Be perfect (Matt 5:48)

[Seminarysnoozer]

Not sure why you are saying this - those that thought this to be true in the pre-existance were cast out.

Again I am not sure you are thinking this through. See Moses 5:11

By the very definition of carnal - one cannot have "seed" without carnal desire. What you may be missing is understanding carnal when corrupted and misguided in direct association with being sensual and devilish. But I contend that the desire to create life through "carnal desire" within the guidelines of marriage is sacred, holy and necessary to become "like G-d". Another term for this is the New and Everlasting Covenant.

The Traveler

I am not sure why you are saying that ... those that passed the first estate test, all of us, knew that this life was not permanent, that we would have a Savior to take us back from this fallen state. Those that failed the first estate test did not have enough faith that they could be brought back from the fallen state and thought it too risky.

Those that believe the Fall was not that far tend to believe that we are very similar to our pre-mortal self and our post-mortal self. Those that realize the Fall was a great distance, one that can only be traversed by a pure Savior, realize that we are currently WAY different than our pre-mortal and post-mortal self. One of Satan's best deceptions is to get us to believe that we are carnal, that that is who we really are.

There is a difference between principles and doctrine. There is doctrine for this world, to help us through this world which are necessary for us to become like God in the sense that we pass through this world without becoming carnally minded. For example, do you think we will need to take on the body and blood of Christ every Sunday like we do here for the eternities, after one has received a Celestial body?

[Traveler]

I am not sure why you are saying that ... those that passed the first estate test, all of us, knew that this life was not permanent, that we would have a Savior to take us back from this fallen state. Those that failed the first estate test did not have enough faith that they could be brought back from the fallen state and thought it too risky.

You will have to help me with the scripture that states that those that did not keep their first estate was because they "did not have enough faith that they could be brought back from the fallen state and thought it too risky." I think you are reading in a little extra here that is not in scripture.

Those that believe the Fall was not that far tend to believe that we are very similar to our pre-mortal self and our post-mortal self. Those that realize the Fall was a great distance, one that can only be traversed by a pure Savior, realize that we are currently WAY different than our pre-mortal and post-mortal self. One of Satan's best deceptions is to get us to believe that we are carnal, that that is who we really are.

Not sure what you are trying to say - in my view Satan best deception is to attempt to convince his victims to be undisciplined. It is not our carnal desires - it is allowing our carnal desires to take us outside the bounds that G-d has specified in his law of chastity.

There is a difference between principles and doctrine. There is doctrine for this world, to help us through this world which are necessary for us to become like God in the sense that we pass through this world without becoming carnally minded. For example, do you think we will need to take on the body and blood of Christ every Sunday like we do here for the eternities, after one has received a Celestial body?

Sorry I am a little confused - I do not believe we take on the body or the blood of Christ but rather that we eat in "remembrance" of the body that was broken for us and drink in "remembrance" of the blood what was shed for us. I believe we will do whatever is recommended however regularly it is necessary to remember Christ when we have a Celestial body as much as we are so asked in this mortal existence.

I believe the essence of being Celestial in eternity is taught symbolically in principle through the ordinances of the priesthood in this fallen state.

The Traveler

Edited December 23, 2013 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

You will have to help me with the scripture that states that those that did not keep their first estate was because they "did not have enough faith that they could be brought back from the fallen state and thought it too risky." I think you are reading in a little extra here that is not in scripture.

Not sure what you are trying to say - in my view Satan best deception is to attempt to convince his victims to be undisciplined. It is not our carnal desires - it is allowing our carnal desires to take us outside the bounds that G-d has specified in his law of chastity.

Sorry I am a little confused - I do not believe we take on the body or the blood of Christ but rather that we eat in "remembrance" of the body that was broken for us and drink in "remembrance" of the blood what was shed for us. I believe we will do whatever is recommended however regularly it is necessary to remember Christ when we have a Celestial body as much as we are so asked in this mortal existence.

