Sodom And Gomorrah

[Traveler]

Even with a casual background most people are aware of the symbolic meaning of Sodom. Few have clue concerning the symbolic meaning of Gomorrah. How close are we to the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah?

I would propose that the “sins” of Sodom and Gomorrah were not a new development unique to the time of Abraham nor did they end with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. See Ecclesiastes 1:9-11. I submit that there are 3 times of special destruction mentioned in scripture, the flood of Noah, Sodom and Gomorrah and the “Last Days”. There are other minor events of destruction but I thought I would stick to the major events. I submit that the reasons for destruction in each of the major event epochs are basically the same. We learn from one of the books of prophecy of Enoch some interesting things about addiction to sin by those destroyed in the Flood:

1. They knew what they were doing was evil and destructive to religious society devoted to G-d.

2. They loved their evil addiction and called it good.

3. They demanded under their law that all within their society not only accept but conform to their evil standards, outlawing the standards of those devoted to G-d.

4. They refused to give up their evil and in defiance challenged G-d to destroy them.

I submit that these are the elements that comprise what is known as the ripening in inequity for destruction.

Turning again to Enoch we find the shadow of Sodom in the pre-flood society in some rather interesting statements:

1. We are told that the “order of marriage” was changed. This is open to speculation but I think this has to do with seeking sexual pleasure other than men and women under the covenant of a marriage blessed by G-d. (I think it is interesting that some religious movements are trying to redefine the marriage union that G-d blesses)

2. Enoch also tells us “Children were conceived only for carnal purposes”. I am not sure what this means but I speculate that it means either children were conceived not by loving parents but adulterous partners seeking lustful pleasure. Or children were conceived and prepaired for the sole purpose to be used by adults seeking pleasure with children.

I would comment that in today’s society there really is not a term for the blessed intimate family relationship of a man and a woman in marriage. The only word we have to describe such a thing is sex, which has come to mean a wide variety of activities that rewards participants with “sexual pleasure” of which the relationship of married couples are but a subset.

What then were the sins of Gomorrah? The ancient term was filthy lucre. Anyone care to offer a perspective?

The Traveler

[Guest curvette]

The "symbolic" meaning of Sodom (if you are referring to homosexuality) is a meaning bestowed by man, not God. Theologians from Christians to Jews agree that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, but failing to care for the widows, the poor and the needy. The intended rape of the angels is the story that sticks in our minds because it's so bizzare, but the scriptures never say that this is why they are destroyed.

<<I would comment that in today’s society there really is not a term for the blessed intimate family relationship of a man and a woman in marriage. The only word we have to describe such a thing is sex, which has come to mean a wide variety of activities that rewards participants with “sexual pleasure” of which the relationship of married couples are but a subset. >>

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Do you think that our society doesn't value marital intimacy and family life? If this were so, no one would get married in America, they'd just cohabitate. People in America don't have to be married to have sex, so I don't understand how "sex" would be equivalent to an intimate and loving marital relationship.

[Guest lt]

I could be wrong... but do you mean the way its talked about or describedin some by conversation?

[Traveler]

Originally posted by curvette@Jan 22 2004, 12:04 AM

The "symbolic" meaning of Sodom (if you are referring to homosexuality) is a meaning bestowed by man, not God. Theologians from Christians to Jews agree that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, but failing to care for the widows, the poor and the needy. The intended rape of the angels is the story that sticks in our minds because it's so bizzare, but the scriptures never say that this is why they are destroyed.

<<I would comment that in today’s society there really is not a term for the blessed intimate family relationship of a man and a woman in marriage. The only word we have to describe such a thing is sex, which has come to mean a wide variety of activities that rewards participants with “sexual pleasure” of which the relationship of married couples are but a subset. >>

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Do you think that our society doesn't value marital intimacy and family life? If this were so, no one would get married in America, they'd just cohabitate. People in America don't have to be married to have sex, so I don't understand how "sex" would be equivalent to an intimate and loving marital relationship.

