I would have to give you some credit.

As to my moniker for this board....Real Peace comes only by destroying or overcoming evil....My battle is for gaining Peace without surrendering principles of righteousness, or allowing evil to prosper while I on. Simple as that.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 11 2004, 08:55 AM

Peace--thank you for all of your assertions about your knowledge of the afterlife.

Now, would you like to answer the question I asked at the beginning of this thread?

I'll restate it for you-----what LDS Scripture states that non-mormons CAN'T chose to hang out with their relatives in your HEARAFTER? (and I don't want an answer like "We are taught that......) Mormons are "taught" all kinds of absurd things that I'm sure even you would consider NON-DOCTRINAL. I want to know a SCRIPTURAL source for this doctrine.

Boy are you demanding...am I getting paid for this job???? Okay...here is a statement from a 'prophet'...

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

Joseph F. Smith: Man cannot receive the fulness of the blessings unless he fulfills the law.... I understand the law of celestial marriage to mean that every man in this church who has the ability to obey and practice it in righteousness and will not, shall be damned. I say I understand it to mean this and nothing less, and I testify in the name of Jesus that it does mean that. (J.D. 20:28)

"All men who become heirs of God and joint heirs of Jesus Christ will have to have received the fulness of the ordinances of His Kingdom; and those who will not receive all the ordinances will come short of the fulness of that glory, if they do not lose the whole." (DHC 5:424)

[Guest Starsky]

In red is D&C 132:18...

I really need an edit thingy.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Behunin@Jan 11 2004, 09:29 AM

Peace,

I love you. I enjoy your comments so much. You teach me so much. You always pick the appropriate scriptures.

Will you come and teach the Gospel Doctrine class in my ward?

LOL ...I was the Gospel Doctrine teacher for a while...the members like me...but the leadership didn't like me because I pretty much didn't like using the book...LOL

But thank you very much for your nice words.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 12 2004, 06:52 PM

Peace---you are truely a fountain of non-sense (and I mean that in the friendliest way possible) :)

You earlier stated that you felt sorry for the Catholics you saw mourning their dead relatives. How do you know they were mourning because they thought they would never see them again?

How do you know they weren't just missing them terribly? On top of that, maybe they are just rational enough to realize there is no guarantee death isn't really the end of ALL of us. After all, it is a matter of faith, not fact.

Also, the Catholics believe in the hearafter just as much as we do. And, most of the ones I have asked say they believe they will see their dead loved ones again. So, why all the "we know something you don't" stuff?

All the 'we know something you don't stuff' is just that...we do know stuff they don't. We also have the priesthood authority...in righteousness...

Sorry if that bothers you.

And as to the Catholics....we were in their homes and they would tell us their stories...and they would tell us they were being taught theywould not ever see their loved ones in the after life.

But more than this...it is doctrine.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Behunin+Jan 11 2004, 09:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Behunin @ Jan 11 2004, 09:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 11 2004, 09:55 AM

what LDS Scripture states that non-mormons CAN'T chose to hang out with their relatives in your HEARAFTER? (and I don't want an answer like "We are taught that......) Mormons are "taught" all kinds of absurd things that I'm sure even you would consider NON-DOCTRINAL. I want to know a SCRIPTURAL source for this doctrine.

I know I was not asked this question, but since this is a message board, I'll but in.

I don't know a scriptural source, but I will take the time to look today. I don't know if I will come up with anything, but I will try. Being raised LDS (outside of Utah, still outside of Utah) I was never taught that non LDS would not be with their relatives when earthly life is over.

I have read many NDEs, and from what I understand, religion did not decide if you would be with your family or not. Most people are met by a family member. The majority of NDEs I have read are non LDS. I know they are not scripture, but I find them to be powerful and convincing. There is a commonality in them that crosses religion.

Actually, I believe...that before judgment...there is a 'time' alotted where those who are being taught the gospel may go and meet family members when they pass over.

We forget the 'final judgment' hasn't taken place...and the spirits are out on bail....they can participate with family coming home ....they are not yet sentenced....

And after they are sentenced...they will still have opportunity to be visited by family who are in kingdoms or levels above their own.

[Guest Starsky]

Proof of the visitation of higher level kingdom people visiting lower level kingdoms can be witnessed by the fact we have angels coming from God's presence in the Celestial Kingdom...down to this telestial level world.

This is just a type of what is also possible in the realms above.

[Guest Starsky]

Actually, I believe...that before judgment...there is a 'time' alotted where those who are being taught the gospel may go and meet family members when they pass over.

