The Fall – Spiritual and Physical

[Traveler]

The only "man" around that would qualify as a "man" were Adam and Eve, unless you are trying to say that we all had paradisical bodies given to each of us and put into a "garden of Eden" with the choice in front of us.  But I think you are right that we all were affeted by Adam's transgression as we were all destined to come to this world.  I don't think that has to translate into an issue that it had immediate effect.  If we were not in the presence of God before coming here but after Adam's trangression, where were we?  We couldn't be spiritually dead and in the presence of God at the same time.

 

Romans 5: "14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s ^atransgression, who is the ^bfigure of him that was to come.

 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by ^aone man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of ^agrace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"

 

I as suggesting that because of the fall of Adam (also known as the fall of man – not just by me but throughout scripture as well) that we (the spirits of man) were all removed from the presents of our Father and that Jesus became our Mediator with the Father and the only Suzerain L-rd (G-d) to the fallen (See Job 1:6).

[Seminarysnoozer]

I as suggesting that because of the fall of Adam (also known as the fall of man – not just by me but throughout scripture as well) that we (the spirits of man) were all removed from the presents of our Father and that Jesus became our Mediator with the Father and the only Suzerain L-rd (G-d) to the fallen (See Job 1:6).

If we believe in the second article of Faith; " 2 We believe that men will be ^apunished for their ^bown sins, and not for ^cAdam’s transgression."  How is it that all men were removed from the presence of our Father with Adam's trangression?  (That would have to include Christ and the Holy Ghost, by the way).

[Traveler]

If we believe in the second article of Faith; " 2 We believe that men will be ^apunished for their ^bown sins, and not for ^cAdam’s transgression."  How is it that all men were removed from the presence of our Father with Adam's trangression?  (That would have to include Christ and the Holy Ghost, by the way).

 

It was according to the Plan of Salvation.  It was part of our agency and choice exercised in the pre-existence.  The obvious caveat to the second Article of Faith is that we believe that the justice of G-d demands that we all are responsible for our own choices and not anyone else’s.  All that I am suggestion is rational consideration that the fall of Adam is symbolic of the fall of all men that would participate in mortality.  

 

BTW are you suggesting from your question that you believe that the fall had no immediate implications on the role and destiny of Christ and the Holy Ghost?   Or that neither Christ nor the Holy Ghost had any plans or participated in any possibilities that would come to be because of the fall? 

 

It is my understanding that the fall caused immediate changes that made possible things (both short term and eternally) for everyone involved.   I see no reason to assume any change for anyone that was not in some way involved – and that the change experienced by each involved was in direct relationship to their involvement.  That is my understanding of the full intent of the 2^nd Article of Faith.  Do you have a different understanding?

[Seminarysnoozer]

It was according to the Plan of Salvation.  It was part of our agency and choice exercised in the pre-existence.  The obvious caveat to the second Article of Faith is that we believe that the justice of G-d demands that we all are responsible for our own choices and not anyone else’s.  All that I am suggestion is rational consideration that the fall of Adam is symbolic of the fall of all men that would participate in mortality.  

 

BTW are you suggesting from your question that you believe that the fall had no immediate implications on the role and destiny of Christ and the Holy Ghost?   Or that neither Christ nor the Holy Ghost had any plans or participated in any possibilities that would come to be because of the fall? 

 

It is my understanding that the fall caused immediate changes that made possible things (both short term and eternally) for everyone involved.   I see no reason to assume any change for anyone that was not in some way involved – and that the change experienced by each involved was in direct relationship to their involvement.  That is my understanding of the full intent of the 2^nd Article of Faith.  Do you have a different understanding?

Yes I do.  Either Adam fell that men might be or not.  He didn't fall so that some men might be but if they chose not to then they won't be.  That is not what the scripture and our understanding states. 

 

Also, you are missing some of the picture if you suggest that.  Bruce R. McConkie; "This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world. That death would be Adam’s gift to man, and, then, the gift of God would be eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

 

In order to Fall, man had to first be created in a form that could fall, in a paradisical form.  If we were all formed in that way first then we do not have earthly parents and the whole population would have to exist within the Garden of Eden prior to the Fall.  As Bruce R. McConkie stated, procreation had not yet entered into the world.  So, we all would have had to be created in a paradisical form.  Romans 5: " 12 Wherefore, as by one man ^asin entered into the world, and ^bdeath by sin; and so ^cdeath passed upon all men, for that all have ^dsinned:" 

2 Nephi 2; " 22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

 23 And they would have had no ^achildren;"  So, while in the paradisical state that was created so it could Fall, they had no children.  If you believe we individually fell then we could not be children of Adam and Eve, we would have all had created bodies without earthly parents.  Is that what you believe?

