Born Again Again

[Snow]

I met Shawn today. Shawn as you might recall posted with us for a short while as the guy with the Born-Again Mormon idea:

http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?ac...t=ST&f=2&t=2489

I didn't reread the thread but I assume that I was pretty rough on the guy or the guy's idea which I will explain in a moment. But first, when I met him today, he seemed like a decent guy, a sincere guy and a guy serious about his faith. If he reads this, I hope that he will respond and support his view.

I had my choice of hearing him speak or hearing a a lecture on Mormonism and process theology. Oh how I wish that I chose process theology. The born-again Mormon lecture reperesented everything that I dispise in many evangelical oriented approaches to Mormonism. Doug used to do it here. Stephen was doing it up to a couple weeks ago and Trident occassionally does it. Beyond the blatant hate you get, not in critic, but in true antiMormon, the second thing that most upsets me it this: it is the fundamentally dishonest interaction where the critics, in order to make their point, misrepresents our beliefs and defines us in a way that defies our own self-understanding.

That is what Shawn did today. I am sure most of you have his (the evangelical) argument down pat but it is essentially that we must be born-again and Mormons don't get it. We are forever working our way to salvation but never recognize that we come up short and don't accept that without Christ we are nothing, and thus put off the natural man and accept God's grace. See the link above for a better explanation.

Bull

I, and we as Mormons, believe that we are saved by virtue of Christ's atonement. Where we differ with the evangelicals is that they believe that the atonement becomes effective for us when we accept Christ by accepting Christ - plain belief. Mormons believe that the atonement becomes effective when we accept Christ and the way that we accept Christ is by believing and obeying him. It is dishonest and violates our self-understanding to say otherwise.

There was a respondant to him, and she played it smart and didn't answer him point for point but talked, instead, about a life of service in the Church and she experienced a valid connection to God when she was in service of her fellow man. I talked to her later and she was ticked off. I was ticked off. It was a waste of time and a rote evangelical tactic. Sorry to any evangelicals that don't believe or act that way. I wish there was a more precise term I could use to represent that faction. The point is that people strive for a valid connection to God. He says he finally found it with his current approach. Great for him. He has zero idea whether a Mormon or the Mormon people also have a valid connection with God.

I disagree with his theology but respect it as a valid perspective. I'll explain more later.

[Guest Starsky]

I don't believe there is one set way to arive at being born again. There are those who come to it through tragedy, others through obedience and sacrifice, others through study and prayer....

but there is a common thread that must be present in all these different paths to 'perfection' born againness...

That is repentence...total, complete, humbled, submissive, honest, open, repentence....

Without this...there is no born again.

[Snow]

So I am thinking more about what it is in born-again theology that is deficient - for me - the rugged, charismatic, fearless type-of-guy that I am...

Anyone who understands the born-again mindset - if there be only one, step in and correct me if I am wrong... but... For the born-again, faith is the key and faith only. The mere act of believing is what effectuates the atonement. In this sense, faith is passive, beyond mental effort, it is nothing; mere intellectual acquiesence. In it's simplest form, there is the altar call or whatever it is called when someone says the sinner's prayer and accepts Christ, and then theoretically, eternal salvation and blessings are secured.

In the LDS view, faith is far more than mental assent. It is a belief that propels towards action, the action what the evangelicals call works or filthy rags. It is still beyond my comprehension that they call "obeying God" filthy rags. Faith, for us, is not just belief but it is a way of life. We accept Christ by believing on him. We believe on him by doing as he commands, following him and trying to live a Christ-like life. The Church is all about service and when we serve others, we serve Christ.

For me born-againism is paper-thin theology (I am sure I borrowed that phrase from somebody) in its insistence for faith, and faith only. However, I think that properly understood, you have to strectch a bit here, it is essentially the same position as is the Mormon position. Mormons believe in faith and obedience, hand in hand, both together. BA's believe that faith leads to obedience and that the evidence that you actually had faith to begin with, is your obedience, and so faith, without works, isn't real faith (at least in one view of BA'ism). Either way, faith without works is dead and dead faith doesn't save.

In an expanded view, it just about the same thing.

[Jenda]

Snow, I'm not sure you are understanding the "filthy rags" thing right. Or else, I am not understanding it like a "born-again evangelical".

Filthy rags is what we wear that Christ made clean for us when He saved us. IMO, it is saying that we can't earn our way into heaven, except by repenting. Repenting makes our filthy rags clean.