I believe the essence of being Celestial in eternity is taught symbolically in principle through the ordinances of the priesthood in this fallen state.

The Traveler

I might have to address the First estate thing later, not enough time tonight.

As far as the Sacrament, of course it is symbolic but I think it is important to realize why there is symbolism related to the flesh and blood. Why not just take on His spirit, or His love, or His way, etc.?

As it says in Gospel Principles; "Our Savior wants us to remember His great atoning sacrifice and keep His commandments. To help us do this, He has commanded us to meet often and partake of the sacrament.

The sacrament is a holy priesthood ordinance that helps remind us of the Savior’s Atonement. During the sacrament, we partake of bread and water. We do this in remembrance of His flesh and His blood, which He gave as a sacrifice for us."

Christ is our great example. He gave of His flesh and His blood and we are to remember this as an example. I don't think it has to be any more clear than that.

D&C 98 " 13 And whoso layeth down his life in my cause, for my name’s sake, shall find it again, even life eternal.

14 Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy."

Romans 12, Paul explains " 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

Abraham was willing to give his son (which of course is just his earthly body, not his spirit) as a sacrifice.

Alma 24 :" 18 And this they did, it being in their view a testimony to God, and also to men, that they never would use weapons again for the shedding of man’s blood; and this they did, vouching and covenanting with God, that rather than shed the blood of their brethren they would give up their own lives;"

By Elder Hamula; "Understand, my young friends, that there is only one way to win the war against Satan, and that is to win it in the same way it was won in the beginning. When victory was finally achieved in the War in Heaven, a loud voice was heard to declare:

“Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ. …

“For they [referring to Michael and his angels] have overcome him [referring to the devil] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death.” 24 Do not miss the significance of this declaration. Satan was overcome in the beginning by (1) faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice, (2) testimony of Him that was steadfastly kept to the very end, and (3) consecration of oneself to the Lord and His work. If this was the means for defeating him in the beginning, you can be sure that this is the one sure way to defeat him now."

[Traveler]

I might have to address the First estate thing later, not enough time tonight.

As far as the Sacrament, of course it is symbolic but I think it is important to realize why there is symbolism related to the flesh and blood. Why not just take on His spirit, or His love, or His way, etc.?

As it says in Gospel Principles; "Our Savior wants us to remember His great atoning sacrifice and keep His commandments. To help us do this, He has commanded us to meet often and partake of the sacrament.

The sacrament is a holy priesthood ordinance that helps remind us of the Savior’s Atonement. During the sacrament, we partake of bread and water. We do this in remembrance of His flesh and His blood, which He gave as a sacrifice for us."

Christ is our great example. He gave of His flesh and His blood and we are to remember this as an example. I don't think it has to be any more clear than that.

D&C 98 " 13 And whoso layeth down his life in my cause, for my name’s sake, shall find it again, even life eternal.

14 Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy."

Romans 12, Paul explains " 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

Abraham was willing to give his son (which of course is just his earthly body, not his spirit) as a sacrifice.

Alma 24 :" 18 And this they did, it being in their view a testimony to God, and also to men, that they never would use weapons again for the shedding of man’s blood; and this they did, vouching and covenanting with God, that rather than shed the blood of their brethren they would give up their own lives;"

By Elder Hamula; "Understand, my young friends, that there is only one way to win the war against Satan, and that is to win it in the same way it was won in the beginning. When victory was finally achieved in the War in Heaven, a loud voice was heard to declare:

“Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ. …

“For they [referring to Michael and his angels] have overcome him [referring to the devil] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death.” 24 Do not miss the significance of this declaration. Satan was overcome in the beginning by (1) faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice, (2) testimony of Him that was steadfastly kept to the very end, and (3) consecration of oneself to the Lord and His work. If this was the means for defeating him in the beginning, you can be sure that this is the one sure way to defeat him now."

The point that seem obvious to me is that a physical body is 100% necessary for perfection. As important is spirituality is - by itself, that which is spiriual cannot ever be perfection. The failure to balance and appriciate and enjoy the physical (man is that he might have joy) will fail.