 

Why is it that you can accept the idea that one man can save and yet one man cannot bring about the Fall as it is stated in Romans 5?

 

Also, the Fall of Adam is a movement downward and forward and onward as stated by Bruce R. McConkie.  If this is a movement forward, towards being like God, how can that result in Spiritual Corruption? 

 

There is no need for the Fall of Adam to be symbolic of individual falls anymore than it would be symbolic to have a single Savior that represents each of us saving ourselves. If you believe that a single Savior can save all then it is not irrational to believe that a single person can bring about the changes of the Fall from a paradisical state to mortality.  As part of the first estate test we all agreed that we would enter mortality to recieve a body and to undergo a test to see if we would do the things asked of us - a second estate test.  There was no transgression in the acceptance.  We did not fall as part of the acceptance that occured in the War in Heaven and the first estate test even though we accepted the plan God gave to us to enter mortality.  To enter mortality was God's plan, not ours.  That in no way should trigger spiritual corruption. Moving "forward and onward" should not trigger spiritual corruption.

 

Spiritual corruption requires being carnally minded.  We did not know good from evil until entering mortality and making a choice between being spiritually minded versus carnally minded.  The only way we could be spiritually corrupted upon entering this world is if we somehow were exposed to a carnal mind prior to coming here.  In other words, we would have had to have a corrupted body first.  We don't believe in reincarnation, that didn't happen.

 

Romans 8; " 5 For they that are after the flesh do ^amind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

 6 For to be ^acarnally minded is ^bdeath; but to be ^cspiritually minded is life and ^dpeace.

 7 Because the ^acarnal mind is ^benmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 8 So then they that are ^ain the flesh cannot please God."

 

Before our mortal birth we were spirits, we were spiritually minded which is life, not death.  One has to be "in the flesh" to become corrupted.  We did not enter this world corrupted.  We were not "in the flesh" (the carnal type) before birth here.

 

If we believe that Christ' atonement allows for children to have special protection and remain innocent and pure and we believe that we are all born with the light of Christ and we believe that the corrupted body is made perfect upon resurrection for all, how does it disrupt any aspect of the gospel if our spirits enter this world pure and innocent?  I am not seeing how it affects the gospel doctrine in any way and why you are so insistent that we are all evil by spiritual nature?  We are children of God, we matured as spirits along the path towards becoming like God as far as we could as spirits.  Our spirits were 100% along the pathway towards becoming like God when we entered this life.  Specifically tell me how it would change the gospel doctrine in any way if children receive special protection until the age of accountability in such a way that their spirits remain in a pure and uncorrupted state? This was done through a Savior and so a Savior was needed for them as well, so that is not the issue.  What is it then?

[Traveler]

Yes I do.  Either Adam fell that men might be or not.  He didn't fall so that some men might be but if they chose not to then they won't be.  That is not what the scripture and our understanding states. 

 

Also, you are missing some of the picture if you suggest that.  Bruce R. McConkie; "This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world. That death would be Adam’s gift to man, and, then, the gift of God would be eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

 

In order to Fall, man had to first be created in a form that could fall, in a paradisical form.  If we were all formed in that way first then we do not have earthly parents and the whole population would have to exist within the Garden of Eden prior to the Fall.  As Bruce R. McConkie stated, procreation had not yet entered into the world.  So, we all would have had to be created in a paradisical form.  Romans 5: " 12 Wherefore, as by one man ^asin entered into the world, and ^bdeath by sin; and so ^cdeath passed upon all men, for that all have ^dsinned:" 

2 Nephi 2; " 22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

 23 And they would have had no ^achildren;"  So, while in the paradisical state that was created so it could Fall, they had no children.  If you believe we individually fell then we could not be children of Adam and Eve, we would have all had created bodies without earthly parents.  Is that what you believe?

 

Why is it that you can accept the idea that one man can save and yet one man cannot bring about the Fall as it is stated in Romans 5?

 

Also, the Fall of Adam is a movement downward and forward and onward as stated by Bruce R. McConkie.  If this is a movement forward, towards being like God, how can that result in Spiritual Corruption? 