Isaiah 64:6 But we have sinned; we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Matthew 5:50 Ye are therefore commanded to be perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

Every time we repent, we are made perfect, our filthy rags are made clean, and the offering we have made of our selves is made acceptable.

IMO

[serapha]

Fundamental definitions...

"Saved/Redeemed" when one acknowledges their sins and seeks forgiveness through the Lord Jesus Christ. Atonement is achieved once one is saved. If one is saved, one's sins have been atoned by the blood of Jesus Christ. One is saved by their faith in Christ.

"Born Again" when one receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost.

~serapha~

[Guest Starsky]

I believe that the LDS form of being born again is more of an abiding kind of clean. It comes with 'power', 'strength' and a deep desire never to do evil again. It brings steadfastness to our otherwise wishy washy good one day bad the next kind of verble repentence and commitment...

It is literallly a changed heart, which will be evidenced in our countenances.

[serapha]

I believe that the LDS form of being born again is more of an abiding kind of clean. It comes with 'power', 'strength' and a deep desire never to do evil again. It brings steadfastness to our otherwise wishy washy good one day bad the next kind of verble repentence and commitment...

It is literallly a changed heart, which will be evidenced in our countenances.

Hi there!

Believe it or not, a fundamentalist is only "saved" when God has judged the individual to be sincere... and therefore, there is a heart change.

The Bible refers to being born again in a spiritual sense. The inner man, the spiritual man, is "quickened" so the spirit of man can communicate with God, who is spirit.

and yes, there is "power" in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Power to overcome evil.

~serapha~

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 19 2004, 09:24 PM

I believe that the LDS form of being born again is more of an abiding kind of clean. It comes with 'power', 'strength' and a deep desire never to do evil again. It brings steadfastness to our otherwise wishy washy good one day bad the next kind of verble repentence and commitment...

It is literallly a changed heart, which will be evidenced in our countenances.

Hi there!

Believe it or not, a fundamentalist is only "saved" when God has judged the individual to be sincere... and therefore, there is a heart change.

The Bible refers to being born again in a spiritual sense. The inner man, the spiritual man, is "quickened" so the spirit of man can communicate with God, who is spirit.

and yes, there is "power" in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Power to overcome evil.

~serapha~

What do you mean by fundamentalist?

And....God is always the one who changes our hearts so of course God decides whose hearts will be changed and filled with charity/pure love.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jenda@Apr 19 2004, 08:05 PM

Snow, I'm not sure you are understanding the "filthy rags" thing right. Or else, I am not understanding it like a "born-again evangelical".

Filthy rags is what we wear that Christ made clean for us when He saved us. IMO, it is saying that we can't earn our way into heaven, except by repenting. Repenting makes our filthy rags clean.

I don't know if it is a ba thing, just that in message board debates, a number of them have referred to works (obedience to God's commandments) as filty rags.

[serapha]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 19 2004, 10:37 PM

I don't know if it is a ba thing, just that in message board debates, a number of them have referred to works (obedience to God's commandments) as filty rags.

Someone please tell me...

Was is a ba?

~serapha~

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 19 2004, 09:24 PM

Believe it or not, a fundamentalist is only "saved" when God has judged the individual to be sincere... and therefore, there is a heart change.

I agree with that but most fundamentals I have met do not. How often do you see stuff like bumper stickers saying "Honk if you're saved" or hear then say "I've been saved by the blood of Christ" and "I'm saved, thank you Jesus, ad nauseum... as if the great and glorious day of judgement done come and gone?

All the time.

[serapha]

Originally posted by Starsky@Apr 19 2004, 10:33 PM

What do you mean by fundamentalist?

Bible-thumper.

And....God is always the one who changes our hearts so of course God decides whose hearts will be changed and filled with charity/pure love.

And when one asks God for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, one receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. .... "ask and ye shall receive.."

~serapha~

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 19 2004, 09:46 PM

Someone please tell me...

Was is a ba?

~serapha~

Come now Serapha,

You toss about the acronym CoJCoLDS likes it's a rag doll but have never heard of a b-a?

[serapha]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 19 2004, 09:24 PM

Believe it or not, a fundamentalist is only "saved" when God has judged the individual to be sincere... and therefore, there is a heart change. 

I agree with that but most fundamentals I have met do not. How often do you see stuff like bumper stickers saying "Honk if you're saved" or hear then say "I've been saved by the blood of Christ" and "I'm saved, thank you Jesus, ad nauseum... as if the great and glorious day of judgement done come and gone?