The Traveler

[StarKist]

It's great that nobody stays perfect. It gives color and purpose to our existence.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The point that seem obvious to me is that a physical body is 100% necessary for perfection. As important is spirituality is - by itself, that which is spiriual cannot ever be perfection. The failure to balance and appriciate and enjoy the physical (man is that he might have joy) will fail.

The Traveler

The child that dies on hour number one of life certainly does not "balance" or "enjoy" their mortal physicality and will certainly not "fail". (I left out appreciation because I am sure they appreciated the opportunity to receive a body before and after.) A physical body (a resurrected body) is 100% necessary for perfection but don't mix that up with a mortal/fallen/carnal body. The resurrected body is none of those things. The failure to be a good steward which includes working with the "talents" our mortal body provides will result in failure.

According to LDS.org; "The Lord condemns infant baptism (Moro. 8:10–21). Children are born innocent and without sin. Satan has no power to tempt children until they begin to become accountable (D&C 29:46–47) so they have no need to repent or be baptized."

Also according to LDS.org; Definition of steward; "A person who takes care of the affairs or property of another. That which a steward cares for is called a stewardship. All things on earth belong to the Lord; we are his stewards. We are accountable to the Lord, but we may report on our stewardship to God’s authorized representatives. When we receive a calling of service from the Lord or his authorized servants, that stewardship may include both spiritual and temporal affairs."

Thus, our body is not our "property". It is simply an attitude thing. All things related to the body, including personality, talents, traits etc. is not our property. It is only our stewardship. We want to be good stewards over this stewardship so that we can have GREATER responsibility. Matthew 25; "21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Satan's trap is for us to fall in love with the "few" things and try to make them our own, like the unjust steward. To realize this stewardship (our body) is not ours, it is not our property, is necessary in being a faithful servant. If we claim it as our own, like the unjust steward, we will fail. The fallen body (mortality) is a test. The test is necessary for those who live beyond the age of 8 and are held accountable for mortal choices.

It would be narrow minded to think that a final exam for a class contains all the information learned in the class. The final exam is just a sampling of key points of everything learned during the class. A final exam is not intended to be a complete and whole expression of all the information and therefore itself alone is not perfection. During the final exam, all the text books are closed and the chalk board is covered. All information is not directly available but what is remembered (i.e. - spirituality). The body provides a way to test the spirit.

Elder Bednar said it very clearly in April's conference; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. "

[Traveler]

....

According to LDS.org; "The Lord condemns infant baptism (Moro. 8:10–21). Children are born innocent and without sin. Satan has no power to tempt children until they begin to become accountable (D&C 29:46–47) so they have no need to repent or be baptized."

....

The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death.

....

"

Just wondering if you see any contradiction in any degree in your previous posts? Do you believe children were created with a fallen nature and are subject to the pull of sin - or are children born innocent and without any subjectivity to the “pull of sin”?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

....

All things on earth belong to the Lord; we are his stewards.

...

"

Wondering if you are quoting this correctly and in the proper context - Are spirits actual and real “things”?

Is your spirit here on earth?

Are you a steward of your spirit or is it your spirit?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Just wondering if you see any contradiction in any degree in your previous posts? Do you believe children were created with a fallen nature and are subject to the pull of sin - or are children born innocent and without any subjectivity to the “pull of sin”?

The Traveler

As you know and as we have discussed many times, I believe we are dual beings. The spirits of children are innocent and remain so until the age of accountability. God will take into account all the variables that we do not see. If it were not so there would not be scriptures that say things like, where much is given much is required.

Of course, I believe in the restored gospel that says pretty clearly; D &C; " 46 But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten;

47 Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me;"

I am not sure why you are asking that.