 

There is no need for the Fall of Adam to be symbolic of individual falls anymore than it would be symbolic to have a single Savior that represents each of us saving ourselves. If you believe that a single Savior can save all then it is not irrational to believe that a single person can bring about the changes of the Fall from a paradisical state to mortality.  As part of the first estate test we all agreed that we would enter mortality to recieve a body and to undergo a test to see if we would do the things asked of us - a second estate test.  There was no transgression in the acceptance.  We did not fall as part of the acceptance that occured in the War in Heaven and the first estate test even though we accepted the plan God gave to us to enter mortality.  To enter mortality was God's plan, not ours.  That in no way should trigger spiritual corruption. Moving "forward and onward" should not trigger spiritual corruption.

 

Spiritual corruption requires being carnally minded.  We did not know good from evil until entering mortality and making a choice between being spiritually minded versus carnally minded.  The only way we could be spiritually corrupted upon entering this world is if we somehow were exposed to a carnal mind prior to coming here.  In other words, we would have had to have a corrupted body first.  We don't believe in reincarnation, that didn't happen.

 

Romans 8; " 5 For they that are after the flesh do ^amind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

 6 For to be ^acarnally minded is ^bdeath; but to be ^cspiritually minded is life and ^dpeace.

 7 Because the ^acarnal mind is ^benmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 8 So then they that are ^ain the flesh cannot please God."

 

Before our mortal birth we were spirits, we were spiritually minded which is life, not death.  One has to be "in the flesh" to become corrupted.  We did not enter this world corrupted.  We were not "in the flesh" (the carnal type) before birth here.

 

If we believe that Christ' atonement allows for children to have special protection and remain innocent and pure and we believe that we are all born with the light of Christ and we believe that the corrupted body is made perfect upon resurrection for all, how does it disrupt any aspect of the gospel if our spirits enter this world pure and innocent?  I am not seeing how it affects the gospel doctrine in any way and why you are so insistent that we are all evil by spiritual nature?  We are children of God, we matured as spirits along the path towards becoming like God as far as we could as spirits.  Our spirits were 100% along the pathway towards becoming like God when we entered this life.  Specifically tell me how it would change the gospel doctrine in any way if children receive special protection until the age of accountability in such a way that their spirits remain in a pure and uncorrupted state? This was done through a Savior and so a Savior was needed for them as well, so that is not the issue.  What is it

 

Two questions:

 

1. Do you believe we should (gain anything) understand the scriptural epoch of Adam and Even in the garden by thinking of ourselves respectively Adam or Eve?  Or do you believe that no where in our pre-earth experience did we have anything at all to do with making a choice to gain the knowledge between good and evil.  What exactly was it that caused the fall?  Do you really think it was eating an apple in the garden?  or was the eating of fruit in any way symbolic?

 

2. Is there any spiritual reason to take a child to church before they reach the age of accountably?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Two questions:

 

1. Do you believe we should (gain anything) understand the scriptural epoch of Adam and Even in the garden by thinking of ourselves respectively Adam or Eve?  Or do you believe that no where in our pre-earth experience did we have anything at all to do with making a choice to gain the knowledge between good and evil.  What exactly was it that caused the fall?  Do you really think it was eating an apple in the garden?  or was the eating of fruit in any way symbolic?

 

2. Is there any spiritual reason to take a child to church before they reach the age of accountably?

I thought I already answered that but...

 

1. Yes, the story is symbolic but I do believe that God first created the body of Adam and Eve in a paradisical form so that innocence was maintained and yet it could fall.  I think we all made the decision to gain knowledge about good and evil as part of the first estate test.  Anyone who passed the first estate test has made that decision, by definition. At the time we made the decision we did not have a physical body as a third of the host of heaven didn't have to give one up as they made their decision to not gain knowledge of good and evil.

 

2. Yes, we should gain wisdom in our youth as counseled. To grow spiritually does not define spiritual corruption. Even Christ had to increase in stature amongst God and man. Was Christ spiritually corrupted as a child? No.

[Awakened]

Here is a question for you - when Adam and Eve fell - were they the only ones affected at that time?  Or did the fall of man change much more than just Adam and Eve?

 

My opinion is that the fall of man had an immediate effect on us all.

Actually, it changed the earth as well. Furthermore, it led to procreation. Spirits borne into this world inherit the same state Adam and Eve were in.

[Traveler]

Actually, it changed the earth as well. Furthermore, it led to procreation. Spirits borne into this world inherit the same state Adam and Eve were in.

My question was specific to spirits - thought I agree with other things you included.  Do you think it is possible that when Adam and Eve left the garden and all things changed on earth - is it possible that at the moment of the fall that the circumstance of all the spirits destined to come to earth experienced a change to their circumstance as well?

