A person cannot be happy without....

[james12]

Although I agree w/most of what you wrote, I couldn't disagree more than with the part in bold. All of our experiences as humans, including sorrow, can be used to lift us up to sainthood.  Of the thousands of saints throughout history, sorrow was always a part of their life, b/c they were all human, there is no way to avoid sorrow in this life.  However, it's how Saints have chosen to handle sorrow, that have made them Saints.

Please remember that I did not say it, Brigham Young did. The question at hand is, what did he mean by it? Was Brigham Young so out of touch that he did not realize that difficulties are part of life? Did he not see that sorrow was part of our experience and "cannot be avoided"? Or is there something more that he saw that others did not? Here is an important point, "sorrow to you can exist only in your own hearts". I submit that until external circumstances do not effect our peace of mind we will forever be unhappy. 

I guess as a simple example, Jesus wasn't exaclty joyful while he was being scourged and crucified.  His mother, Mary, wasn't exactly joyful & happy as she watched her son carry his cross and continually fall.  I'm sure those weren't happy tears falling from her eyes as He was crucified and hung their dying for 3 hours.  But she trusted in God, knowing that He would make good come of this unhappy time, even if she didn't quite understand what that was yet.  Little did any of them know (Apostles and other followers), that it was through this great sorrowful trial and death, that the greatest graces would flow to all.  That this is what is meant to love and trust in God, our Father, without holding anything back, even if it's our very life.  What makes a saint, a Saint, is being able to lift up our sorrows (when they come) to God, and trust in Him that good will come of it, even if we don't understand what good that could be yet.  So when something sorrowful happens to us (b/c it will), rather than force joy and happiness out of ourselves to try and ignore it, we should recognize it for what it is, and offer it to God, so that we are made stronger through our trials.  It is through these that we are refined!

The absence of sorrow is not necessarily happiness. Yes there are many moments of happiness and joy but there are times when we simply feel peace. Peace is the promise of the gospel in this life, not always happiness. In the midst of the most difficult circumstances of this life a true Saint can look deep in his or her heart and they will not find sorrow, they will find a deep and inviting peace. Yes, in the world the storms will rage but in our hearts there will be a calm. To quote Elder Holland, "There certainly can and will be plenty of external difficulties in life. Nevertheless the soul that comes unto Christ dwells within a personal fortress, a veritable palace of perfect peace" ("Come Unto Me", BYU Fireside, March 2, 1997, italics mine). 

 

Why are you so quick to concede that we must feel sorrow in this life? The gospel over and over again promises peace and rest. Of course we cannot suppose this means that all external challenges are over. But when will we learn that external difficulties do not determine our inner state? Let me give you Elder Holland one more time. He first quotes Christ's words, "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you; not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, either let it be afraid." He then offers this: 

I submit to you that may be one of the Savior’s commandments that is, even in the hearts of otherwise faithful Latter-day Saints, almost universally disobeyed; and yet I wonder whether our resistance to this invitation could be any more grievous to the Lord’s merciful heart. (ibid)

 

The peace of the Lord dwells in the hearts of the humble and righteous. It is simply a fact. Sorry to throw out another quote, but read President Monson's words:

How might we have joy in our lives, despite all that we may face? Again from the scriptures: “Wherefore, be of good cheer, and do not fear, for I the Lord am with you, and will stand by you. (Be of Good Cheer, GC April 2009)

 Did you catch it? He will stand buy us, he is with us! What challenge can we not face. 

 

Just last week, a 2nd grade girl from my kids school, died in a car accident.  Just terrible for such a young life to be lost so suddenly.  Her family is LDS, and I would bet that they would disagree w/this statement as well, b/c I'm sure their hearts are full of sorrow right now at the loss of their daughter, yet they are faithful mormons.  Can they no longer be saints b/c of their deep sorrow and grief?  Should they try to hide their sorrow and joyfully move on with their life?  What will make them saints is how they handle this sorrow, whether allowing it to refine them as they turn to God for comfort & healing, or allowing it to make them bitter and angry, blaming God for not saving their daughter.  Our sorrows are our greatest tests in life. 

    

So I wouldn't consider anyone a Saint, unless they've experienced sorrow in their life, and overcame it through their greater love of God.

Again, we definitely can face difficult circumstances but we do not need to feel sorrow in our hearts. Nor do we need to be troubled or worried. This truth is at the very heart of the gospel. When all these difficult external circumstances surround us we can find peace. And when we find this peace we will have entered into the rest of the Lord. A place reserved for the faithful. A place where all worries and all sorrows cannot enter in.