Could they be innocent and yet inhabit a fallen, corrupted body? Yes! Again, we are dual beings. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. I am not my body, neither are you. It is just your stewardship. We become accountable for the body, to do the best we can with what we are given (where much is given much is required) but my fallen body does not define me anymore than a spirit who was given a body that has three chromosome 21s. We all have fallen bodies that are not linearly related to our spiritual stature and yet are individually given as specific necessary stewardship. Some people adopt their physical traits as their self identity over the course of a lifetime, which is unfortunate. We should not put our heart on treasures that turn to dust.

This reminds me of Elder Andersen's talk in 2011; "Those who follow the game of rugby know that the New Zealand All Blacks, a name given because of the color of their uniform, is the most celebrated rugby team ever. 3 To be selected for the All Blacks in New Zealand would be comparable to playing for a football Super Bowl team or a World Cup soccer team.

In 1961, at age 18 and holding the Aaronic Priesthood, Sidney Going was becoming a star in New Zealand rugby. Because of his remarkable abilities, many thought he would be chosen the very next year for the national All Blacks rugby team.

At age 19, in this critical moment of his ascending rugby career, Sid declared that he would forgo rugby to serve a mission. Some called him crazy. Others called him foolish. 4 They protested that his opportunity in rugby might never come again." ... "A mission instead of a place on the New Zealand All Blacks team? Sid responded, “The blessing of [bringing others] into the gospel far outweighs anything [you] will ever sacrifice.”

This discussion also makes me think of the parable that Christ gave: " 45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it."

Whatever attributes our worldly pride tempts us with, they are nothing compared to the treasure in heaven. The pearl of great price is worth the price of all we have, including our body.

And as Elder Bruce Porter says (Oct. 2007); "As we make the sacrifice to Him of all that we have and all that we are, the Lord will fill our hearts with peace. He will “bind up the brokenhearted” (Isaiah 61:1) and grace our lives with the love of God, “sweet above all that is sweet, … and pure above all that is pure” (Alma 32:42). Of this I testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen." (underline and bold added, of course - but not out of any context, it is the end of his talk)

[Seminarysnoozer]

Wondering if you are quoting this correctly and in the proper context - Are spirits actual and real “things”?

Is your spirit here on earth?

Are you a steward of your spirit or is it your spirit?

The Traveler

I am not sure how I could quote it incorrectly. Go to LDS.org and type in "steward". You will see, word for word, what I quoted. There was no alteration of the definition. There was nothing left out of the definition except at the end it had "(D&C 29:34)".

I think what you are trying to ask me is if I interpreted the quote in the proper context. Maybe?

And that is exactly why I followed that with Elder Bednar's talk. It draws the line pretty clearly.

Our mortal body is a temporary thing, I can't see how you would see it any other way. Yes, we can obtain a resurrected body. But, this is exactly why I started this whole conversation with, it depends how far you think we have "fallen". If one considers our state as hardly different from the pre-mortal state then I can see where someone would suggest that our current stewardship (mortality) is reflective of self in some kind of linear way. But we know that is not true. We have fallen very far. We know that the spirit that occupies the Down Syndrome body is pure and remains perfect and will be perfected with a celestial resurrection. And yet the Down's syndrome body is very flawed. We have fallen so far that we hardly can even imagine our premortal state. We have fallen so far that it takes a Savior to pull us out of this state.

I go back to the metaphor of a final exam. The exam itself does not contain all the information but is intended to reflect the whole of the material tested. Mortality, also, was never intended to be a complete whole of the material available but just a piece of the overall final exam. For some it is just "extra credit" as they pass right through mortality without really having to take the test - all those that die before the age of 8.

[Traveler]

SS:

It is not so much the information but the conclusion that you draw and the points you choose to emphases. And it is not that the points you draw or conclusions you make are wrong and should never be emphasized - just that I see things on a broader spectrum or scale. I think your concepts are too focused and narrow. A prime example is the concept of a dual nature. Like Newtonian physics can explain a great deal about what we understand and observe in our physical existence - the concept of the dual nature of man explains a lot about our spiritual / physical conflicts. However, such concepts limit understanding and leave gaps in specific observations and experiences.