All the time.

Oh, I understand now...

You're upset because fundamentalist KNOW they are saved and going to heaven... even without works.

It doesn't seem fair, does it? ...that a member of the CoJCoLDS's has to be involved in a "works" program while a fundamentalist just slides by the pearly gates with just "faith" in their heart and mind.

Snow,

I know I'm saved. God gave me that assurance. Any "works" I do here, that just gets me a bigger crown in glory. But what will I do with that crown? Why, just place it at the feet of Jesus.

My "works" aren't for my gain, but for something bigger and better to place at the feet of the One who died for me. I "work" in love... and never for what I might gain out of it for myself. Just being in the presence of God for eternity is enough... singing and praising God forever.

~serapha~

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 19 2004, 09:04 PM

Fundamental definitions...

"Saved/Redeemed" when one acknowledges their sins and seeks forgiveness through the Lord Jesus Christ. Atonement is achieved once one is saved. If one is saved, one's sins have been atoned by the blood of Jesus Christ. One is saved by their faith in Christ.

~serapha~

While doing a quick check on the interent just now, I found this site:

http://www.freegift.org

For anyone that's interested, all you have to do is read a few sentences, click a hot link, and BAM! You're saved. But back to the thread...

Those are pretty unique (read esoteric) defintions Serapha. When most people think of "saved" they think of salvation. They think of the atonement, not of something they achieve, but as something Christ did to redeem us from our sins.

[serapha]

Yes... I got it...

born-againer

Let me go back and fill that in the spaces...

~serapha~

[serapha]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 19 2004, 08:11 PM

Anyone who understands the born-again mindset - if there be only one, step in and correct me if I am wrong... but... For the born-again, faith is the key and faith only. The mere act of believing is what effectuates the atonement. In this sense, faith is passive, beyond mental effort, it is nothing; mere intellectual acquiesence. In it's simplest form, there is the altar call or whatever it is called when someone says the sinner's prayer and accepts Christ, and then theoretically, eternal salvation and blessings are secured.

Well,

You said, correct me if you are wrong...

The mere act of believing is what effectuates the atonement.

It is faith in the belief that Jesus Christ died and rose again, victor over sin, death, and the grave. And that by the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ, one's sins are forgiven.

Faith effects the atonement. Not believing. As the Word says, we are saved by faith, and not works.

In it's simplest form, there is the altar call or whatever it is called when someone says the sinner's prayer and accepts Christ, and then theoretically, eternal salvation and blessings are secured

Saying the words of the "sinner's prayer" doesn't save you... it's the submissive heart that becomes an obedient heart that saves you. God looks at the heart.

~serapha~

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 19 2004, 09:56 PM

Oh, I understand now...

You're upset because fundamentalist KNOW they are saved and going to heaven... even without works.

It doesn't seem fair, does it? ...that a member of the CoJCoLDS's has to be involved in a "works" program while a fundamentalist just slides by the pearly gates with just "faith" in their heart and mind.

Snow,

I know I'm saved. God gave me that assurance. Any "works" I do here, that just gets me a bigger crown in glory. But what will I do with that crown? Why, just place it at the feet of Jesus.

My "works" aren't for my gain, but for something bigger and better to place at the feet of the One who died for me. I "work" in love... and never for what I might gain out of it for myself. Just being in the presence of God for eternity is enough... singing and praising God forever.

~serapha~

Upset? No Serapha, I am not upset that someone THINKS they are saved. Just as I am not upset that while I think it is essential to obey God, you think you are sliding by the pearly gates. If that works for you, if that attitude establishes a valid connection to God in your mind, that's great. I wouldn't know how to judge your personal connection to God, so I don't. The reason I said ad nauseum is because I find it sophmoric to reduce the gospel to inane slogans.

However, I think you are barking up the wrong sycamore when you say KNOW.

  Any "works" I do here, that just gets me a bigger crown in glory.  But what will I do with that crown?  Why, just place it at the feet of Jesus. 

My "works" aren't for my gain, but for something bigger and better to place at the feet of the One who died for me.    I "work" in love... and never for what I might gain out of it for myself.    Just being in the presence of God for eternity is enough... singing and praising God forever.

