Earning Our Way To Heaven.

Cal · March 28, 2004

Don't mistake this post as raising the old Christian-Moromon debate on "works".

I am approaching this from the point of view of something I posted on another thread: It was this:

-If you stop and think about it for a minute, doesn't it sound a little (if not a lot) strange that by doing these little things we do; get baptized, live ethical lives (which most people do anyway), get married in the temple (instead of the city hall), and have lots of kids and raise them well (which lots of people do), and go to church a lot (which is what lots, if not most people in the world do).........we thereby "earn" this unspeakably fantastic reward of mansions and dominions and powers and opportunities for progression----rewards unavailable to anyone who doesn't do this stuff?

It's tantamount to saying that if I work at McDonalds for a day or two, I should be able to live in the Taj Majal or Hearst Castle, you name it, for the rest of my life. It's like, if I mow the White House lawn, I should be entitled to live in the White House for the rest of my life.

Think about it---the difference between what we LDS claim is our reward, is massively out of proportion to the quality and nature of the life we live compared to other well meaning, ethical, honest, caring and loving people--who simply don't want to believe some few doctrines that we do?

What logic dictates that such a distinction should amount to such a monumental difference in some hereafter?

Frankly, I can't imagine a God, who puts us all down here, gives us logical brains, provides almost no evidence of his existance, and the condemns to hell those that question who he might be or question even his existance, but gives a little consolation prize to good honest, ethical people, and rewards MORMONS with unspeakable riches for supposedly being SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE REST.

Are we REALLY that much better, just because we BELIEVE something others don't. I don't think any case can be made that we are MORALLY superior. Lots of people have just as good ethics, morals and values as mormons. Maybe some even better.

March 28, 2004

Where did you get such strange ideas?

It is by our hearts we are judged...and if our hearts are right...filled with charity (and I don't claim mine is just because I go to church, went on a mission, married in the temple...etc) and if we live by His Spirit of Truth and are following the premisis for all the greatest blessings...i.e.

D&C 121:

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

Moro. 10: 32-33

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Then we will gain such a reward....it isn't so much esoterical as you think...

Moro. 7: 47-48

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth cforever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true bfollowers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Christ is going to be the one standing at the entrance gate...and He won't be holding a clipboard with a check list...

It isn't going to the temple that gets you exalted...it is what you spiritually gained and matured from what you learned there....continually...through the Spirit.

It isn't your baptism...if you weren't worthy...but your baptism if you were worthy and experienced the baptism of fire as well...

It isn't only what you do on the outside...but how it changes you on the inside...that Christ will judge and reward by. And actually you will judge yourself ultimately....you will decide where you will end up...

D&C 88:

D&C 88: 40

40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.

If there are people who are not of this church who have increased their intelligence, wisdom, truth, virtue, light, mercy, justice, and judgment...through submitting themselves to Christ better than a Mormon...they will gain the higher kingdom...

Even those who have not embraced Christ knowingly are embracing Him...because all good things come from and through Christ...

Cal · March 28, 2004

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 28 2004, 11:28 AM
Where did you get such strange ideas?
It is by our hearts we are judged...and if our hearts are right...filled with charity (and I don't claim mine is just because I go to church, went on a mission, married in the temple...etc) and if we live by His Spirit of Truth and are following the premisis for all the greatest blessings...i.e.
D&C 121:
45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.
46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.
Moro. 10: 32-33
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
Then we will gain such a reward....it isn't so much esoterical as you think...
Moro. 7: 47-48
47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth cforever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true bfollowers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.
Christ is going to be the one standing at the entrance gate...and He won't be holding a clipboard with a check list...
It isn't going to the temple that gets you exalted...it is what you spiritually gained and matured from what you learned there....continually...through the Spirit.
It isn't your baptism...if you weren't worthy...but your baptism if you were worthy and experienced the baptism of fire as well...
It isn't only what you do on the outside...but how it changes you on the inside...that Christ will judge and reward by. And actually you will judge yourself ultimately....you will decide where you will end up...
D&C 88:
D&C 88: 40
40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.
If there are people who are not of this church who have increased their intelligence, wisdom, truth, virtue, light, mercy, justice, and judgment...through submitting themselves to Christ better than a Mormon...they will gain the higher kingdom...
Even those who have not embraced Christ knowingly are embracing Him...because all good things come from and through Christ...

Well, Peace, you didn't even come close to addressing my question, all you could say was "where do you get such ideas". At least I have a few of my OWN, and don't constantly revert to relying on the minds of others; but thank you for responding. :)
BTW--you totally misrepresent the teaching of the mormon church--you seem to imply that even non-mormons will inherit the CELESTIAL KINGDOM, which is this VASTLY SUPERIOR REWARD I am talking about. You know very well that what you have implied is NOT the teaching of the LDS church. Now you are being totally dishonest, just to defend a defenseless position.