Thank you for your interest. However, I am not sure you understood the connection made between Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood of Noah. Since both cases resulted in entire societies destroyed logic dictates a connection be considered with the similarities in the societies as the common reason for the annihilation. The next direction of my logic would be to ask if our modern society is developing the same characteristics present in both the society of Sodom and Gomorrah and the global society prior to the flood of Noah.

I as quite surprised with the vigor you attempt to defend certain behavior that took place in Sodom at the home of Lot. Regardless of what ever was going on in the city of Sodom and/or Gomorrah that particular activity resulted in an immediate curse on all the participants of the activity – including bystanders that came to just to watch. Your difficulty in liking that activity to the destruction of Sodom is in my mind a little naïve. In addition, I think you missed my point in the previous post. I intended that a line be drawn at the point where sexual activity is pursued outside of the union blessed by G-d which is the blessed union of husbands and wives. I include any sexual activity pursued through– pre-marriage activity, same sex activity, solo activity, sexual child abuse (ether sex), activity with animals and activity with inanimate objects. I hope the above statement is a broad enough brush to cover the spectrum of impure sexual activities before G-d. All such activity is to be viewed as anti or contrary to the core family unit as blessed by G-d.

I do believe you are right on with you connection of filthy lucre and the treatment of widows and orphans. The problem goes beyond taking care of widows and orphans and includes their exploitation for money. But filthy lucre covers more than an extraction of wealth from the poor (including widows and orphans). It appears that Gomorrah was involved in a rather broad spectrum of activities of exploitation to produce filthy lucre. Sometimes referred to as usury. The activities of exploitation in question include such thing as gambling (including lotteries), prostitution, interest on loans and money made from slave labor to name a few.

It is interesting to me that Sodom and Gomorrah as well as pre-flood society was successful in combining impure sexual activities with obtaining wealth by filthy lucre. Interesting because according to the lost testament of Enoch it was the development of these tandem activities and a refusal to allow public display of anything associated to the worship of G-d in their society that brought about the destruction of the pre-flood societies. Enoch also prophesied that the same scenario would play out again in the last days.

I am presenting this idea as an alternate concept to the idea that all who do not hold to a certain religion will be destroyed at the L-rd’s coming. Also a reminder that Jesus indicated in his assessment of serving two masters that continued participation or even indirect support in such cursed activities would nullify any religious connection as a hope of avoiding destruction.

The Traveler

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Traveler@Jan 22 2004, 05:24 PM

I as quite surprised with the vigor you attempt to defend certain behavior that took place in Sodom at the home of Lot. Regardless of what ever was going on in the city of Sodom and/or Gomorrah that particular activity resulted in an immediate curse on all the participants of the activity – including bystanders that came to just to watch. Your difficulty in liking that activity to the destruction of Sodom is in my mind a little naïve.

Was I vigorously defending something? If you reread my post I was not defending any behavior. Rape (homosexual or otherwise) is an abomination and a sin. I'm disgusted that Lot would offer his daughters in the stead of the angels. This offer supposedly is representative of the Israelites duties of hospitality. They were to protect with their own lives if necessary the life and well being of those who came under their roofs as guests. I personally don't believe these stories happened as the Old Testament says. I don't believe in a literal global flood either, so I don't dwell on details. I view the Old Testament stories as moral parables and allegories which illustrate important principals. In this particular story, I don't think the homosexual undertones of the threats of rape were remotely as important as their depravity and utter lack of the most basic regard for visitors and their own people.

I'm open minded to the things you are saying. The scenario you are describing though just doesn't make as much sense to me.

[Cal]

Traveler---the question I think you are asking is basically a sociological one. That is, how has human behavior in the areas of sexuality, agression, economic justice (feeding the poor), and criminal activity (theft, murder, rape etc) changed over time. The best way to answer this question is to consult the appropriate historical and modern research on the subject.

Because human activity today is so widely visible through the media, one might be tempted to immediately conclude that we are a more wicked society than at other times in history. It might be true. However, one would have to show that a particular activity is more prevalent now than at another time. It is no easy thing to answer, and surely jumping to conclusions based on what we see on TV etc will not suffice.