We forget the 'final judgment' hasn't taken place...and the spirits are out on bail....they can participate with family coming home ....they are not yet sentenced....

And after they are sentenced...they will still have opportunity to be visited by family who are in kingdoms or levels above their own.

I don't like the word I chose here....forget the word sentenced and go with the word quickened....by a lower level of glory...if they have refused the gospel... (D&C 88:28-32)

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 13 2004, 01:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 13 2004, 01:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Behunin@Jan 11 2004, 09:25 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 11 2004, 09:55 AM

what LDS Scripture states that non-mormons CAN'T chose to hang out with their relatives in your HEARAFTER? (and I don't want an answer like "We are taught that......) Mormons are "taught" all kinds of absurd things that I'm sure even you would consider NON-DOCTRINAL. I want to know a SCRIPTURAL source for this doctrine.

I know I was not asked this question, but since this is a message board, I'll but in.

I don't know a scriptural source, but I will take the time to look today. I don't know if I will come up with anything, but I will try. Being raised LDS (outside of Utah, still outside of Utah) I was never taught that non LDS would not be with their relatives when earthly life is over.

I have read many NDEs, and from what I understand, religion did not decide if you would be with your family or not. Most people are met by a family member. The majority of NDEs I have read are non LDS. I know they are not scripture, but I find them to be powerful and convincing. There is a commonality in them that crosses religion.

Actually, I believe...that before judgment...there is a 'time' alotted where those who are being taught the gospel may go and meet family members when they pass over.

We forget the 'final judgment' hasn't taken place...and the spirits are out on bail....they can participate with family coming home ....they are not yet sentenced....

And after they are sentenced...they will still have opportunity to be visited by family who are in kingdoms or levels above their own.

I believe that this time allotted is the time between this life and the resurrection. Life in the spirit world.

[sgallan]

My sentiments exactly...about yourself. You really don't have very good judgment...infact I would put you in the same catagory as Jackson when it comes to the way you handle your kids. *****

Lets see; straight A student. Happy as can be (obvious from the picture). Athletic. Loving doting parents. Living life without the fears you obviously have of life and the world. Lives in a small town (by her parents choice at a cost of considerable salary) where we can leave the doors unlocked. And when she gets older and so much as hints at doing something wrong; somebody in the community will have told us about it within hours. She eats healty - no sugared sodas. Exercises. Does a variety of activities from wrestling to cheer to hiking to quads to Tae Kwan Do to weight training and so on. All on her own. The only thing I push a little is the wrestling. But even then; this year she told me NO to wrestling folkstyle (I was so bummed as I so wanted to go to Vegas for a big tournament). So we are wrestling freestyle only. So lets see; healthy, smart, fit, eats right, happy. Yup, we are obviously doing an awful job at this parenting thing.

*** You use them ....pure and simple....to better your situation,****

See above; we have GIVEN UP things for this kid. Oh, I also spend do a full 50% of the raising of the kid.

*** to give yourself satisfaction and identity. ****

I got plenty of identity. I volunteer with kids to the tune of 20 hours a week. I was a world class powerlifter. Am a nationals class Veterans wrestler. I am a tough adjunct college professor teaching distance Ed to mostly convicts so they can perhaps stop the cycle. I am doing a gratis (free) Independent Study for one of my students so he can graduate and I also get into the prisons once a month or so (not required) to visit with the guys. I have an attractive wife who I am madly in love with, and who after all these years STILL has wild sex with me. I still lift. Am fit. Take six weeks of vacation a year to do wrestling stuff (my own and the kids) as well as visit family and go to Yosemite. And so much more. Oh, and I am enormously humble. Do I sound like I have an identity problem? Well, perhaps I do have a humility problem.

*** Sadly, there are way too many of your kind on the planet. ****

I see them all of the time. As a coach I find them to be a pain in the behind.

*** Real parents look to protect their kids, *****

No, you are no doubt raising, or have raised, paranoid kids/adults. Scared of their own shadows. Looking for the demons of the world. Trust me, I am married to an alcoholic/addict wife and have had three first cousins die to the ravanges of the world. I know a LOT about the BAD stuff. Been there and done that.

Oh, and those kids I coach.... some of their family situations are abyssmal. But unlike you "scared of yor own shadow" types..... I try to help in some small way.

**** not dangle them for self-benefit or glorification. ****

I got enough of my own glorification thank you. Would you like to hear more about me? But I AM into building a kids self-esteem and nurturing a gifted child. You and your attitudes are what scare me about parents. Just what the world needs...... more zealots.