March 28, 2004

Again...you didn't get the principles I placed before you...just because they were in the form of scripture. I did address your question perfectly.

Cal · March 28, 2004

You said: If there are people who are not of this church who have increased their intelligence, wisdom, truth, virtue, light, mercy, justice, and judgment...through submitting themselves to Christ better than a Mormon...they will gain the higher kingdom...

That is NOT what the LDS church teaches and you know it! NON-MORMONS can't get into the CELESTIAL kingdom no matter what they do, according to mormon teaching. YOu have to be at least mormon.

The fact that you can't see how incongruous and out of balance the "works" are with the "reward", and how little difference there actually is between clean living non-mormons and clean living mormons tells me that you really don't want to consider anything that disrupts your preconcieved notions of reality.

Non-mormons can be just as "spiritual" and "intune" with God as mormons. Just ask them. They are just as close to Jesus as you are. Yet, according to mormon doctrine, their reward is miniscule compared to ours, if they don't become mormon.

March 28, 2004

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 28 2004, 12:02 PM
You said: If there are people who are not of this church who have increased their intelligence, wisdom, truth, virtue, light, mercy, justice, and judgment...through submitting themselves to Christ better than a Mormon...they will gain the higher kingdom...
That is NOT what the LDS church teaches and you know it! NON-MORMONS can't get into the CELESTIAL kingdom no matter what they do, according to mormon teaching. YOu have to be at least mormon.
The fact that you can't see how incongruous and out of balance the "works" are with the "reward", and how little difference there actually is between clean living non-mormons and clean living mormons tells me that you really don't want to consider anything that disrupts your preconcieved notions of reality.
Non-mormons can be just as "spiritual" and "intune" with God as mormons. Just ask them. They are just as close to Jesus as you are. Yet, according to mormon doctrine, their reward is miniscule compared to ours, if they don't become mormon.

It is in the D&C and you can't get more Mormon doctrine than that!

AFDaw · March 28, 2004

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 28 2004, 12:02 PM
You said: If there are people who are not of this church who have increased their intelligence, wisdom, truth, virtue, light, mercy, justice, and judgment...through submitting themselves to Christ better than a Mormon...they will gain the higher kingdom...
That is NOT what the LDS church teaches and you know it! NON-MORMONS can't get into the CELESTIAL kingdom no matter what they do, according to mormon teaching. YOu have to be at least mormon.
The fact that you can't see how incongruous and out of balance the "works" are with the "reward", and how little difference there actually is between clean living non-mormons and clean living mormons tells me that you really don't want to consider anything that disrupts your preconcieved notions of reality.
Non-mormons can be just as "spiritual" and "intune" with God as mormons. Just ask them. They are just as close to Jesus as you are. Yet, according to mormon doctrine, their reward is miniscule compared to ours, if they don't become mormon.

First off, we do believe that non-Mormons will make it to the Celestial kingdom, at least in the sense you're thinking. We're doing the work for the dead, many of who probably are not "Mormon" but will accept the work and receive the Celestial Kingdom in doing so. However, in accepting the work does that make them "Mormon?" I dunno, but if you said it did, then that is how the statement "Only Mormon will make it to the Celestial Kingdom" is correct.

And I don't think it's we think that if we live a better life, we will get more. But we do believe that to whom much is given, much is required. Because of the knowledge that we have, we are held to higher standards. We don't believe that God will punish people for their ignorance. It's a double edge sword really. There are things that if I do are considered a sin simple because I have the knowledge they're wrong. Yet Jane Doe can do the same things and it not be held against her because she doesn't know them to be wrong.

Behunin · March 28, 2004

Originally posted by AFDaw@Mar 28 2004, 01:56 PM
And I don't think it's we think that if we live a better life, we will get more. But we do believe that to whom much is given, much is required. Because of the knowledge that we have, we are held to higher standards. We don't believe that God will punish people for their ignorance. It's a double edge sword really. There are things that if I do are considered a sin simple because I have the knowledge they're wrong. Yet Jane Doe can do the same things and it not be held against her because she doesn't know them to be wrong.

Very well stated.

Knowledge is more valuable than gold. It is something of value you can take with you to the spiritual world.

March 29, 2004

Cal brings up an interesting point.

The never-ending Protestant versus Catholic/Mormon faith/works argument lines up something like this: At one extreme, the charismatic Protestant preaches that if a person orally acknowledges Jesus as his personal savior, and truly believes, he's saved. At the other end, the argument is that while it is true that it is ultimately Christ's atonement that saves people, a person's acceptance of Christ involves more than a one-time oral commitment. To make a crude analogy, the charismatic Protestant says all you have to do is get married, figuratively speaking, to Christ, while the other end believes you have to get married and also stay married.

Cal's point was that the difference between a believing Mormon's lifestyle and that of a decent unbeliever is small -- and pales in the comparison between the eternal rewards each can expect.