[Seminarysnoozer]

My question was specific to spirits - thought I agree with other things you included.  Do you think it is possible that when Adam and Eve left the garden and all things changed on earth - is it possible that at the moment of the fall that the circumstance of all the spirits destined to come to earth experienced a change to their circumstance as well?

Change to their circumstance or change to the spirit itself?  Their circumstance changed in that they were allowed to move forward and onward.  The way to become more like God had opened up.  Had they taken a step towards becoming more like God just because Adam and Eve Fell? No, so their spiritual make up had not changed yet, just the opportunity (I guess what you are calling circumstance) had changed.  It had changed in a positive way.

[Traveler]

Change to their circumstance or change to the spirit itself?  Their circumstance changed in that they were allowed to move forward and onward.  The way to become more like God had opened up.  Had they taken a step towards becoming more like God just because Adam and Eve Fell? No, so their spiritual make up had not changed yet, just the opportunity (I guess what you are calling circumstance) had changed.  It had changed in a positive way.

I was suggesting the possibility be considered that: like physical death had come to all the earth - that spiritual death; meaning  separation from the Father, took place in the pre-existence for those destined to come to earth.  There are scriptures that would seem to indicate that possibility.   That there was an immediate impact - not a far off, in some distant future, theoretical possible impact and that the plan having been implemented - that the point of no return had been crossed for all the spirits on the journey.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I was suggesting the possibility be considered that: like physical death had come to all the earth - that spiritual death; meaning  separation from the Father, took place in the pre-existence for those destined to come to earth.  There are scriptures that would seem to indicate that possibility.   That there was an immediate impact - not a far off, in some distant future, theoretical possible impact and that the plan having been implemented - that the point of no return had been crossed for all the spirits on the journey.

I am glad you brought this up because I guess I was assuming this was common knowledge but there is two spiritual deaths, the one caused by the fall brought on by all mankind but redeemed by the atonement, so its effects are not felt but puts us under the binding obligation to be obedient to our Lord and the second spiritual death which is caused by sin.   At least according to LDS.org, the spiritual death from the Fall is something experienced while we have life on Earth but everyone is redeemed from it.

 

LDS.org describes this well under spiritual death; "The Book of Mormon prophet Samuel taught, “All mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual” (Helaman 14:16). During our life on the earth, we are separated from God's presence. Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems everyone from this spiritual death. Samuel testified that the Savior's Resurrection “redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death. . . . Behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord” (Helaman 14:16-17). The prophet Lehi taught that because of the Atonement, “all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him” (2 Nephi 2:10).

Further spiritual death comes as a result of our own disobedience. Our sins make us unclean and unable to dwell in the presence of God (see Romans 3:23; Alma 12:12-16, 32; Helaman 14:18; Moses 6:57). Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ offers redemption from this spiritual death, but only when we exercise faith in Him, repent of our sins, and obey the principles and ordinances of the gospel (see Alma 13:27-30; Helaman 14:19; Articles of Faith 1:3)."

[Traveler]

I am glad you brought this up because I guess I was assuming this was common knowledge but there is two spiritual deaths, the one caused by the fall brought on by all mankind but redeemed by the atonement, so its effects are not felt but puts us under the binding obligation to be obedient to our Lord and the second spiritual death which is caused by sin.   At least according to LDS.org, the spiritual death from the Fall is something experienced while we have life on Earth but everyone is redeemed from it.

 

LDS.org describes this well under spiritual death; "The Book of Mormon prophet Samuel taught, “All mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual” (Helaman 14:16). During our life on the earth, we are separated from God's presence. Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems everyone from this spiritual death. Samuel testified that the Savior's Resurrection “redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death. . . . Behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord” (Helaman 14:16-17). The prophet Lehi taught that because of the Atonement, “all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him” (2 Nephi 2:10).

Further spiritual death comes as a result of our own disobedience. Our sins make us unclean and unable to dwell in the presence of God (see Romans 3:23; Alma 12:12-16, 32; Helaman 14:18; Moses 6:57). Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ offers redemption from this spiritual death, but only when we exercise faith in Him, repent of our sins, and obey the principles and ordinances of the gospel (see Alma 13:27-30; Helaman 14:19; Articles of Faith 1:3)."

 

To be clear the first or initial spiritual death is part of the fall.  I am suggesting that all those that participate in a mortal experience made a choice in the pre-existence to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil which brought about our mortal experience.  Two points – first is that the separation is from G-d the Father – this appears to possibly have taken place prior to and extending beyond our life on earth.  That is that when Adam and Eve left Eden that heaven was changed also and that the spirits left heaven in exile of the Father and that we will not return until we are taken back to the Father by Christ – who is the keeper of the way.