**** As to my battle stance....some kinds of people just bring that out in me...others don't.*****

How typically Christian zealot of you.

**** So I would have to give you some credit. ****

Thank you.

Thank you

**** As to my moniker for this board....Real Peace comes only by destroying or overcoming evil....My battle is for gaining Peace without surrendering principles of righteousness, or allowing evil to prosper while I on. Simple as that. ****

Like I said..... just another zealot. And while you are busy hating..... I am busy actually trying to DO something to help in some small way. Go figure. Thanks for the illustration of the value of your "specific" faith for my cutie. I think we will pass. My wife agrees.

Your turn.....

[Cal]

Peace--You and AFD need to get your stories straight. AFD thinks that non-mormon families can be together in the hearafter and you think they can't.

By the way, those scriptures and quotes you gave say nothing about my question. DC only says that in order to be married in the hearafter you have to be married by the priesthood here. What does being married have to do with hanging out together?

The fact that you and AFD have different views on this points out something I have noticed about Mormon doctrine---it doesn't really exists. Talk to any Mormon, or even read different GA talks and statements, and you get a bunch of conflicting ideas. No one seems to actually know the answers to these questions, inspite of claiming that the Mormons have all these ANSWERS for the the POOR CATHOLICs and the like.

I guess it just goes to show that Mormonism is just another man-made religion, like the rest.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Behunin+Jan 13 2004, 05:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Behunin @ Jan 13 2004, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 13 2004, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by -Behunin@Jan 11 2004, 09:25 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 11 2004, 09:55 AM

what LDS Scripture states that non-mormons CAN'T chose to hang out with their relatives in your HEARAFTER? (and I don't want an answer like "We are taught that......) Mormons are "taught" all kinds of absurd things that I'm sure even you would consider NON-DOCTRINAL. I want to know a SCRIPTURAL source for this doctrine.

I know I was not asked this question, but since this is a message board, I'll but in.

I don't know a scriptural source, but I will take the time to look today. I don't know if I will come up with anything, but I will try. Being raised LDS (outside of Utah, still outside of Utah) I was never taught that non LDS would not be with their relatives when earthly life is over.

I have read many NDEs, and from what I understand, religion did not decide if you would be with your family or not. Most people are met by a family member. The majority of NDEs I have read are non LDS. I know they are not scripture, but I find them to be powerful and convincing. There is a commonality in them that crosses religion.

Actually, I believe...that before judgment...there is a 'time' alotted where those who are being taught the gospel may go and meet family members when they pass over.

We forget the 'final judgment' hasn't taken place...and the spirits are out on bail....they can participate with family coming home ....they are not yet sentenced....

And after they are sentenced...they will still have opportunity to be visited by family who are in kingdoms or levels above their own.

I believe that this time allotted is the time between this life and the resurrection. Life in the spirit world.

Exactly!

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 13 2004, 07:33 AM

My sentiments exactly...about yourself. You really don't have very good judgment...infact I would put you in the same catagory as Jackson when it comes to the way you handle your kids. *****

Lets see; straight A student. Happy as can be (obvious from the picture). Athletic. Loving doting parents. Living life without the fears you obviously have of life and the world. Lives in a small town (by her parents choice at a cost of considerable salary) where we can leave the doors unlocked. And when she gets older and so much as hints at doing something wrong; somebody in the community will have told us about it within hours. She eats healty - no sugared sodas. Exercises. Does a variety of activities from wrestling to cheer to hiking to quads to Tae Kwan Do to weight training and so on. All on her own. The only thing I push a little is the wrestling. But even then; this year she told me NO to wrestling folkstyle (I was so bummed as I so wanted to go to Vegas for a big tournament). So we are wrestling freestyle only. So lets see; healthy, smart, fit, eats right, happy. Yup, we are obviously doing an awful job at this parenting thing.

*** You use them ....pure and simple....to better your situation,****

See above; we have GIVEN UP things for this kid. Oh, I also spend do a full 50% of the raising of the kid.

*** to give yourself satisfaction and identity. ****

I got plenty of identity. I volunteer with kids to the tune of 20 hours a week. I was a world class powerlifter. Am a nationals class Veterans wrestler. I am a tough adjunct college professor teaching distance Ed to mostly convicts so they can perhaps stop the cycle. I am doing a gratis (free) Independent Study for one of my students so he can graduate and I also get into the prisons once a month or so (not required) to visit with the guys. I have an attractive wife who I am madly in love with, and who after all these years STILL has wild sex with me. I still lift. Am fit. Take six weeks of vacation a year to do wrestling stuff (my own and the kids) as well as visit family and go to Yosemite. And so much more. Oh, and I am enormously humble. Do I sound like I have an identity problem? Well, perhaps I do have a humility problem.