So, I have no idea whether we are or are not more wicked, except that the little history I have read makes me very hestiant to conclude that we are much worse than at any other time, and there are many ways in which we are better.

The current rate of Church attendance in the US (about 50% (all churches) is higher now than it was in the 1800's even in the large cities. Prostitution was rampant in the big cities and always has been, and was even rampant in the western frontier. History is full of murder and meyhem from the beginning. Few societies have been free of it. Crime rates in the US have been higher than they are now, and it seems to fluctuate with economic times--no particular trend upward, and definitely downward in some.

One thing I'm quite sure of predicting---there will never be another universal flood. Not because God said there never will be another, but because there never was one in the first place.

[Guest Starsky]

I think the 'greatest sin' of today...which I am sure was present in all socieities just before they were 'doomed' was the lack of straight forward communications, and applications of laws according to ethical and just principles.

Principles are lost in the applications and interpretations of laws ... in other words.... multitudes of lawyers, and over loaded case loads of courts care not for ethical or moral outcomes...they only look to see what there interpretation of the law will allow....

These are the sure sign we are living in a corrupt and ripened in iniquity society waiting for it's destruction.

When they can turn a 'law' which was drawn up to protect the innocent, into a 'loophole' to allow dangerous murderers and rapists to go free...you know you are close to the end.

The only thing I can think of that would be worse than having a 'flood'/'burning' of a wicked society by God...would be to allow the son of gun corrupt society to keep on corrupting until life wouldn't be anything but 'h-ll' anyway.

[Guest kf0ed]

Originally posted by curvette+Jan 22 2004, 07:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Jan 22 2004, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Traveler@Jan 22 2004, 05:24 PM

I as quite surprised with the vigor you attempt to defend certain behavior that took place in Sodom at the home of Lot.  Regardless of what ever was going on in the city of Sodom and/or Gomorrah that particular activity resulted in an immediate curse on all the participants of the activity – including bystanders that came to just to watch.  Your difficulty in liking that activity to the destruction of Sodom is in my mind a little naïve.

Was I vigorously defending something? If you reread my post I was not defending any behavior. Rape (homosexual or otherwise) is an abomination and a sin. I'm disgusted that Lot would offer his daughters in the stead of the angels. This offer supposedly is representative of the Israelites duties of hospitality. They were to protect with their own lives if necessary the life and well being of those who came under their roofs as guests. I personally don't believe these stories happened as the Old Testament says. I don't believe in a literal global flood either, so I don't dwell on details. I view the Old Testament stories as moral parables and allegories which illustrate important principals. In this particular story, I don't think the homosexual undertones of the threats of rape were remotely as important as their depravity and utter lack of the most basic regard for visitors and their own people.

I'm open minded to the things you are saying. The scenario you are describing though just doesn't make as much sense to me.

Lot didn't offer up his daughters. Check out the story in the Inspired Version of the Holy Scriptures.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by kf0ed@Jan 23 2004, 04:35 AM

Lot didn't offer up his daughters. Check out the story in the Inspired Version of the Holy Scriptures.

I've checked it out. It's quite problematic and I don't believe it was anything other than Joseph Smith's outrage at Lot's behavior. (sorry...)

[Cal]

Peace---because you tend to be quite vague in your objections to modern western society it is hard to address your concerns but I will try anyway.

I will assume that when you compare modern democracies (US, Britain, France, Germany, Spain etc) to empires of the past you are taking a look at the broad spectrum of activities that describe these societies.

If you do so, I think you will find that, contrary to your evaluation, modern societies are FAR more ethical, moral and just than say the dictatorial kingdoms of the 18th centuries on back.

For example, I think if you will do a little research, you will find that most scholars and experts on western civilization will agree that, inspite of its faults, the American legal system is the best ever devised by man. The improvements introduced by the Framers of the Constitution guarantee a level of fairness to the little guy, and justice to the injured, as well as protection of all by oppressive governmental actions, never before offered to mankind in ANY governement in history. Especially in any government of the size of US. The idea that a man is presummed innocent, that the government must show probable cause before 1) searching 2) arresting 3) trying for crime is a gigantic step forward in justice, fairness and, yes....rightousness. The fact that you can sue your own government for torts committed against you

is unprecedented in history. NEVER have people been able to hold their "governers" accountable for misdeeds.