[james12]

I wanted to add some side comments that are still on point with the thread.

 

Cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) is counseling's leading umbrella therapy (meaning there are many cognitive-based therapies that fall under the CBT umbrella). In the early 1990's, more than 80% of therapists considered themselves to be some kind of cognitive-based therapist. The umbrella itself also has some of the worst forms of therapy out there, despite their "empirical" support.

 

The most basic premise of CBT is this: all emotion is caused by thought; if you feel something, it's because a thought first caused it. So, the most common/basic way to practice CBT is challenge cognitive distortions (thinking errors), negative thinking, and irrational/negative core beliefs. By challenging them, clients learn how to "reframe" their negative and/or distorted thoughts into something more positive and "logical."

 

...

I agree with every user's comment I've quoted in this post. That's one reason why I hate CBT with a dire passion and have out right attacked it in my scholarship. Fortunately, I am not the only scholar who has.

If you disagree that all emotion is caused by thought, where then do you believe it comes from? 

[Urstadt]

If you disagree that all emotion is caused by thought, where then do you believe it comes from?

Emotion is a proto-response to the environment. It's job is to tell us the moral worth of something. Basically, it serves as an affective awareness for us.

Check out Jonathan Haidt, Jaak Panskepp, and Charles Taylor.

[james12]

Emotion is a proto-response to the environment. It's job is to tell us the moral worth of something. Basically, it serves as an affective awareness for us.

Check out Jonathan Haidt, Jaak Panskepp, and Charles Taylor.

So something like emotional Darwinism? As we do what is best for society as a whole our sense of fulfillment and happiness increases and this awareness is passed to the next generation?

[srmaher]

I wanted to add some side comments that are still on point with the thread.

 

Cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) is counseling's leading umbrella therapy (meaning there are many cognitive-based therapies that fall under the CBT umbrella). In the early 1990's, more than 80% of therapists considered themselves to be some kind of cognitive-based therapist. The umbrella itself also has some of the worst forms of therapy out there, despite their "empirical" support.

 

The most basic premise of CBT is this: all emotion is caused by thought; if you feel something, it's because a thought first caused it. So, the most common/basic way to practice CBT is challenge cognitive distortions (thinking errors), negative thinking, and irrational/negative core beliefs. By challenging them, clients learn how to "reframe" their negative and/or distorted thoughts into something more positive and "logical."

 

I kid no one on here when I say that I have seen therapists first hand tell clients that they can be happy without one or more of the following, or challenge clients' "cognitive distortion" when they say they need one or more of the following to be happy:

 

 

 

 

 

Now I want to demonstrate what a CBT therapist might say to four comments on this thread:

 

 

A CBT therapist would call this belief "all-or-nothing" thinking, "black-and-white" thinking, or "arbitrary inference" (jumping to conclusions). They would then prompt you to reframe this cognitive distortion. The reason: that kind of thinking challenges the basic premise of CBT: your thoughts alone can change your emotions from sad to happy.

 

 

A CBT therapist is going to question the effects of these "constraints" on your emotional state and prompt you to challenge your thinking by helping you to see that these commandments restrict your access to unlimited happiness.

 

 

A CBT therapist might say here that you should only worry about yourself, that you are the sole source of happiness. On the other hand, a CBT therapist may agree with this mind set so long as the therapist approves of who you choose and what the person you choose is doing.

 

 

The job of the CBT therapist is to look for incongruent thoughts. A comment like this will throw flags up and sounds alarms in a CBT therapist's mind. They will help you to challenge this belief by helping you "logically" work out that the two thoughts are contradictory and that entertaining them both is restricting your overall happiness.

---------------------------------------------

 

I agree with every user's comment I've quoted in this post. That's one reason why I hate CBT with a dire passion and have out right attacked it in my scholarship. Fortunately, I am not the only scholar who has.

 

But, here's the catch I would like to share with all who are interested: CBT is considered an evidenced-based practice. Meaning, it's "scientifically" proven to work. The upshot: psychology and science have proven everyone of you wrong.

 

And to that, I say:

 

I liked your thoughts about CBT. Are you a therapist? Which theory to you like? I am currently working on my masters in counseling so I would love to hear what you have to say. 

[Urstadt]

So something like emotional Darwinism? As we do what is best for society as a whole our sense of fulfillment and happiness increases and this awareness is passed to the next generation?

