Counterfeit Christ

[Guest Starsky]

Very insightful post PD. :)

[Snow]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 29 2004, 04:00 PM

Is anybody who disagrees with Snow automatically a lying and deceitful person.

Protestant Christianity has taught and believed for hundreds of years that you need to know who Jesus Christ really is before you can be Born Again and that there are false Jesus Christ's and false gospels in the world. These things were believed and taught long before the Mormon Church came into existence in 1830.

2 Corinthians 11:

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Those who are not biased bigoted Mormons will recognize a few things that are irrefutable facts:

1) The Mormon Church believes in a different Jesus Christ then mainstream Christianity:

a) Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan and is also the oldest spirit brother of all the people on earth.

B) Biblical Christians believe that Jesus Christ is without literal father and literal mother....that he is without beginning of days or end of life. Biblical Christians believe that Jesus Christ has always existed as a spirit and is the same Son of God that did dwell in the fire with Shadrach, Meeshach and Abindigo as he protected them from being killed by the flames in the fiery furnace. Biblical Christians believe that there was never a time that Jesus Christ did not exist and that he created all of us including Satan and that we are not the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.

In short Mormons believe in a different Jesus Christ then the one described in the Bible. This is what the majority of non-Mormon people recognize if they have done any studying of Mormon doctrine at all and this is also what the vast majority of mainstream Christianity recognizes.

Sweetie,

Don't be a silly goosey gander. Almost everybody on this message board disagrees with me and yet they don't feel the need to resort to dishonesty as a way to make their point. Agreeing with me or not is irrelevant. Honest is the relevant issue.

Look Steve, You say you used to be Mormon. You seem like a decent enough fellow in many regards. What on earth happened to you that caused you to become, well, you know, someone who employs dishonesty as a tool of preaching his gospel. I know you are not the only one. Doug, who most recently posted as Major Spike Thomas was the same. He was a Mormon, then got tweaked then started lying about the Church and putting it down. What happens that makes a man do that?

See here, this is an excellent example. In your last post you said: "Those who are not biased bigoted Mormons..." Really, who is that going to fool. You are a Mormon critic on a Mormon site, dishonestly attacking the Mormons and yet you call the target of your attack biased and bigoted. Think back to a time before whatever happened to make you a Mormon hatorator... would such convoluted thinking have made sense back then?

This is a sincere question. What happened to bring his kind of darkness into your heart?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 29 2004, 04:15 PM

Excuse me, it was a natonally published article rather than on a nationally published tv show. You are playing with semantics and trying to deflect attention away from what YOUR prophet has said.

Wrong Trident. It is not a matter of semantics. (look up the meaning of the word). It was a factual error or falsehood.

And wrong again. I didn't try and deflect what President Hinckley said. In fact I addressed it and correctly pointed out that he said that we don't worship the metaphysical and Greek philosophical Christ of creeds and councils but we do worship the Christ of the meridian of time, born of the virgin, he who atoned for mankind's sins.

Right. The Christ of the Old Testament, as you understand it, was but a prophecy. The Christ of the New Testament was the Son of God made flesh. That's who we are talking about.

Would you like me to show you a few examples of why the mormon Jesus is not like the Jesus of the bible?

No, but thank you for offering. If you try and make a point like that, we both know what will happen. I will have to correct it and then you will resent being corrected. Again, thanks for the offer.

You seem to be under the impression that our churches are structured the same. You are wrong... again.

No, sorry, wrong again. I am not under that impression.

I am very disappointed in how slow you are to understand simple things.

No, wrong again. You are not disappointed at all. Actually, I don't think you even believe that I am slow. you are just saying that I am slow as an insult, not because you are disappointed. Which begs the question... Do you think that you are qualified to insult my intelligence?

[broadway]

Those who are not biased bigoted Mormons will recognize a few things that are irrefutable facts:

1) The Mormon Church believes in a different Jesus Christ then mainstream Christianity:

a) Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan and is also the oldest spirit brother of all the people on earth.

Biblical Christians believe that Jesus Christ is without literal father and literal mother....that he is without beginning of days or end of life. Biblical Christians believe that Jesus Christ has always existed as a spirit and is the same Son of God that did dwell in the fire with Shadrach, Meeshach and Abindigo as he protected them from being killed by the flames in the fiery furnace. Biblical Christians believe that there was never a time that Jesus Christ did not exist and that he created all of us including Satan and that we are not the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.

Please excuse any newbie errors, as I am a newbie to this board.

In any case, I have been reading over Stephen's comments, and have noticed several common misunderstandings.

You will NOT find any scripture to back up a belief of a Heavenly Mother. Not one. It is a logical step to believe there is a Heavenly Mother based on our doctrine, including the fact that there is a Heavenly Father, and that God created man in their image (I use plural here because scripture in Genesis uses plural), male and female. These are not the only reasons, but this is a good start.

Also, it is the offical LDS belief that Heavenly Father created spirits, therefore all of us are children of God, and thus brothers/sisters. Yes, that includes, Satan and his followers. Show me any scripture that would refute this or show that it is blasphemous.

I also noted that there is some discussion about what is an opinion and what is offical beliefs, etc...The organization of our church is such that, while it allows for its members to have their own opinions, there is little left to debate. Most topics that could be discussed about Mormonism shouldn't have to be left up to opinion, and even then, one could look for the opinion of one who knows a bit more than the average Joe Mormon, such as an Elder from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, etc. I try to stay away from my personal view of things when talking to a non-member about our church so that I do not lead the non-member astray. It is a very thin line one has to walk on when giving one's opinion of something that isn't very talked about in scripture or by our Prophet. It is easy to use man's wisdom rather than God's wisdom as talked about in James (Chapter 5 I believe) So I would urge all members to avoid using his or her own opinion that isn't back up by scripture or our Prophet. There are too many non-members that could misunderstand the difference between offical doctrine and an opinion. We can all agree there is a BIG difference.

broadway

[Stephen]

This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) when, in speaking of pre-existence and the origin of man, they said that "man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father," that man is the "offspring of celestial parentage," and that "all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity." (Man: Origin and Destiny, pp. 348-355.)