I know you are well-intentioned but that the kind of talk that, when I run across it, makes my eyes gloss over. It seems to me to be part and parcel of the paper-thin theology of the televangelist gaggle that places such a high premium of quaint little phrases catchy ditties. You may think that I am attacking you personally, but I am not. Those that talk that way may be totally sincere and truly seeking to live a Christ-inspired life and may be full of charity and kindness, much more so than I. Possibly anyway. That's not the gospel that catches my God-given desire to follow him however.

[serapha]

Originally posted by Starsky@Apr 19 2004, 10:33 PM

And....God is always the one who changes our hearts so of course God decides whose hearts will be changed and filled with charity/pure love.

Starsky,

God is not a respector of persons.... God doesn't "decide" whose heart will be changed... God accepts everyone who approaches the throne of grace with a sincere and repentant heart.

~serapha~

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 19 2004, 10:09 PM

Faith effects the atonement. Not believing. As the Word says, we are saved by faith, and not works.

Saying the words of the "sinner's prayer" doesn't save you... it's the submissive heart that becomes an obedient heart that saves you. God looks at the heart.

~serapha~

Semantics Serapha, semantics.

Believing, albeit sincerely, is having faith.

Although for me, faith is not faith unless it is the kind of belief that leads to obedience to God.

http://www.freegift.org/

Saying the words of the "sinner's prayer" doesn't save you...

Agreed but their are plenty who think that it is just that simple. Check it out: http://www.freegift.org/

To their way of thinking, you are just a few clicks away from heaven. You can even print out a certificate to prove it.

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 19 2004, 10:13 PM

God is not a respector of persons.... God doesn't "decide" whose heart will be changed... God accepts everyone who approaches the throne of grace with a sincere and repentant heart. 

~serapha~

That's one opinion but certainly not believed by other Christians in the Calvin tradition. but what does it matter - in your view (correct me if I am wrong) doctrine doesn't matter, accepting Christ is what matters, right?

[serapha]

Originally posted by Snow@Apr 19 2004, 11:12 PM

However, I think you are barking up the wrong sycamore when you say KNOW.

snow,

You can "know"... I don't have a monopoly on knowing God's plan of salvation, I can't help if it God gave me a promise and I can't help it if God cannot lie.

You can know that you know.

~serapha~

[serapha]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 19 2004, 10:13 PM

God is not a respector of persons.... God doesn't "decide" whose heart will be changed... God accepts everyone who approaches the throne of grace with a sincere and repentant heart. 

~serapha~

That's one opinion but certainly not believed by other Christians in the Calvin tradition. but what does it matter - in your view (correct me if I am wrong) doctrine doesn't matter, accepting Christ is what matters, right?

Well,

I believe God predestines everyone to be saved... And, yes, biblical doctrine does matter... particularly this doctrine...

DOCTRINE OF SALVATION (Phase 1)

December 7, 1985

Preliminary considerations (Jd.3):

Mankind stands in need of salvation due to Adam's fall (Rom.5:12-21).

Adam's original sin is imputed to his progeny, resulting in spiritual death to all (Rom.3:23; Gal.3:22).

While man is born physically alive, he is born spiritually dead, enslaved to the indwelling sinful trend of Adam/old sin nature (STA/OSN; Eph.2:1-3; Rom.3:9; 5:17).

This leads to personal sins which form a barrier between man and God's perfect righteousness (+R; Col.2:13,14).

Man is completely incapable of redeeming himself (Ps.49:7-9; 146:3; 1Pet.1:18,19).

Therefore, God initiated His plan to do for man what man could not do for himself (Act.2:23; Eph.2:8,9).

God's attribute of Love explains why He provided a grace solution to man's fallen and sinful condition (Jn.3:16; Rom.5:8; Eph.2:4; 1Jn.3:1; 4:10).

In order to redeem the fallen race, God sent into the world a Savior to be a substitute and sacrifice for sin (1Tim.1:15; 1Jn.4:9,10).

This perfect man, being actual flesh and blood, had to be without sin and had to be willing to die (Gal.4:4; 1Jn.3:5).

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to die in our place so that we could be redeemed from the curse of the Law (the Law, which is God's +R contained in commandments, demands perfection and no one can keep it; hence it is a curse; Gal.3:13).

Only Jesus Christ could keep the Law and be so qualified to bear the judgment for our sins in His own body on the Cross (Mt.5:17; 2Cor.5:21; 1Jn.3:5; 1Pet.2:24).

This He accomplished some 1,960 years ago, providing a once-for-all-time sacrifice for sins (1Tim.2:6; Heb.9:28).