Yes, the wheels of justice grind slowly. And NO, justice is not ALWAYS done; but it is done more often, will better results than at any time in history. Yes, many of the parts of the system need refining. But that doesn't change the fact that we have devised the best system known to man in history for seeing justice done.

Shall I go on?

[Guest Starsky]

Actually you can go on and on and on...but it is all mush...

The best justice system would be 'justice' above all else....

But our system is 'legal' above all else...no ethics or morals to it...

I find it totally fitting that the 10 commandments be taken out of our courts....they are ony being mocked daily...by so-called justice.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Jan 22 2004, 10:19 PM

I think the 'greatest sin' of today...which I am sure was present in all socieities just before they were 'doomed' was the lack of straight forward communications, and applications of laws according to ethical and just principles.

Principles are lost in the applications and interpretations of laws ... in other words.... multitudes of lawyers, and over loaded case loads of courts care not for ethical or moral outcomes...they only look to see what there interpretation of the law will allow....

These are the sure sign we are living in a corrupt and ripened in iniquity society waiting for it's destruction.

When they can turn a 'law' which was drawn up to protect the innocent, into a 'loophole' to allow dangerous murderers and rapists to go free...you know you are close to the end.

The only thing I can think of that would be worse than having a 'flood'/'burning' of a wicked society by God...would be to allow the son of gun corrupt society to keep on corrupting until life wouldn't be anything but 'h-ll' anyway.

Peace--to address some of your statements more specifically---

Actually, the murder rate in the US is down from 15 years ago, and violent felonies as a whole are on the decrease. Before you get so sure we are at the "end" maybe you should get some of your facts straight.

Again, too vague to address in specific, but I'm not sure you know enough about the events that lead to the down fall of societies to make any meaningful statement at all. Which governments are you talking about. The fall of the Roman empire was due to a lot of events. Most historians agree that there is no ONE reason the Empire eventually fell. All societies change, and for many different reasons. The Romans were eventually simply unable to stave off the ravages of the Eastern tribes which extorted vast sums of gold from the Romans just to keep the Huns, for example, from plundering and destroying the outlaying provinces.

The Roman legal system worked pretty well, and the Romans were, as conquerors go, pretty good to those they conquored. Their society did not fall because they had a lousy legal system, it fell because their leaders at the top made poor decisions about how to handle tribes like the Huns.

One of the advantages that strong democracies like the US has is that it draws wisdom not just from a few Kings or Rulers but from the citizenry as a whole. This has the effect of tempering and calling to account those that make bad decisions.

Personally, I think the biggest threat to our survival is the accumulation of power in the hands of gigantic corporate interests. With their money and power they threaten to influence governement to their own ends and interests, ignoring things like the ENVIRONMENT, social injustice, the poor and underpriviledge in favor of short term economic gain and the promotion of war and war machines.

[Guest Starsky]

Personally, I think the biggest threat to our survival is the accumulation of power in the hands of gigantic corporate interests. With their money and power they threaten to influence governement to their own ends and interests, ignoring things like the ENVIRONMENT, social injustice, the poor and underpriviledge in favor of short term economic gain and the promotion of war and war machines.

I agree this is a problem...but I find it is only one of many....arising from a amoral, unethical....legalistic society.

What's in it for me? That is the question on the lips of all these people...

When ever the good of one person/or law supercedes the the fundamental survival principle of 'doing what is best for the whole' then you have what we have today...in both the business and judicial worlds.

[Cal]

Peace--since the term "legalistic" has no definition I know of other than a society that operates on the "rule of law" , what do you prefer? A society without law?

By the way, what exact part of my posting is "mush" to you. Unless you can be specific, I will assume that your reaction is just an emotional outburst without substance.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Sodom And Gomorrah: Revelant to our time?

No.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

On the other hand, I find the story of Little Red Riding Hood extremely relevant to our times. Never tell the wolves where your grandmother lives.