Mormon Horses

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Jan 23 2004, 06:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Jan 23 2004, 06:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--USNationalist@Jan 22 2004, 10:18 PM

What about steel? i dont think they had that alloy back then. i think ive heard of the BoM mentioning steel... whats the deal there? does it? did steel exsist then? is there any evidence of steel (like been dug up or somthing) in the south americas?

The peoples of the Bible and the era from which the Nephites came knew all about metals and how to form them out of ore. They knew the difference between iron, steel, and copper-- just as we do today. Here are just three examples:

1. Ezra 8: 27

Also twenty basons of gold, of a thousand drams; and two vessels of fine copper, precious as gold.

2. Jer. 15: 12

Shall iron break the northern iron and the steel?

3. Ps. 18: 34

He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

Nephi was no dummy and neither was Mormon or Moroni. They knew how to work ore and also knew the difference between iron and steel as Adam knew the difference between good and evil once he ate the fruit. The Nephites were highly developed and industrious in their arts. Steel was steel and iron was iron. The Book of Mormon is the plainest book that God ever caused to be written. I am saddened that some LDS apologists have turned it into a circus act when they deny metal swords and swift horses in which men rode upon. I sure don’t need anyone from FARMS to tell me that steel is not steel and thus steal my understanding away and cut at my testimony of God’s precious book. Away with the faithless scholars who confuse the members of the Church and cause the critics to laugh at us

Let the record speak for itself:

1 Ne. 18: 25

And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

2 Ne. 5: 15

work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance

Jarom 1: 8

iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war

Mosiah 8: 10

breastplates, which are large, and they are of brass and of copper

Mosiah 11: 8

all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper

Paul O

Where are the steel artifacts?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Peace@Jan 22 2004, 09:54 PM

[

Has anyone considered the Hagoth thing? Maybe he shipped in horses...and after a time they died off.....After all the BofM does cover 1000 years.... LOL

Good grief we are trying to see into the past through the present...that just doesn't work...believe me.

One of the first things Nephi mentions when they arrive in the promised land are the abundance of animals to be found in the wilderness. Horses was one of them, so wherever they landed--there were horses around 600 bc. Hagoth, of course, could have brought more, but that would have been more than 500 years later.

[USNationalist]

...so then if they did have steel how come we didnt find any old steel stuff. Last i heard the people around when cortez showed up had no steel.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by USNationalist@Jan 23 2004, 03:30 PM

...so then if they did have steel how come we didnt find any old steel stuff. Last i heard the people around when cortez showed up had no steel.

The steel is a problem. I've never heard a satisfactory answer to that one since it is specifically called "steel" in the same sentence that other similar metals are listed.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette+Jan 23 2004, 03:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Jan 23 2004, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--USNationalist@Jan 23 2004, 03:30 PM

...so then if they did have steel how come we didnt find any old steel stuff. Last i heard the people around when cortez showed up had no steel.

The steel is a problem. I've never heard a satisfactory answer to that one since it is specifically called "steel" in the same sentence that other similar metals are listed.

Steel:

A generally hard, strong, durable, malleable alloy of iron and carbon, usually containing between 0.2 and 1.5 percent carbon, often with other constituents such as manganese, chromium, nickel, molybdenum, copper, tungsten, cobalt, or silicon, depending on the desired alloy properties, and widely used as a structural material.

Since it is made up of all these different combinations...and different steel had different make-ups...we don't know that it was the same thing as we have today.

It could have been mostly iron...which will rust.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 23 2004, 04:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 23 2004, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -curvette@Jan 23 2004, 03:44 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--USNationalist@Jan 23 2004, 03:30 PM

...so then if they did have steel how come we didnt find any old steel stuff. Last i heard the people around when cortez showed up had no steel.

The steel is a problem. I've never heard a satisfactory answer to that one since it is specifically called "steel" in the same sentence that other similar metals are listed.

Steel:

A generally hard, strong, durable, malleable alloy of iron and carbon, usually containing between 0.2 and 1.5 percent carbon, often with other constituents such as manganese, chromium, nickel, molybdenum, copper, tungsten, cobalt, or silicon, depending on the desired alloy properties, and widely used as a structural material.

Since it is made up of all these different combinations...and different steel had different make-ups...we don't know that it was the same thing as we have today.

It could have been mostly iron...which will rust.

Yep. Sure is a lucky thing how all that ancient steel in Britain, Rome, Greece, Damascus, and China just didn't dissolve away. Must've been something in the air over here in America...

[Traveler]

What are all the experts on the forum that are asking the questings about steel expecting to find in the tropical rain forest of central America after 1500 to 2000 years?

