Baptism for the Kingdoms of Salvation

[Capitalist_Oinker]

Hmmmm?

Who should I side with?

A guy with a user name and an avatar...

...or a prophet of God?

 

That's a tough one.

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb  and side with a prophet of God. Baptism is only necessary for the Celestial Kingdom.

[jerome1232]

Why does this matter again? Either they do, and they get that opportunity through baptism for the dead, or they don't, and they still get that opportunity through baptism for the dead.

[vmethot]

Baptism is only necessary for the Celestial Kingdom.

 

The prophet and the church does not say that baptism is only necessary for the celestial kingdom. If you had read the whole blog post you would see that they only say that baptism is necessary for the celestial kingdom; there is a big difference. Joseph Smith understood in 1842 that what he had said in 1832 was wrong. Your idea that baptism is only necessary for the celestial kingdom was not taught in the church again until Joseph Fielding Smith came along and misunderstood the progression of learning that Joseph Smith went through.

[cdowis]

 Joseph Fielding Smith came along and misunderstood the progression of learning that Joseph Smith went through.

 

 

It is indeed fortunate for the church that you are here to correct the prophet/seer/revelator, the President of the Church in his  misunderstanding of doctrine.  

 

Everybody else missed it!

[Capitalist_Oinker]

The prophet and the church does not say that baptism is only necessary for the celestial kingdom. If you had read the whole blog post you would see that they only say that baptism is necessary for the celestial kingdom; there is a big difference. Joseph Smith understood in 1842 that what he had said in 1832 was wrong. Your idea that baptism is only necessary for the celestial kingdom was not taught in the church again until Joseph Fielding Smith came along and misunderstood the progression of learning that Joseph Smith went through.

 

Like cdowis said, the Church is very fortunate to have men like you who can ride to the rescue whenever a prophet "misunderstands" doctrine.

 

As for reading your blog post, I am an extremely busy man. I have a full time job, a full time family, and a FULL time Church calling. I simply don't have time to waste reading dissertations that:

A.  Don’t really matter.

And

B.  Contradict prophets of God.

[dberrie2001]

I want to present my reasons for why baptism is required for salvation.

 

In my most recent blog post Kingdoms of Salvation, I used a quote from President Uchtdorf in this past General Conference to show that baptism is required for salvation, even for salvation in the telestial kingdom. In summarizing this I say, "Salvation is entrance into any of God's kingdoms within His kingdom... Baptism is required for salvation. Baptism is required to enter the kingdom of God. Therefore, baptism is required to enter the telestial kingdom of salvation because it is part of the kingdom of God."

 

This logic is simple and scripturally sound. Read it and let me know what you think.

 

Here is my observation:

 

It's confusing when you place the comments in quotation marks in your above post. That makes it appear as though President Uchtdorf might have made those comments, even though you do claim them as your summarization.

 

I had to go back and reread the talk--and the reference you gave to sort things out. I don't find your comments in quotations, within his conference talk.(It Works Wonderfully)

 

But to add my inquisition--do the little children, who die as infants--have to qualify for exaltation through water baptism?

 

We know they do not have to qualify through baptism for the Celestial kingdom(outside of exaltation)--but they do have to qualify for eternal life(exaltation) within that kingdom, ---would that include water baptism?

[vmethot]

do the little children, who die as infants--have to qualify for exaltation through water baptism?

 

We know they do not have to qualify through baptism for the Celestial kingdom(outside of exaltation)--but they do have to qualify for eternal life(exaltation) within that kingdom, ---would that include water baptism?

 

Thank you for having an honest and thoughtful question. Sorry for the confusion.

 

The correct answer to your question is that we do not know all of it. The main answer is no, they do not need baptism - water or fire. Although your definition of exaltation and mine differ (not significant), we do not know if they have to qualify for exaltation to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. If they do, it does not include baptism. Anything beyond this is speculation as far as I understand.

 

 

As for reading your blog post, I am an extremely busy man. I have a full time job, a full time family, and a FULL time Church calling. I simply don't have time to waste reading dissertations that:

A.  Don’t really matter.

And

B.  Contradict prophets of God.

 

And yet you have time to waste on a forum like this...

If you had read, you would have found quotes from prophets and scriptures showing that Joseph Smith 'contradicted' himself after learning more from God; and Brigham Young and Joseph F. Smith reinforced the doctrinal correction through both statements and canonized revelation. If you had read, you wouldn't have made yourself look bad...

[Capitalist_Oinker]

And yet you have time to waste on a forum like this...

 

I came to this forum at the behest of a friend of mine who has been a long time member. For whatever specious reason he was convinced that I could offer valuable insight into certain doctrinal principles which he had seen discussed from time to time. I checked the forum out and became a regular lurker, but was reluctant to participate due to time restraints. Eventually I gave in to his badgering and joined.

Since then I've answered a couple of questions to the satisfaction of a few, but whether I've offered anything of real worth is debatable.

There are times when I have something to say, but I don't say it because I know I won't have time for the ensuing debate. 

 

If you had read, you would have found quotes from prophets and scriptures showing that Joseph Smith 'contradicted' himself after learning more from God; and Brigham Young and Joseph F. Smith reinforced the doctrinal correction through both statements and canonized revelation.

 

If I had read I would have felt obligated to dissect your treatise, and as I said, I simply don't have the time. 

If you've managed to effectively correct the "misunderstandings" of a prophet of God---good on ya! No doubt God will continue to rely on your talents in the future. 

 

As for making myself look bad, well, it keeps me humble. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by Capitalist_Oinker

[vmethot]

As for making myself look bad, well, it keeps me humble. 

 

I'm sorry for being a little harsh. I'm still working on that. I don't mind having my writing disected as long as it is thought through. It only bothered me that you blew me off with out much thought. If you manage the time let me know.

[BinnieBlack]

Just wanted to add my bit, that I completely agree with vmethot.  The scriptures clearly show that all but the sons of perdition will need baptism to be in any of Gods Kingdoms.

[Capitalist_Oinker]

I'm sorry for being a little harsh. I'm still working on that. I don't mind having my writing disected as long as it is thought through. It only bothered me that you blew me off with out much thought. If you manage the time let me know.

 

And I'm sorry for being so caustic. On hindsight there was no reason for me to respond to your post. I don't have a dog in the fight, and the premise, while interesting, really doesn't matter. I guess the reason it piqued my ire was the slight against President Joseph Fielding Smith.

 

I went back and read through your blog, and aside from what I believe are a few too many assumptions, my first reaction was, "do you really believe that President JFS was unaware of all this?"

I mean this was a man who is considered by most in the Church to be its greatest scriptorian and gospel scholar. A man who was taught extensively by his father---the same man you propose knew that baptism was required for entrance into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms. Is it logical to presume that Joseph Fielding just didn’t get it? That this great scriptorian and scholar, through 90+ years of life just plain "misunderstood" the scriptures, and just plain didn't know what other prophets (and his own father) had taught?

I don't believe so. While what you present is plausible, I have a hard time believing that Joseph Fielding, of all people, didn't understand. Perhaps as a prophet of God he had just a tad more insight into scripture and doctrine than you and I put together.

 

And if not, and it turns out you are correct, I guess the laugh will be on him and me. 

But until the Church makes an official declaration on the subject, I'm going to stick with the last prophet who did.