Snow Posted April 5, 2004 Report Posted April 5, 2004 Set a beggar on horseback, and he'll ride to the devil (English Proverb XVI)When faced with beggar, even a child who is apparently hungry, what's the right thing to do? Is it a simple answer? Quote
Cal Posted April 5, 2004 Report Posted April 5, 2004 Originally posted by Snow@Apr 4 2004, 09:57 PM Set a beggar on horseback, and he'll ride to the devil (English Proverb XVI)When faced with beggar, even a child who is apparently hungry, what's the right thing to do? Is it a simple answer? The best reference I know is in the BoM. It addresses the issue of what to do if it looks like the person brought his plight on himself. I'm sure you can find it. I think it is in Moroni. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted April 5, 2004 Report Posted April 5, 2004 It is in Mosiah...Mosiah 4: 16 16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.Mosiah 4: 22 22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done. Quote
Cal Posted April 5, 2004 Report Posted April 5, 2004 Originally posted by Starsky@Apr 5 2004, 08:02 AM It is in Mosiah...Mosiah 4: 16 16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.Mosiah 4: 22 22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done. I was mainly refering to Mosiah 4:17-18(not Moroni-sorry about that) Quote
Snow Posted April 6, 2004 Author Report Posted April 6, 2004 The reason I ask is because some think that giving money to begging is the least charitable thing that you can do, it encourages a disreputable life style, promotes fraud, worsening the problem, and they are, apparently - at least in developing countries, things like child slavery for begging, a begging mafia, etc... Quote
naomi Posted April 6, 2004 Report Posted April 6, 2004 Originally posted by Snow@Apr 5 2004, 08:01 PM The reason I ask is because some think that giving money to begging is the least charitable thing that you can do, it encourages a disreputable life style, promotes fraud, worsening the problem, and they are, apparently - at least in developing countries, things like child slavery for begging, a begging mafia, etc... Wow! I wondered where the destitute guys who yelled at me outside the DI in Ogden got their bad impression of members from! Why did Mosiah say to be kind to the destitute? Quote
Snow Posted April 6, 2004 Author Report Posted April 6, 2004 Originally posted by naomi@Apr 5 2004, 08:05 PM Wow! I wondered where the destitute guys who yelled at me outside the DI in Ogden got their bad impression of members from! Where, and what's your point? Quote
Guest Starsky Posted April 6, 2004 Report Posted April 6, 2004 Originally posted by Cal+Apr 5 2004, 03:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Apr 5 2004, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@Apr 5 2004, 08:02 AM It is in Mosiah...Mosiah 4: 16 16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.Mosiah 4: 22 22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done. I was mainly refering to Mosiah 4:17-18(not Moroni-sorry about that) Mosiah 4: 1717 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—Yes...I love this...it really gets to the heart of the matter. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted April 6, 2004 Report Posted April 6, 2004 Originally posted by Snow@Apr 5 2004, 07:01 PM The reason I ask is because some think that giving money to begging is the least charitable thing that you can do, it encourages a disreputable life style, promotes fraud, worsening the problem, and they are, apparently - at least in developing countries, things like child slavery for begging, a begging mafia, etc... Brigham Young had your same opinion. I actually think it isn't that they are beggars, as much as it is a point to know whether or not they are fraudulent....So...if it is someone who 'chose' to beg instead of work for no reason other than laziness...we aren't to support that.But if it is someone begging who has been down a hard road which they did not choose and they are brought to this awful life with no choice of their own....we are too help them..The problem is...how do you tell the difference? We look at their countenance and clothes. Some of these beggars dress better than we do...those I don't give money to. Those who really have a countenance of pain and shame, I give to. Quote
Snow Posted April 7, 2004 Author Report Posted April 7, 2004 Thanks Stark, I not really wondering if charity is warranted or not but questioning whether the support of the begging industry (such as it is) is an appropriate application of charity. Quote
naomi Posted April 8, 2004 Report Posted April 8, 2004 Originally posted by Snow+Apr 5 2004, 09:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 5 2004, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--naomi@Apr 5 2004, 08:05 PM Wow! I wondered where the destitute guys who yelled at me outside the DI in Ogden got their bad impression of members from! Where, and what's your point? Why did Mosiah say to be kind to the destitute? The attitude you have is one that I shared until the idea of being decent to those less fortunate was explained to me. Interestingly, this was by a protestant. I wish someone in my ward was able to be that kind. They are really sort of cliquish. I was invited to Saddleback by a work friend and am considering going. Quote