I would also like a description from the same experts of the difference between iron and steel of ancient times. What is the difference between a steel and iron sword for example? If you are looking for stainless steel I can understand your sarcasism - not your questions but your sarcasism. BTW just for fun what steel artifacts over 1500 years old have been found in a warm humid climit and how would it's age be determined? Carbon dating???

The Traveler

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Traveler@Jan 23 2004, 05:33 PM

I would also like a description from the same experts of the difference between iron and steel of ancient times. What is the difference between a steel and iron sword for example?

Maybe you'd better ask Nephi:

<<2 Ne. 5: 15

work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance>>

They obviously weren't considered the same thing at that time.

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

I don't know where the steel is.

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Traveler+Jan 23 2004, 09:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Traveler @ Jan 23 2004, 09:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 23 2004, 06:46 AM

[

I am saddened that some LDS apologists have turned it into a circus act when they deny metal swords and swift horses in which men rode upon.

Let the record speak for itself:

Paul O

I missed your reference to swift horses in which men rode upon.

Thank you

The Traveler

Horses run fast and a man can sit on them and make haste. Chariots and horses combined are a powerful way to move an army into battle. Real horses existed in America and men rode upon them. The excuses offered by some LDS apologetic scholars are an insult to my intelligence. I thank God I am not under any obligation to heed the silly ideas they come up with.

Alma 20: 6

Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots.

Ex. 14: 9

But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them

Paul O

[Cal]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Jan 23 2004, 06:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Jan 23 2004, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Traveler@Jan 23 2004, 09:27 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 23 2004, 06:46 AM

[

I am saddened that some LDS apologists have turned it into a circus act when they deny metal swords and swift horses in which men rode upon.

Let the record speak for itself:

Paul O

I missed your reference to swift horses in which men rode upon.

Thank you

The Traveler

Horses run fast and a man can sit on them and make haste. Chariots and horses combined are a powerful way to move an army into battle. Real horses existed in America and men rode upon them. The excuses offered by some LDS apologetic scholars are an insult to my intelligence. I thank God I am not under any obligation to heed the silly ideas they come up with.

Alma 20: 6

Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots.

Ex. 14: 9

But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them

Paul O

Paul-- during the period of 600 BC to 400 AD horses didn't in the Americas.There have been mammals preserved in the fossil record of those times---none are horses. On top of that when the Spanish explorers entered the Americas, there were no horses. And, none of the art of the native americans of that period depict horses.

[Paul Osborne]

Cal,

No horses?

I realize that this is a scientific view today based on the current evidence and the manner in which it is analyzed. I trust this view will change in a day when further light and knowledge is revealed and brought forth out of mother earth-- and man’s instruments are better refined.

The Book of Mormon says there was horses, and that is final. When the Lord speaks, I listen. The popular scientific ideas and conclusion of man will not sway my testimony of the truthfulness of the BofM and that horses existed in the Americas. My faith is assured in this knowledge.

Paul

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Traveler@Jan 23 2004, 05:33 PM

What are all the experts on the forum that are asking the questings about steel expecting to find in the tropical rain forest of central America after 1500 to 2000 years?

I would also like a description from the same experts of the difference between iron and steel of ancient times. What is the difference between a steel and iron sword for example? If you are looking for stainless steel I can understand your sarcasism - not your questions but your sarcasism. BTW just for fun what steel artifacts over 1500 years old have been found in a warm humid climit and how would it's age be determined? Carbon dating???

The Traveler

Well, since we're talking about the ENTIRE FACE OF THE LAND, and since we know that the Hill Cumorah is located in Western New York, I'm sure some steel somewhere would show up...right? Somewhere!?!? How about New York? Around the Hill Cumorah? Or some brass. I'll take brass, too. Or a smelting plant. That'd be nice.

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

The land is porous and the earth drinks in everything that sits on it. Just look at Egypt! There is plenty of evidence in the dry lands of Upper Egypt where moisture was absent and objects were placed in hard compartments which were not altogether consumed but preserved. But, where is Memphis in Lower Egypt? There is very little that has survived in the Delta! Not so much as a rubber ball or a toothpick because the waters and the soil consumed everything and only a few monuments of stone exists and tombs that are far out into the desert. The treasures of Egypt came from the south where the land is dry and the universal solvent is absent.

It is easy for me to conceive that finding a steel sword in the grassland of New York is not very likely. The cracks of the soil open up and devour things.

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 23 2004, 08:28 PM

Antishock,

The land is porous and the earth drinks in everything that sits on it. Just look at Egypt! There is plenty of evidence in the dry lands of Upper Egypt where moisture was absent and objects were placed in hard compartments which were not altogether consumed but preserved. But, where is Memphis in Lower Egypt? There is very little that has survived in the Delta! Not so much as a rubber ball or a toothpick because the waters and the soil consumed everything and only a few monuments of stone exists and tombs that are far out into the desert. The treasures of Egypt came from the south where the land is dry and the universal solvent is absent.