Categorizing all things physical as corrupted evil and all things spiritual as pure G-dly perfection limits the joy and beauty that can and should be enjoyed in this life and fosters a variety of false doctrines that historically resulted from such extreme thinking as Gnosticism.

There is a saying that to a hammer everything looks like a nail. What this is trying to explain is that if a hammer (dual nature) is the only tool one has to understand all the things they perceive - they will try to use the only took (hammer) at their disposal to address their world concept - which is unfortunate when other more effective tools are available for certain purposes - especially to the Saints of G-d that have access to so much more.

Likewise the principles of stewardship are valuable and so are the principles of agency. The concept of stewardship and agency, for example, explain a great deal of the atonement and why our sins “can” become the debt of G-d. But as you have pointed out so many times - stewardship and agency does not explain the fallen states of children (and others) that suffer and/or die before they are capable of being justly accountable to stewardship or agency. Obviously from such a perspective something is missing (unexplained) from such observations and considerations of justly accountable and justly achieved in the final judgment.

The Traveler

Edited January 3, 2014 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

SS:

It is not so much the information but the conclusion that you draw and the points you choose to emphases. And it is not that the points you draw or conclusions you make are wrong and should never be emphasized - just that I see things on a broader spectrum or scale. I think your concepts are too focused and narrow. A prime example is the concept of a dual nature. Like Newtonian physics can explain a great deal about what we understand and observe in our physical existence - the concept of the dual nature of man explains a lot about our spiritual / physical conflicts. However, such concepts limit understanding and leave gaps in specific observations and experiences.

Categorizing all things physical as corrupted evil and all things spiritual as pure G-dly perfection limits the joy and beauty that can and should be enjoyed in this life and fosters a variety of false doctrines that historically resulted from such extreme thinking as Gnosticism.

There is a saying that to a hammer everything looks like a nail. What this is trying to explain is that if a hammer (dual nature) is the only tool one has to understand all the things they perceive - they will try to use the only took (hammer) at their disposal to address their world concept - which is unfortunate when other more effective tools are available for certain purposes - especially to the Saints of G-d that have access to so much more.

Likewise the principles of stewardship are valuable and so are the principles of agency. The concept of stewardship and agency, for example, explain a great deal of the atonement and why our sins “can” become the debt of G-d. But as you have pointed out so many times - stewardship and agency does not explain the fallen states of children (and others) that suffer and/or die before they are capable of being justly accountable to stewardship or agency. Obviously from such a perspective something is missing (unexplained) from such observations and considerations of justly accountable and justly achieved in the final judgment.

The Traveler

I appreciate your comments. Thank you.

I agree with what you are saying here. The problem is that we have no ability to see the shades of grey and the variables. That is left for God to judge the specifics of any individuals circumstances and variables that we cannot perceive.

The dual being concept is not mine. It is a theme throughout the scriptures and our gospel and I think Paul, especially in Corinthians spends a lot of verse on that topic; spiritually minded vs. carnally minded; grace vs. works; Jesus son of God and man; being both Jew and Christian, etc. Starting with Genesis we learn that man is not meant to be alone.

The combination of the body and spirit makes the soul. I realize you would rather just talk about the soul but to me that is over simplified. As Elder Bednar explained, that is the primary battle we face here on Earth, to distinguish the source, to discern.

The pharisees lacked this ability to discern between fleshy things and spiritual things; Jesus explained: John 8 "12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man."

The spiritual mind is one that looks beyond the flesh and sees the bigger picture. The narrow mind is the one that cannot distinguish the two. The pharisees did not understand the spiritual Jesus, they just saw the man before them.

[Traveler]

I appreciate your comments. Thank you.

I agree with what you are saying here. The problem is that we have no ability to see the shades of grey and the variables. That is left for God to judge the specifics of any individuals circumstances and variables that we cannot perceive.

The dual being concept is not mine. It is a theme throughout the scriptures and our gospel and I think Paul, especially in Corinthians spends a lot of verse on that topic; spiritually minded vs. carnally minded; grace vs. works; Jesus son of God and man; being both Jew and Christian, etc. Starting with Genesis we learn that man is not meant to be alone.