[Seminarysnoozer]

To be clear the first or initial spiritual death is part of the fall.  I am suggesting that all those that participate in a mortal experience made a choice in the pre-existence to partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil which brought about our mortal experience.  Two points – first is that the separation is from G-d the Father – this appears to possibly have taken place prior to and extending beyond our life on earth.  That is that when Adam and Eve left Eden that heaven was changed also and that the spirits left heaven in exile of the Father and that we will not return until we are taken back to the Father by Christ – who is the keeper of the way.

I am glad you pointed this out.  Thanks for being patient with the discussion. I agree with what you are saying here.

 

I think that decision was the first estate test. I don't think the effects of it, though, were really experienced until the spirit is placed in the body.

 

If my teenage daughter says, "I am planning on moving out when I am 21", I wouldn't immediately cut her off from all my support and escort her out the front door at that moment. Likewise, I think we all agreed with the plan of happiness and therefore agreed to "partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" well before all the events took place to make it happen.  I believe that Adam and Eve agreed to play their role before they were placed in the Garden of Eden and in fact I think they were called to do it. Just because we decide to do something doesn't mean it is already done.  Things were first created spiritually then physically.  We say we will and then we show that we do what we said we would.

 

I would also suggest that being made "alive in Christ" negates the effects of being separated from God the Father, at least to the point that it has no long lasting effects on our soul.  If we don't believe that then we lessen the power of Christ, He would not have saving power. We can be in the flesh without being of the flesh.  We are only "of" the flesh when we sin. Those that are whole need no physician, as is stated in Moroni 8.  I think it requires a testimony of Christ' saving power to believe that children are "whole" in Christ before the age of accountability.  Their spirits are not dead as they are alive in Christ even though they are separated from God the Father.  And that condition was from the "foundation of the world".  So, even if what you are saying is true, that we were immediately separated from the presence of God (even though it says only a third of the host of heaven were cast out) we were still held alive, untouched through the eternal effects of the atonement of Christ, we were kept alive, not spiritually dead as are all children until the age of accountability.

[Traveler]

I am glad you pointed this out.  Thanks for being patient with the discussion. I agree with what you are saying here.

 

I think that decision was the first estate test. I don't think the effects of it, though, were really experienced until the spirit is placed in the body.

 

If my teenage daughter says, "I am planning on moving out when I am 21", I wouldn't immediately cut her off from all my support and escort her out the front door at that moment. Likewise, I think we all agreed with the plan of happiness and therefore agreed to "partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" well before all the events took place to make it happen.  I believe that Adam and Eve agreed to play their role before they were placed in the Garden of Eden and in fact I think they were called to do it. Just because we decide to do something doesn't mean it is already done.  Things were first created spiritually then physically.  We say we will and then we show that we do what we said we would.

 

I would also suggest that being made "alive in Christ" negates the effects of being separated from God the Father, at least to the point that it has no long lasting effects on our soul.  If we don't believe that then we lessen the power of Christ, He would not have saving power. We can be in the flesh without being of the flesh.  We are only "of" the flesh when we sin. Those that are whole need no physician, as is stated in Moroni 8.  I think it requires a testimony of Christ' saving power to believe that children are "whole" in Christ before the age of accountability.  Their spirits are not dead as they are alive in Christ even though they are separated from God the Father.  And that condition was from the "foundation of the world".  So, even if what you are saying is true, that we were immediately separated from the presence of God (even though it says only a third of the host of heaven were cast out) we were still held alive, untouched through the eternal effects of the atonement of Christ, we were kept alive, not spiritually dead as are all children until the age of accountability.

 

I cannot express what your inputs have meant to me - they teach me things I have not otherwise considered.  Thank you for who you are.

 

I am not sure that we can make a choice that does not bring about a change and at the same time I do not believe that without a change that we have really made a meaningful choice.  Like your daughter - she may think about leaving at 21 but until she leaves she has not actually made the choice to leave.  Saying you will do something or thinking you will do something is not the same as the choice to do that something.

 

As to being alive in Christ or one with G-d:  I wish I could tell you that I have experience and I know about such things.  Though I have had some small insights I have always come to realize that I am yet a long way from my home of such things.  This is why I have the handle “The Traveler”.  It is because I am a stranger traveling in a strange place far from my home.  Though from time to time I find some comfort but then only to realize this is not where I belong.  If you or anyone has found our home – I am most interested.