*** Sadly, there are way too many of your kind on the planet. ****

I see them all of the time. As a coach I find them to be a pain in the behind.

*** Real parents look to protect their kids, *****

No, you are no doubt raising, or have raised, paranoid kids/adults. Scared of their own shadows. Looking for the demons of the world. Trust me, I am married to an alcoholic/addict wife and have had three first cousins die to the ravanges of the world. I know a LOT about the BAD stuff. Been there and done that.

Oh, and those kids I coach.... some of their family situations are abyssmal. But unlike you "scared of yor own shadow" types..... I try to help in some small way.

**** not dangle them for self-benefit or glorification. ****

I got enough of my own glorification thank you. Would you like to hear more about me? But I AM into building a kids self-esteem and nurturing a gifted child. You and your attitudes are what scare me about parents. Just what the world needs...... more zealots.

**** As to my battle stance....some kinds of people just bring that out in me...others don't.*****

How typically Christian zealot of you.

**** So I would have to give you some credit. ****

Thank you.

Thank you

**** As to my moniker for this board....Real Peace comes only by destroying or overcoming evil....My battle is for gaining Peace without surrendering principles of righteousness, or allowing evil to prosper while I on. Simple as that. ****

Like I said..... just another zealot. And while you are busy hating..... I am busy actually trying to DO something to help in some small way. Go figure. Thanks for the illustration of the value of your "specific" faith for my cutie. I think we will pass. My wife agrees.

Your turn.....

You sound like a very sick man to me.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 13 2004, 08:32 AM

Peace--You and AFD need to get your stories straight. AFD thinks that non-mormon families can be together in the hearafter and you think they can't.

By the way, those scriptures and quotes you gave say nothing about my question. DC only says that in order to be married in the hearafter you have to be married by the priesthood here. What does being married have to do with hanging out together?

The fact that you and AFD have different views on this points out something I have noticed about Mormon doctrine---it doesn't really exists. Talk to any Mormon, or even read different GA talks and statements, and you get a bunch of conflicting ideas. No one seems to actually know the answers to these questions, inspite of claiming that the Mormons have all these ANSWERS for the the POOR CATHOLICs and the like.

I guess it just goes to show that Mormonism is just another man-made religion, like the rest.

Our stories are straight...He is talking about after the ressurrection...I am speaking about before...and conditionally.

You are grasping at straws.

[Guest Starsky]

The fact that you and AFD have different views on this points out something I have noticed about Mormon doctrine---it doesn't really exists. Talk to any Mormon, or even read different GA talks and statements, and you get a bunch of conflicting ideas. No one seems to actually know the answers to these questions, inspite of claiming that the Mormons have all these ANSWERS for the the POOR CATHOLICs and the like.

You could compare it to the 'elephant and the 7 blind men'...each is approaching just one element or part of the elephant....

The only difference is...we are all 'seeing' our part...not blindly ... but talking about each part concerning a multifaceted doctrine.

Time....and part we are talking about clearifies and unifies what we have all said.

There is the pre-mortal, the mortal, the post mortal...spirit prison/paradise (depending upon what you have done with what you know) the judgment, the final judgment...and the place where you come to...celestial, terrestial, telestial, outer darkness.

No one knows just how long this whole process takes....but Joseph Smith once taught there was about 5 billion something years in an eternity.

He also taught that everything was one eternal round.

So...you may try to simplify this whole thing and try and pretend we are all teaching different doctrines and confusion...but in reality...you are just not seeing the whole picture....

[sgallan]

You sound like a very sick man to me. ****

Well if helping people, and enjoying life, is a sign of illness to you..... I'll take it as a compliment. Thank you.

Sure beats your alternative....... fear and waiting around to die for a better hereafter. I don't see any value in that. That's just me though. To each their own.

Scott - who always find it fascinating that zealots have such antipathy for anything good.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 13 2004, 11:31 AM

You sound like a very sick man to me. ****

Well if helping people, and enjoying life, is a sign of illness to you..... I'll take it as a compliment. Thank you.

Sure beats your alternative....... fear and waiting around to die for a better hereafter. I don't see any value in that. That's just me though. To each their own.

Scott - who always find it fascinating that zealots have such antipathy for anything good.

LOL.....

btw...gallon....that is a name I know here in the utvalley. Roger Gallon is a rich slum lord here among the trailorcourt waifs.