That's taking it a little further than I intended in my brief, not-very-descriptive post (meaning, that because I wasn't too descriptive, the misunderstanding is on me and not you). My previous two posts were not so much about what causes happiness as they were to say the our discussion on this thread would be considered wrong by CBT and evidence-based research. Paradoxically, I am making that point to actually prove CBT wrong.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Urstadt

[faith4]

Please remember that I did not say it, Brigham Young did. The question at hand is, what did he mean by it? Was Brigham Young so out of touch that he did not realize that difficulties are part of life? Did he not see that sorrow was part of our experience and "cannot be avoided"? Or is there something more that he saw that others did not? Here is an important point, "sorrow to you can exist only in your own hearts". I submit that until external circumstances do not effect our peace of mind we will forever be unhappy. 

The absence of sorrow is not necessarily happiness. Yes there are many moments of happiness and joy but there are times when we simply feel peace. Peace is the promise of the gospel in this life, not always happiness. In the midst of the most difficult circumstances of this life a true Saint can look deep in his or her heart and they will not find sorrow, they will find a deep and inviting peace. Yes, in the world the storms will rage but in our hearts there will be a calm. To quote Elder Holland, "There certainly can and will be plenty of external difficulties in life. Nevertheless the soul that comes unto Christ dwells within a personal fortress, a veritable palace of perfect peace" ("Come Unto Me", BYU Fireside, March 2, 1997, italics mine). 

 

Why are you so quick to concede that we must feel sorrow in this life? The gospel over and over again promises peace and rest. Of course we cannot suppose this means that all external challenges are over. But when will we learn that external difficulties do not determine our inner state? Let me give you Elder Holland one more time. He first quotes Christ's words, "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you; not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, either let it be afraid." He then offers this: 

 

The peace of the Lord dwells in the hearts of the humble and righteous. It is simply a fact. Sorry to throw out another quote, but read President Monson's words:

 Did you catch it? He will stand buy us, he is with us! What challenge can we not face. 

 

Again, we definitely can face difficult circumstances but we do not need to feel sorrow in our hearts. Nor do we need to be troubled or worried. This truth is at the very heart of the gospel. When all these difficult external circumstances surround us we can find peace. And when we find this peace we will have entered into the rest of the Lord. A place reserved for the faithful. A place where all worries and all sorrows cannot enter in.

 

Your reply describes what I meant by using our sorrows to lift us up to sainthood.  By having a deep and abiding faith, sorrow can never overcome us, and it is through this means of turning to God in our times of need, that we are refined and made stronger in our faith.  And yes, I realize Young said this, not you :)

 

But sorrow does exist, and it can exist in our hearts, especially when a child dies suddenly.  Although I have faith, and I'm sure her parents and family have a deep faith, it still hurts, and it will take a while for the family to grieve through their sorrow.  I'm sure this Chistmas will be very difficult, as will her birthday, which according to the obituary, was to be this October.  The possibility for sorrow to overcome any one of her family members is real, especially if an extended family member does not believe in God.  But the good that God can make from this, is to bring those non-practicing members, into belief.  We never know what will happen, but with faith, we know that we can always turn to our Father, and trust in Him.  (I would also mention that many of the children at school who knew her, are having difficulty with her death, for some, this is the first time someone they knew died, especially a friend.  Is this not sorrow for these children who are trying to cope now with the reality of death?)

 

Joy is wonderful, and with faith, can fill our lives with light, but sorrowful events will happen, and it is up to us to accept this, and to deepen our faith so that when these things do happen, we are more prepared to turn to our Father and allow Him to comfort us.  I guess I just didn't agree w/how Young made that statement, that you can't find a single Saint who experienced sorrow, b/c they did (it is simply a part of our human nature.  Jesus felt it, Mary felt it, all the Apostles felt it,etc.).  Sorrow is sorrow, it is what it is, and by its nature, affects the heart.  Jesus showed us, by His life, how to act in times of sorrow, by loving and forgiving those who hurt us, and trusting in God goodness and fidelity. 

 

I have felt the peace of Jesus, and I have this peace within me now, it is stunning in its beauty, and remarkable in the breadth and width of the true freedom it gives!  One of my favorite Bible verses, which so aptly describes this for me is Romans 8:31-39.   

 

Your quote of Elder Holland ("There certainly can and will be plenty of external difficulties in life. Nevertheless the soul that comes unto Christ dwells within a personal fortress, a veritable palace of perfect peace"), reminds me of the book Interior Castle by Teresa of Avila, a Spanish mystic, written in 1577. 

[Urstadt]

I liked your thoughts about CBT. Are you a therapist? Which theory do you like? I am currently working on my masters in counseling so I would love to hear what you have to say.

Sorry man, I didn't see this until now. Yes, I am a counselor. I use a phenomenological approach called Ontological Hermeneutics. Feel free to private message me if you ever want to chat more.