The message of salvation is the gospel, which means "good news" (Rom.1:16; Eph.1;13).

Christ died for our sins (1Cor.15:3).

Those who believe in Him possess forgiveness and eternal life (Act.2:37-39; 15:7; cp. 10:38; Eph.1:7; 2Tim.1:10).

He was raised from the dead, ensuring the believer's victory over the grave via resurrection (1Thess.4:14).

Eternal salvation is by grace, i.e., a free gift of God (Rom.3:24; 6:23).

Salvation is from God and not of human derivation (1Chr.16:35; Ps.3:8; 24:5; 62:2,5,6; 67:2; 146:3; Isa.12:2,3; 43:11; Ti.3:5; Heb.5:9; Rev.19:1).

The Cross is the place where our so great salvation was made possible (Jn.12:32,33; 1Cor.1:18; Col.1:20; 1Pet.2:24).

The role of the Godhead in salvation.

God the Father sent His Son into the world to be the Savior, thus fulfilling the eternal decree to do so (Jn.5:23,24,30,36,38, plus 22X; Gal.4:4, et al.).

God the Son became flesh, and the resultant hypostatic union existed in the incarnation under humiliation, culminating in the execution of the eternal decree to die for sins (Act.2:23; Phil.2:6-8).

God the Holy Spirit convicts men of their need, regenerates those who believe, and seals (keeps saved) those who are born again (Jn.16:8-11; 3:5; Eph.1:13,14). He reveals the Son to men (Jn.16:14,15).

Various doctrines of salvation briefly explained.

Propitiation views the effect of Christ's work on the Cross on the righteousness of God: namely, that God has been propitiated (satisfied) with respect to man's sins (man's sins are no longer a barrier to eternal relationship to God; Rom.3:25a; 1Jn.2:1,2; 4:10).

Redemption views mankind as slaves to the STA/OSN, analogous to a slave market, and Christ the free man purchasing their freedom through His blood (Jn.3:36; Rom.6:17,18,22; 8:2; Gal.4:5; 5:1; Col.1:14; Ti.2:14; Heb.9:12,15).

Reconciliation sees man's sins as producing hostility between himself and God, and then God removing the hostility through Christ. Man is required to believe to effect the reconciliation (Rom.5:1,10,11; Col.1:21,22; 2Cor.5:18,19).

Justification sees man in need of God's perfect Righteousness to be qualified to live in heaven as God's sons forever. Imputation is the corollary doctrine which describes the mechanics of justification (Rom.3:26,28; 4:3,5,9-11; 5:1a; Gal.2:16).

Regeneration is the work of God the Holy Spirit toward the one who believes, constituting the individual a son of God through a new birth, and imputing eternal life to the believer (Jn.3; 1Jn.5:1,4).

Adoption is God accepting us as His sons and joint-heirs with Christ who formerly were not His children (Gal.4:5; Eph.1:5; Rom.8:15).

Unlimited atonement declares that Christ died for all men, including those who reject Him as Savior (1Jn.2:2).

Calling views God as extending the invitation to be saved to all, even those who refuse to come (Mt.22:14; Rom.8:30; Gal.1:6; 1Tim.6:12).

Election is the process whereby God accepts as His own those He already knew would accept the call to salvation (Mt.22:14; Eph.1:4).

Foreknowledge is God's Omniscience, through which He knew from eternity past all those who would believe (Rom.8:29).

Predestination means that God foreknew those who would believe, and these He predestined to be in the image of His Son. He did not cause them to believe and exclude others (Rom.8:29,30; Eph.1:5,11; 1Pet1:1,2).

Man's part in his salvation is to simply believe that God the Father sent God the Son to be the Savior (Jn.6:29).

The mechanics of salvation is to believe in God the Son (Gen.15:6; Isa.28:16; Jn.1:7,12; 3:15-18,36; 20:31; Act.16:31; Rom.3:22; 4:3; 10:9; 1Cor.1:21; Gal.3:26; 1Jn.3:23; 5:13, et al.).

When repentance is used in a salvation context, it refers only to the change in one's thinking that occurs when a person rejects their previous ideas for the truth (Mk.1:15).

Abraham is the pattern for all who believe for salvation (Rom.4:3,11,12).

Those under the Law (like David) were saved by faith (Rom.4:6-8).

Salvation is not by works (Jn.1:13).

Salvation is not by any system of law or works, including the perfect system of righteousness given by God, the Mosaic Law (Rom.3:20; Gal.2:16; 3:11; Eph.2:8,9; Ti.3:5).