The combination of the body and spirit makes the soul. I realize you would rather just talk about the soul but to me that is over simplified. As Elder Bednar explained, that is the primary battle we face here on Earth, to distinguish the source, to discern.

The pharisees lacked this ability to discern between fleshy things and spiritual things; Jesus explained: John 8 "12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man."

The spiritual mind is one that looks beyond the flesh and sees the bigger picture. The narrow mind is the one that cannot distinguish the two. The pharisees did not understand the spiritual Jesus, they just saw the man before them.

I am not sure I understand you terms - because of the evolution (word entomology) I am thinking that the concept of integrated is a better description than dual. The way dual is being used implies that the two must be separated and the physical limited and discarded - but I contend that the two - the physical and the spiritual must be brought together in order to understand divine things.

· 3 Nephi 28: 10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;

· Doctrine and Covenants 93: 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy.

· 34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

· Psalms 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

If the trick is to turn off all that is physical then this life could not a possible path to divine things. But by practical experience we know that the physical greatly dominates - so much so that all things spiritual can be droned out in the din. Thus the physical must be disciplined by the subtle influences of the much less obvious spirit. The fact is that the Scribes and Pharisees took the direct understanding of scripture to justify their interpretation. But no interpretation of scripture is correct without the addition of revelation - once again bringing to bear the concept of integration rather that separating into separate parts by thinking in terms of dual. I submit that there is not a single physical pleasure that by its self will not become corrupt but if integrated as taught by the spirit will be enjoyed for eternity - See Psalms above.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am not sure I understand you terms - because of the evolution (word entomology) I am thinking that the concept of integrated is a better description than dual. The way dual is being used implies that the two must be separated and the physical limited and discarded - but I contend that the two - the physical and the spiritual must be brought together in order to understand divine things.

· 3 Nephi 28: 10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;

· Doctrine and Covenants 93: 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy.

· 34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

· Psalms 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

If the trick is to turn off all that is physical then this life could not a possible path to divine things. But by practical experience we know that the physical greatly dominates - so much so that all things spiritual can be droned out in the din. Thus the physical must be disciplined by the subtle influences of the much less obvious spirit. The fact is that the Scribes and Pharisees took the direct understanding of scripture to justify their interpretation. But no interpretation of scripture is correct without the addition of revelation - once again bringing to bear the concept of integration rather that separating into separate parts by thinking in terms of dual. I submit that there is not a single physical pleasure that by its self will not become corrupt but if integrated as taught by the spirit will be enjoyed for eternity - See Psalms above.

The Traveler

I think you need to consider the difference between the mortal body and the resurrected body.

We were talking about mortality. You are giving references to after mortality. We can't apply what is intended to happen in immortality to mortality in this sense. The resurrected body is way different from the mortal body. Unless, again, one does not think the Fall was much of a fall.

I agree with what you are saying as it pertains to the resurrected body but that is not the situation we find ourselves in right now.

When one takes a final exam with a question that reads something like; "Johnny leaps from a 40 story building, he pulls the rip cord from his parachute after passing 10 floors. How fast is he going at the point of pulling the rip cord?" One would not take it to mean that there is actually a person named Johnny who leaps from 40 story buildings. Nor would one assume that they will ever in their future life expect to need to calculate the exact same situation - a guy named Johnny jumping from a 40 story building, even though it may be a good test question for a basic physics class. It has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with giving a test.

Likewise, this life is a test. It is not intended to be an exact road map for the eternities. It is a preparatory state. It, therefore, does not include all the parameters needed for the fullness, for perfection, in the same way a final exam does not contain all the information learned in the class. Our mortal body does not have a completeness of all the parts needed for integration. It is a body that allows for separation, to be a dual being, for testing purposes. Like a driving school car that has two steering wheels, this life is a test to see who we let drive the car, our spirit or the drives from the body itself (carnality). If we pass the test well, then we will get the "car" with the single steering wheel.