Snow Posted April 8, 2004 Author Report Posted April 8, 2004 Originally posted by naomi@Apr 7 2004, 09:49 PM The attitude you have is one that I shared until the idea of being decent to those less fortunate was explained to me. Interestingly, this was by a protestant. My attitude is one of inquistivenes, wondering in there is something harmful to the human psyche and wellbeing by supporting the begging lifestyle.You may have had the idea of not being decent to the less fortunate but don't project your peccadillos onto me. Quote
naomi Posted April 8, 2004 Report Posted April 8, 2004 Originally posted by Snow+Apr 7 2004, 10:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 7 2004, 10:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--naomi@Apr 7 2004, 09:49 PM The attitude you have is one that I shared until the idea of being decent to those less fortunate was explained to me. Interestingly, this was by a protestant. My attitude is one of inquistivenes, wondering in there is something harmful to the human psyche and wellbeing by supporting the begging lifestyle.You may have had the idea of not being decent to the less fortunate but don't project your peccadillos onto me. Your idea comes across as arrogant and rather rude. I am sure that was not your intent but motive is impossible to read on a screen. Anyway, many of the beggers are mentally ill (a friend works at a MH and saw several of their patients on the street corners). I really do feel bad for these folks and can't see how giving a begger a quarter is bad for the psyche, while sneering at the begger is good. Quote
Snow Posted April 8, 2004 Author Report Posted April 8, 2004 Originally posted by naomi@Apr 7 2004, 10:39 PM I really do feel bad for these folks and can't see how giving a begger a quarter is bad for the psyche, while sneering at the begger is good. No, I don't suppose you do. If you weren't so arrogant and rude yourself, I might explain the logic behind it, just as I might explain how asking questions is a form of gathering information but reading your own motives into another's questions is in poor form. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted April 8, 2004 Report Posted April 8, 2004 Attitudes people....lets be nice... Quote
Cal Posted April 9, 2004 Report Posted April 9, 2004 Snow--read Mosiah 4:17---is there anything ambiguous about it? Why do you debate about whether the beggar needs or deserves something from those he asks? The BoM is clear; we don't get to ask that question--we give, and let God take care of the rest. It's sort of like asking "why should I pay tithing" the church will spend it on SOME things I may not agree with. The point of paying tithing ( I THOUGHT) was to benefit the PAYOR, not the PAYEE! Same thing with giving to the beggar--we need to do it because WE need the blessing, not the beggar. If the beggar goes and blows it on booze, that is HIS decision. We have done OUR part and our hands are clean. Quote
Snow Posted April 12, 2004 Author Report Posted April 12, 2004 Originally posted by Cal@Apr 9 2004, 04:31 PM Snow--read Mosiah 4:17---is there anything ambiguous about it? Why do you debate about whether the beggar needs or deserves something from those he asks? The BoM is clear; we don't get to ask that question--we give, and let God take care of the rest. My question doesn't simply revolve around whether we should help those in need. Someone needs help, the moral response is to help them. I don't question that.This particular issue was raised by Marilyn Vos Savant who was answering a inquirer's question. The gist (that she didn't fully address) was that there was a destructive side to begging as a profession that involved child slavery, crime, etc, and sucked people into it because it was lucrative enough that people would destroy their lives and self-worth rather than seeking an honest living. She simply said that there were newspaper articles that addressed the topic if anyone was interested.I asked here to generate some discussion. Quote
naomi Posted April 13, 2004 Report Posted April 13, 2004 Originally posted by Snow+Apr 11 2004, 06:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 11 2004, 06:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Apr 9 2004, 04:31 PM Snow--read Mosiah 4:17---is there anything ambiguous about it? Why do you debate about whether the beggar needs or deserves something from those he asks? The BoM is clear; we don't get to ask that question--we give, and let God take care of the rest. My question doesn't simply revolve around whether we should help those in need. Someone needs help, the moral response is to help them. I don't question that.This particular issue was raised by Marilyn Vos Savant who was answering a inquirer's question. The gist (that she didn't fully address) was that there was a destructive side to