It is easy for me to conceive that finding a steel sword in the grassland of New York is not very likely. The cracks of the soil open up and devour things.

Paul O

Dude. They found a complete mammoth skeleton in Mississippi. In a pond. In the mud. The mud preserved it. It was really old. C'mon now...Paul, you're an adult. We have permission to think now.

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

The Church simply cannot afford to excavate around the hill Cumorah. If nothing were to come forth out of the earth it would embarrass the Church and weaken the faith of many of the saints and many nonmembers wouldn’t join the Church because Satan would harden their hearts because of Cumorah.

On the other hand, if evidence was brought forth it would prove detrimental to the plan of God which requires a testimony born of faith and confirmation of the Spirit and not proof sitting in a lovely glass case in the Salt Lake museum.

I don’t need evidence. I don’t want evidence. I want to walk by faith!

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

That doesn’t void what I said about Egypt nor the possibility that metal artifacts are buried deep in New York soil. The trick is that you have to dig for it. I’m smart enough to know that. You need not think I’m being dumb, antishock-- I’m really rather clever if you give me a chance.

Paul O

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by antishock82003+Jan 23 2004, 05:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (antishock82003 @ Jan 23 2004, 05:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 23 2004, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by -curvette@Jan 23 2004, 03:44 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--USNationalist@Jan 23 2004, 03:30 PM

...so then if they did have steel how come we didnt find any old steel stuff. Last i heard the people around when cortez showed up had no steel.

The steel is a problem. I've never heard a satisfactory answer to that one since it is specifically called "steel" in the same sentence that other similar metals are listed.

Steel:

A generally hard, strong, durable, malleable alloy of iron and carbon, usually containing between 0.2 and 1.5 percent carbon, often with other constituents such as manganese, chromium, nickel, molybdenum, copper, tungsten, cobalt, or silicon, depending on the desired alloy properties, and widely used as a structural material.

Since it is made up of all these different combinations...and different steel had different make-ups...we don't know that it was the same thing as we have today.

It could have been mostly iron...which will rust.

Yep. Sure is a lucky thing how all that ancient steel in Britain, Rome, Greece, Damascus, and China just didn't dissolve away. Must've been something in the air over here in America...

Okay....on the premis of steel not being found here....lets just say it is all a bunch of crap...

However, on the premis of the truth taught in the BofM...lets go forward and become the kind of people that can become united and peaceful.

The world you are living in can only get better by doing so.

Do you believe in a supreme being? (just trying to get a handle on what you believe in....I pretty much know what you don't believe in. lol)

It would be interesting, however, to wonder if God removed all the evidence or has just placed a veil upon all things pertaining to 'physical proof' of the BofM so as to not allow just anyone to fall unwittingly into the church...without exercising faith.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 23 2004, 08:38 PM

Antishock,

That doesn’t void what I said about Egypt nor the possibility that metal artifacts are buried deep in New York soil. The trick is that you have to dig for it. I’m smart enough to know that. You need not think I’m being dumb, antishock-- I’m really rather clever if you give me a chance.

Paul O

Be sure to make a circle around the area you want to dig first by sticking some sharpened branches in the ground several feet apart, kill a dog and sprinkle it's blood around, and then have a man with a sword standing guard while someone looks in a hat at their "peep-stone" and directs the digging by "seeing" in the hat an image of the treasure underground. Otherwise, you risk disturbing the spirit that is guarding the treasure adn then the treasure with "slip" further underground, staying just out of reach of the shovels.

inthenameofcheeseandriceamen

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by bizabra+Jan 23 2004, 10:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Jan 23 2004, 10:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 23 2004, 08:38 PM

Antishock,

That doesn’t void what I said about Egypt nor the possibility that metal artifacts are buried deep in New York soil. The trick is that you have to dig for it. I’m smart enough to know that. You need not think I’m being dumb, antishock-- I’m really rather clever if you give me a chance. 

Paul O

Be sure to make a circle around the area you want to dig first by sticking some sharpened branches in the ground several feet apart, kill a dog and sprinkle it's blood around, and then have a man with a sword standing guard while someone looks in a hat at their "peep-stone" and directs the digging by "seeing" in the hat an image of the treasure underground. Otherwise, you risk disturbing the spirit that is guarding the treasure adn then the treasure with "slip" further underground, staying just out of reach of the shovels.

in the name of cheese and rice amen

A little testy are we? LOL

So you are really upset by 'stuff'? eh? How do you plan to resolve your hostility towards dead people, historical records, and a church that is not going to disappear anytime soon?