[Traveler]

I think you need to consider the difference between the mortal body and the resurrected body.

We were talking about mortality. You are giving references to after mortality. We can't apply what is intended to happen in immortality to mortality in this sense. The resurrected body is way different from the mortal body. Unless, again, one does not think the Fall was much of a fall.

I agree with what you are saying as it pertains to the resurrected body but that is not the situation we find ourselves in right now.

When one takes a final exam with a question that reads something like; "Johnny leaps from a 40 story building, he pulls the rip cord from his parachute after passing 10 floors. How fast is he going at the point of pulling the rip cord?" One would not take it to mean that there is actually a person named Johnny who leaps from 40 story buildings. Nor would one assume that they will ever in their future life expect to need to calculate the exact same situation - a guy named Johnny jumping from a 40 story building, even though it may be a good test question for a basic physics class. It has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with giving a test.

Likewise, this life is a test. It is not intended to be an exact road map for the eternities. It is a preparatory state. It, therefore, does not include all the parameters needed for the fullness, for perfection, in the same way a final exam does not contain all the information learned in the class. Our mortal body does not have a completeness of all the parts needed for integration. It is a body that allows for separation, to be a dual being, for testing purposes. Like a driving school car that has two steering wheels, this life is a test to see who we let drive the car, our spirit or the drives from the body itself (carnality). If we pass the test well, then we will get the "car" with the single steering wheel.

I think the purpose of this life is not so different from our eternal life (even a type and shadow of such things) and that purpose includes experience integrating the physical with the spiritual. I honestly believe that trying to force and maintain a separation of the two will not result in joy. Anyway that is both my experience and my understanding of scripture. Bringing the two together and integrating the spiritual and physical like at the birth of a child - I have experienced the greatest joy in the mortal life - that I believe was created and planned for our joy and happiness. Yes, joy in the eternities but also in the here and now. I believe this bringing together of the spiritual and the physical is what is termed in scripture as an awakening.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think the purpose of this life is not so different from our eternal life (even a type and shadow of such things) and that purpose includes experience integrating the physical with the spiritual. I honestly believe that trying to force and maintain a separation of the two will not result in joy. Anyway that is both my experience and my understanding of scripture. Bringing the two together and integrating the spiritual and physical like at the birth of a child - I have experienced the greatest joy in the mortal life - that I believe was created and planned for our joy and happiness. Yes, joy in the eternities but also in the here and now. I believe this bringing together of the spiritual and the physical is what is termed in scripture as an awakening.

The Traveler

I think what you are describing is mastery over the physical but maybe that is just semantics.

I don't think in any of my discussion I mentioned trying to force a "separation" of the two. They are separate, that is a doctrinal fact, at least for this life. The issue is which one of the two masters we follow. We can't serve two masters though, even as much as you would like it to be that way. The harmony comes when the spiritual influence supersedes the physical drives. It is a matter of allowing us to show where our treasure, where our heart's desire lies. Is it with carnal pursuits or spiritual ones, and to what degree. While here, it often is not an all or nothing thing. Understanding where the drive comes from (and maybe that is what you are calling "forcing the separation") allows us to make a correct decision between carnal and spiritual drives. If it is all one, then one does not have the ability to discern.

“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” (Rom. 8:5–6.)

Paul taught over and over again that it is important to be spiritually minded over being carnally minded. He didn't say we should be 50-50% minded; 1 Corinthains 2: "14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

Jesus taught this principle to Martha and Mary, representing the perspective of carnally minded verses spiritually minded; “And a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.

“And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus’ feet, and heard his word.

“But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

“And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

“But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.” (Luke 10:38–42.)

I think it is hard to argue against Jesus' statement "one thing is needful." It isn't forcing a separation but making a choice of the heart, a statement of where the heart is, carnal vs. spiritual pursuits. Martha had a hard time seeing the difference between the two - maybe she thought there was no difference.