I'd go even further. It may be that the difference between God's existence, and the existence of even the holiest of mortal men, dwarfs the difference between the lifestyle of the holy man and the wicked man. If that is true, then whether salvation is properly accepted by a one-time confession, or by a confession plus enduring to the end, almost seems like a quibble. It's like arguing whether the accepted tolerance for mercury in the atmosphere will be 30 parts per billion, or 25 -- the kind of thing that makes no practical difference on anything, unless it's an election year.

But notwithstanding that the difference between a righteous man and God is much greater than the difference between the righteous man and the wicked man, the gospel does teach that the latter difference is more important. Why is that? I think it's because human existence isn't analogous to a line -- an x axis -- with God at point 0, the righteous man at 1 billion, and the wicked man at 1 billion and four. I think all people are effectively standing at the same point, far removed from God's existence, and what makes the eternal difference is which way they are facing. If a person is facing directly towards God's existence, no matter how far he may be, if you extend a really long line from his position, it will reach God. On the other hand, if a person is facing only a few degrees off true, the end point of the really long line may be as far from God as was the original position.

And I thought I'd never use high school geometry again!

This is consistent with Dallin Oaks' conference talk, to the effect that what we believe is less important than what we do, and what we do is less important than what we become. Ultimately, the only one that can put us on the exact path to God is God himself.

March 29, 2004

David O once stated that you live what you believe....'truly' believe.

Like many may say they believe seat belts save lives....but don't buckle up....others say they believe in seat belts and use them every time and insist all passengers use them as well..

Which 'truly' believes?

IOWs....the belief alone...is what? 'words'..

'works' however, doesn't always 'prove' belief....there are those who do it for show...such as the pharasee.

As always...the Lord is the final judge....on both works and belief...but in the 'true' belief, there must be works...that follow.

porterrockwell · March 29, 2004

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 29 2004, 12:39 PM
David O once stated that you live what you believe....'truly' believe.
Like many may say they believe seat belts save lives....but don't buckle up....others say they believe in seat belts and use them every time and insist all passengers use them as well..
Which 'truly' believes?
IOWs....the belief alone...is what? 'words'..
'works' however, doesn't always 'prove' belief....there are those who do it for show...such as the pharasee.
As always...the Lord is the final judge....on both works and belief...but in the 'true' belief, there must be works...that follow.

you sure is smaht purdy lady

broadway · March 30, 2004

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 28 2004, 01:02 PM
You said: If there are people who are not of this church who have increased their intelligence, wisdom, truth, virtue, light, mercy, justice, and judgment...through submitting themselves to Christ better than a Mormon...they will gain the higher kingdom...
That is NOT what the LDS church teaches and you know it! NON-MORMONS can't get into the CELESTIAL kingdom no matter what they do, according to mormon teaching. YOu have to be at least mormon.
The fact that you can't see how incongruous and out of balance the "works" are with the "reward", and how little difference there actually is between clean living non-mormons and clean living mormons tells me that you really don't want to consider anything that disrupts your preconcieved notions of reality.
Non-mormons can be just as "spiritual" and "intune" with God as mormons. Just ask them. They are just as close to Jesus as you are. Yet, according to mormon doctrine, their reward is miniscule compared to ours, if they don't become mormon.

Actually, non-members CAN get to the celestial kingdom. The only two ways I can think to do this is to die before 8 or to have a mental disability that would disable one to comprehend the difference between right and wrong.

Furthermore, the works vs grace issue is a non-issue really. It is LDS doctrine that without the grace of God and Jesus's atonement, no one would have been able to get back to Heavenly Father. It is because of this grace that we are able to work out our salvation. I know you are familiar enough with the scriptures to be able to pull out a few that talk about faith and works, etc. They are both required.

What good is faith if one doesn't use it? If one had faith, it would show. If it doesn't show, then one doesn't have faith. A tree is known by its fruit. That is why it is a non-issue. Anyone who believes the faith-only doctrine and has faith, should also, by the same scriptures, know that he should also be helping our fellow man. Otherwise his faith is non-existant and he wouldn't be able to get back to Heavenly Father at all.

So in order to inherit the kingdom of God, one needs both.

broadway

broadway · March 30, 2004

And I don't think it's we think that if we live a better life, we will get more. But we do believe that to whom much is given, much is required. Because of the knowledge that we have, we are held to higher standards. We don't believe that God will punish people for their ignorance. It's a double edge sword really. There are things that if I do are considered a sin simple because I have the knowledge they're wrong. Yet Jane Doe can do the same things and it not be held against her because she doesn't know them to be wrong.

Alma 29:5

"Yea, and I know that good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless; but he that knoweth good and evil, to him it is given according to his desires, whether he desireth good or evil, life or death, joy or remorse of conscience"

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