[Paul Osborne]

bizabra,

Ok, smarty pants. Suppose the Church excavated the hill Cumorah and found all sorts of evidence-- you name it, it is there. Horses, steel swords, and all the rest. Would that make any difference to you? Would you run off to the nearest Mormon baptism font? Somehow I don’t think that evidence out of Cumorah would change your view of the Church other than coming up with a new attack against the Church.

Am I right?

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Yeah, Peace is right! Mormonism is here to stay and you critics can’t stop it! So, poop on you!

The Church will fill the earth and Joseph Smith’s name will be fully vindicated.

Paul O

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 23 2004, 10:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 23 2004, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -bizabra@Jan 23 2004, 10:01 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 23 2004, 08:38 PM

Antishock,

That doesn’t void what I said about Egypt nor the possibility that metal artifacts are buried deep in New York soil. The trick is that you have to dig for it. I’m smart enough to know that. You need not think I’m being dumb, antishock-- I’m really rather clever if you give me a chance. 

Paul O

Be sure to make a circle around the area you want to dig first by sticking some sharpened branches in the ground several feet apart, kill a dog and sprinkle it's blood around, and then have a man with a sword standing guard while someone looks in a hat at their "peep-stone" and directs the digging by "seeing" in the hat an image of the treasure underground. Otherwise, you risk disturbing the spirit that is guarding the treasure adn then the treasure with "slip" further underground, staying just out of reach of the shovels.

in the name of cheese and rice amen

A little testy are we? LOL

So you are really upset by 'stuff'? eh? How do you plan to resolve your hostility towards dead people, historical records, and a church that is not going to disappear anytime soon?

What makes you think I'm upset or hostile? Sheesh! You can be very confusing sometimes, Peace.

I was making a "mockery" of Pauls' post, based on historical accounts written by folks who knew Joseph Smith way back when. One of Emma's cousins wrote that bit about the stick circle and the animal blood when describing Joes' money-digging methods. I was poking a little fun at Paul's expense (sorry, Paul! You seem like a good sport and I admire your sincerity, so it's not really nice of me, I just couldn't resist)

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 23 2004, 10:07 PM

bizabra,

Ok, smarty pants. Suppose the Church excavated the hill Cumorah and found all sorts of evidence-- you name it, it is there. Horses, steel swords, and all the rest. Would that make any difference to you? Would you run off to the nearest Mormon baptism font? Somehow I don’t think that evidence out of Cumorah would change your view of the Church other than coming up with a new attack against the Church.

Am I right?

Paul O

Paul, I don't think you can accuse me of attacking THE CHURCH. I simply enjoy pointing out once in a while some of the sillier aspects of it and it's history. Sorry.

I did read these written accounts. They were funny. Not exactly the "faith promoting" stories we were taugh in Sunday School and Primary about ol' Joe and his treasure hunting days.

I am quite sure that if a major archeological dig were to take place on Cumorah, that nothing remotely resembling BofM artifacts would be found. No steel swords, no horse bones, no chariots, no large chamber filled with "treasures" and metal plate record books of any group of humans called Nephites or Lamanites or Jaredites. It would be as likely as finding a cave in Cumorah with a dragon in it squatting over a hoard of gold!

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by bizabra+Jan 23 2004, 11:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Jan 23 2004, 11:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 23 2004, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by -bizabra@Jan 23 2004, 10:01 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Paul Osborne@Jan 23 2004, 08:38 PM

Antishock,

That doesn’t void what I said about Egypt nor the possibility that metal artifacts are buried deep in New York soil. The trick is that you have to dig for it. I’m smart enough to know that. You need not think I’m being dumb, antishock-- I’m really rather clever if you give me a chance. 

Paul O

Be sure to make a circle around the area you want to dig first by sticking some sharpened branches in the ground several feet apart, kill a dog and sprinkle it's blood around, and then have a man with a sword standing guard while someone looks in a hat at their "peep-stone" and directs the digging by "seeing" in the hat an image of the treasure underground. Otherwise, you risk disturbing the spirit that is guarding the treasure adn then the treasure with "slip" further underground, staying just out of reach of the shovels.

in the name of cheese and rice amen

A little testy are we? LOL

So you are really upset by 'stuff'? eh? How do you plan to resolve your hostility towards dead people, historical records, and a church that is not going to disappear anytime soon?

What makes you think I'm upset or hostile? Sheesh! You can be very confusing sometimes, Peace.

I was making a "mockery" of Pauls' post, based on historical accounts written by folks who knew Joseph Smith way back when. One of Emma's cousins wrote that bit about the stick circle and the animal blood when describing Joes' money-digging methods. I was poking a little fun at Paul's expense (sorry, Paul! You seem like a good sport and I admire your sincerity, so it's not really nice of me, I just couldn't resist)

Sorry to confuse...I just couldn't resist...