Salvation is not through ritual, including the Lord's Table or water baptism (Rom.4:10-14; 1Cor.1:17; 1Pet.3:21; Heb.10:1-4).

If there were a system of works that could produce God's perfect righteousness in man, salvation would be by works, nullifying the need for the Cross (Gal.3:21).

If salvation were by works, man could boast; but salvation by grace negates boasting (Rom.3:27-30).

Finally, man cannot add anything to faith in Christ. This would be another gospel (Gal.1:6,7).

Salvation is eternal at the point of faith in Christ and cannot be forfeited under any circumstances whatsoever; we call this eternal security (God can deny rewards in heaven, but not eternal life).

As seen in the use of the adjective "eternal", describing our salvation (Jn.3:36; 4:14; 5:24; 10:28; 1Tim.1:16; 1Jn3:15; 5:11, et al.).

As seen in the "bread of life" and "water of life" metaphors (Jn.4:13,14; 6:32-35, 47-58).

As seen in the Good Shepherd metaphor (Jn.10:28,29).

As seen in the new birth analogy to physical birth (Jn.3:3-6; 1Pet.1:23).

As seen in direct statements like Rom.8:35-39 and 1Pet.1:5.

As seen in the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit (Eph.1:13; 4:30).

Applications of the doctrine to believers.

Confidence with respect to one's salvation is based on:

Practicing righteousness and keeping the royal imperatives (1Jn.2:3,5,29).

Loving the brethren (1Jn.3:10,14).

Learning Bible Doctrine (1Jn.2:27; 3:24).

The responsibility to bear witness is for all believers regardless of niche or gift (Isa.52:7; Ti.2:10).

The challenge of one's salvation is to lay hold of those things that accompany our salvation adjustment to the justice of God (SAJG) through growth (Heb.6:9; 1Pet.2:2).

The promise associated with our salvation is eternal life in a resurrection body (Jn.5:20-29; 11:24-27; Rom.8:23).

Who can be saved?

Christ, the Savior of all men, died for all men so that all can be saved (Jn.3:17; 4:42; Rom.10:13; 1Tim.4:10; Ti.2:11; 1Jn.2:2).

<span style=\'color:red\'>It is God's desire that all be saved (1Tim.2:4).

However, the vast majority of mankind will not be saved due to negative volition (Mt.7:13,14).

None will perish who would otherwise believe if given an opportunity (Jn.17:2).

Those who populate heaven constitute a great multitude (Heb.2:10; 12:23; 1Cor.10:33).

The consequences of failing to believe in Christ.

The unbeliever renders himself unworthy of salvation (Act.13:46).

He is already under judgment (Jn.3:18,36; cp. Rom.8:1).

He is guilty of the unpardonable sin (Mt.12:31; Mk.3:28,29; Lk.12:10).

He will die in his sins (Jn.8:24).

He will enter into eternal torment at physical death and experience the second death (Mt.18:8; 25:41,46; 2Thess.1:9; Jd.7).

All unbelievers will be raised in the last resurrection, judged, and cast into the Lake of Fire (Jn.5:29; Rev.20:11-15).

The word salvation means deliverance. Other uses of this word, other than Phase One deliverance, must be recognized in Scripture.

Temporal deliverance (Ps.18:48; 37:39; 38:22; Dan.6:27; 1Cor.10:13; 1Tim.1:20; 2Tim.4:17).

Deliverance from loss at the Bema Seat (Phil.2:12; 1Tim.4:16).

The Rapture, which is the deliverance of the body (Rom.13:11; 1Thess.5:9).

No one can have a relationship with God apart from Jesus Christ, His Son (Mt.10:40; Jn.5:23; 8:19; 13:20; 15:21; 16:3; 17:3).

Isa.55:1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; and you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost."

Rev.21:6,7 "And He said to me, 'It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.'"

[serapha]

Oops...

reference.

http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/salv.html

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 19 2004, 10:38 PM

Well,

I believe God predestines everyone to be saved... And, yes, biblical doctrine does matter... particularly this doctrine...

Please try and keep your positions straight. A moment ago you were saying that God does not does not decided who is saved and now you say that God pre-determines who will be saved. Which is it?

And, earlier you said that salvation was by faith, not you seem to be saying that doctrine plays a roll. Which is it? Salvation by faith, or salvation by faith and correct doctrine?