The doctrine of a Heavenly Mother has also been addressed in many General Conference talks(I will give references if this is doubted). The doctrine of a Heavenly Mother is as much official LDS doctrine as the "Proclamation on the Family".

To say it is not LDS doctrine is major dishonesty on the part of members of the LDS Church. Something that I would expect from Snow, but not from the majority on this message board.

[Stephen]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 29 2004, 06:26 PM

Don't be a silly goosey gander. Almost everybody on this message board disagrees with me and yet they don't feel the need to resort to dishonesty as a way to make their point. Agreeing with me or not is irrelevant. Honest is the relevant issue.

Look Steve, You say you used to be Mormon. You seem like a decent enough fellow in many regards. What on earth happened to you that caused you to become, well, you know, someone who employs dishonesty as a tool of preaching his gospel. I know you are not the only one. Doug, who most recently posted as Major Spike Thomas was the same. He was a Mormon, then got tweaked then started lying about the Church and putting it down. What happens that makes a man do that?

See here, this is an excellent example. In your last post you said: "Those who are not biased bigoted Mormons..." Really, who is that going to fool. You are a Mormon critic on a Mormon site, dishonestly attacking the Mormons and yet you call the target of your attack biased and bigoted. Think back to a time before whatever happened to make you a Mormon hatorator... would such convoluted thinking have made sense back then?

This is a sincere question. What happened to bring his kind of darkness into your heart?

I am not resorting to dishonesty. You the infamous Mr. Snow have been nasty and mean-spirited to me since I came on this message board.....the only logical reason is your hatred for Born Again Christians in general has generated this bigotry that is so self-evident.

Listen......The Mormon Church believes that there was an Apostasy and that Jesus Christ's Church was lost from the earth for hundreds of years and that Joseph Smith had to restore Jesus Christ's Church back to the earth under the direction of God and that all other churches are corrupted, degenerate, lost and in darkness. This is official LDS doctrine and it is highly offensive to mainstream Christianity. So go whine to somebody else.

[Stephen]

by Elder Bruce R. McConkie

Implicit in the Christian verity that all men are the spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of an Eternal Mother. An exalted and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57) could not be a Father unless a Woman of like glory, perfection, and holiness was associated with him as a Mother. The begetting of children makes a man a father and a woman a mother whether we are dealing with man in his mortal or immortal state.

This glorious truth of celestial parentage, including specifically both a Father and a Mother, is heralded forth by song in one of the greatest of Latter-day Saint hymns. O My Father by Eliza R. Snow, written in 1843, during the lifetime of the Prophet, includes this teaching:

In the heavens are parents single? No; the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason, truth eternal, Tells me I've a Mother there.

When I leave this frail existence, When I lay this mortal by, Father, Mother, may I meet you In your royal courts on high?

Then, at length, when I've completed All you sent me forth to do, With your mutual approbation, Let me come and dwell with you.

Mortal persons who overcome all things and gain an ultimate exaltation will live eternally in the family unit and have spirit children, thus becoming Eternal Fathers and Eternal Mothers. (D. & C. 132:19-32.) Indeed, the formal pronouncement of the Church, issued by the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve, states: "So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring." (Man: His Origin and Destiny, p. 129.)

Mormon Doctrine, p.517

Copyright by Bookcraft

End Quote

[Guest Starsky]

A belief is different than a doctrine.

Principle is what doctrine is based upon. A Heavenly mother can be a truth without being a doctrine. One can belief in Her...without stating it as doctrine. That is what Eliza R. Snow and BRM were doing...stating a belief based upon reason...not doctrine.

The fact that we learn we will become like God and be Gods, having our own dominion ...does not dismantal any belief or reason. It doesn't make the belief of A God Mother....doctrine.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Stephen@Mar 30 2004, 10:00 AM

I am not resorting to dishonesty. You the infamous Mr. Snow have been nasty and mean-spirited to me since I came on this message board

Listen......The Mormon Church believes that there was an Apostasy and that Jesus Christ's Church was lost from the earth for hundreds of years and that Joseph Smith had to restore Jesus Christ's Church back to the earth under the direction of God and that all other churches are corrupted, degenerate, lost and in darkness. This is official LDS doctrine and it is highly offensive to mainstream Christianity. So go whine to somebody else.

Okay, Let's look at it your way Stephen.

For the sake of argument, lets suppose that you, as you say, are not resorting to dishonesty. Over the last half dozen topics we have covered, there has been one dishonest statement after another, I highlighted everyone I found but I may have missed a few.

How do you explain that? How are you not resorting to dishonesty if your posts are full of it?

-Is someone editing all your posting to include the falsehoods?

-Is there some semantical trick in the way that you are wording them?

-Are you not responsible for your own posts?

What?

.....the only logical reason is your hatred for Born Again Christians in general has generated this bigotry that is so self-evident.

Not true -(that's another falsehood - gotcha again) but nice try with the victim angle. You attack and demean Mormons and then it is our fault we object to it? Explain for the children how that works Stephen.

You say I have born-again Christians, yet I myself am a born-again Christian. Do I hate myself. My wife is a born-again and is her mother. Do I hate them? Please explain.

In point of fact, it is the antiMormons I think suck. Now it also so happens that most all religious antiMormons are from evangelical, fundamental type born-agains. Only in you little world does it mean that because a person dislikes macaroni and cheese, that they dislike all food.

Too bad Stephen, it don't work that way.