begging as a profession that involved child slavery, crime, etc, and sucked people into it because it was lucrative enough that people would destroy their lives and self-worth rather than seeking an honest living. She simply said that there were newspaper articles that addressed the topic if anyone was interested.I asked here to generate some discussion. Allright, when you refer to beggers are you discussing the mentally ill folks with signs at streetcorners? (that is a sad sight but these folks are between stays at crisis houses and mental hospitals and are seriously delusional) or the guys who are down on their luck (I passed by the latter set and had a heck of a life lesson soon thereafter). My answer is if I can reasonably help the less fortunate, then I will do so. YMMV. Quote
Guest Ammon Posted April 13, 2004 Report Posted April 13, 2004 Originally posted by Starsky@Apr 8 2004, 12:14 AM Attitudes people....lets be nice... Indeed. Quote
Guest TheProudDuck Posted April 13, 2004 Report Posted April 13, 2004 Although we are counseled to apply the scriptures to our own times, I do think some scriptures have greater relevance to some circumstances than others. For example, the crushing of political dissent in Alma 46 and 47 may have been proper among the Nephites, but would not be proper in a modern democracy. The Mosiah 4:17 scripture was both written and translated in a society that lacked any real public provision for the poor. It's one thing to withhold help from a beggar who has no other means of support. In that circumstance, regardless of whether the beggar has brought his misfortune on himself or is just a victim of bad luck, he'll literally starve. It's another thing when it's a matter of a person who's taking advantage of the public's generosity towards the less fortunate -- and after receiving all the help available, taking advantage of you. Giving to such a person encourages his lifestyle, which is worse for him than a more productive one would be. That's the reason the Church discourages visitors to Temple Square from giving to the panhandlers there. Instead, they are encouraged to donate to organizations that help the homeless get back on their feet. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted April 13, 2004 Report Posted April 13, 2004 Originally posted by Snow+Apr 11 2004, 05:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 11 2004, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Apr 9 2004, 04:31 PM Snow--read Mosiah 4:17---is there anything ambiguous about it? Why do you debate about whether the beggar needs or deserves something from those he asks? The BoM is clear; we don't get to ask that question--we give, and let God take care of the rest. My question doesn't simply revolve around whether we should help those in need. Someone needs help, the moral response is to help them. I don't question that.This particular issue was raised by Marilyn Vos Savant who was answering a inquirer's question. The gist (that she didn't fully address) was that there was a destructive side to begging as a profession that involved child slavery, crime, etc, and sucked people into it because it was lucrative enough that people would destroy their lives and self-worth rather than seeking an honest living. She simply said that there were newspaper articles that addressed the topic if anyone was interested.I asked here to generate some discussion. They have found the same thing in those who take welfare....it doesn't help as much as it destroys...if they could put people in a work program or some kind of therapy ...that would be helping them.But it is easier to just hand them some bucks and leave em behind. Quote
Jenda Posted April 14, 2004 Report Posted April 14, 2004 IMO, the appropriate thing to do is to give your money to the place where it will make the most difference. A soup kitchen, or a homeless shelter might be a good start. You can't give money to every beggar on the street, to do so would be foolish, but to not help at all is to not follow the wisdom (and commandment) handed down by Christ and the prophets. Starsky made a good point, but the money can be put to much better use if given to a shelter or soup kitchen. Quote
Guest TheProudDuck Posted April 14, 2004 Report Posted April 14, 2004 Originally posted by Snow@Apr 13 2004, 06:40 PM Well thank you PD, finally. It's one of those weeks. Sixteen tons of work, plus trying to finish my taxes, plus trying to get two very young and willful kids into bed, plus arranging interviews for a new job, plus alternating between putting-up-with and plotting-to-murder my Luciferian boss. I'm swamped. I'm not the devil's advocate. But I do think I'm the devil's associate. Where's Teancum with his javelin when you need him? Quote
Snow Posted April 14, 2004 Author Report Posted April 14, 2004 Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 13 2004, 08:46 PM I'm not the devil's advocate. But I do think I'm the devil's associate. "Associate" has so many connotations. Does he have you on retainer? Quote
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