Holy Ghost

[serapha]

"The power of the Holy Ghost can come upon a person before baptism and witness that the gospel is true. But the right to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whenever one is worthy, is a gift that can be received only by the laying on of hands by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder after authorized baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ."

http://scriptures.lds.org/gsh/hlyghst

so... no one outside the CoJCoLDS's can have the indwelling or the infilling of the Holy Ghost? No one is "born again" with the indwelling of the Holy Ghost except the members of the CoJCoLDS's, and then only after a member of the priesthood gives it to you ????

John 3: 3

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So no one is entering the "kingdom of God" except for members of the CoJCoLDS's who received the spirit because Melchizedek Priesthood holder laid hands on them?

Lu 11:13

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Jas 4:2b

yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

Could someone please reconcile these two Bible passages to the first paragraph.

~serapha~

[AFDaw]

I would say that while I believe that the Holy Ghost can comfort and be with anyone at anytime, that you can only obtain the gift of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion by the laying on of hands by one who has the authority to do so. Now, say I have the gift of the Holy Ghost and I go out and do all sorts of bad things, the Holy Ghost will leave me. He's only a constant companion if the person stays worthy to have him as one.

As for entering the "Kingdom of God", the gift of the Holy Ghost is only part of what has to happen. It is not the deciding factor.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 19 2004, 01:51 PM

"The power of the Holy Ghost can come upon a person before baptism and witness that the gospel is true. But the right to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whenever one is worthy, is a gift that can be received only by the laying on of hands by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder after authorized baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ."

http://scriptures.lds.org/gsh/hlyghst

so... no one outside the CoJCoLDS's can have the indwelling or the infilling of the Holy Ghost? No one is "born again" with the indwelling of the Holy Ghost except the members of the CoJCoLDS's, and then only after a member of the priesthood gives it to you ????

John 3: 3

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So no one is entering the "kingdom of God" except for members of the CoJCoLDS's who received the spirit because Melchizedek Priesthood holder laid hands on them?

Lu 11:13

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Jas 4:2b

yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

Could someone please reconcile these two Bible passages to the first paragraph.

~serapha~

Serapha,

You have two questions. One about LDS ideas on salvation and one about whether the LDS ideas contradict the Bible.

I am more interested in your second thought. You imply that there is a contradiction between the thought that the Gift of the Holy Ghost must be conferred by one in authority and certain Bible passages but you have not shown that they are in contradiction. In essence you are asking us to resolve a conflict that, thus far, exists only in your mind.

How about going out on a limb and actually showing us what the alledged contradiction is. Typically you abandon these types of things when you get challenged or ignore the responses but there might be something to be learned on both sides if you'll stick with it.

So... what's the contradiction?

[serapha]

Snow,

Three points...

1) I only abandon those statements where the poster is obnoxious in their reply to me. '

2) From that point on, I ignore the offending party.... it's still your choice. If you want discussion.. you have to stay out of the gutter. And I have learned the rules here. Any future postings which are not within the guidelines as posted will be reported. "respect" was one of the guideline words.

3) What's the contradiction? Any saved, born again fundamentalist has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because God gives it to them, and it is evidenced by the change in their life. Since the LDS's teach that only people who receive the Holy Ghost through a "hands on" experience and since the Word of God teaches that unless one is born again... they don't go to heaven.

That's the contradiction.

~serapha~

[Snow]

1. It seems convenient to me that when the going gets tough for your point of view, your "opponent" becomes obnoxious.

2. Your argument fails on several counts:

-We don't believe that you have to be Mormon to be saved. In fact we don't understand salvation the same way that you do. As a function of the atonement, we believe that even you are saved - in the sense of a general salvation, saved from death, that you will be resurrected and go to heaven.

-The scriptures you quoted do not address whether a person can or does receive the Holy Ghost as a constant companion though the laying on of hand by those in authority as is the LDS belief. The verse implies, though does not explicitly say, that God blesses those who ask with the Holy Ghost. We accept that and believe it. That is a seperate issue from the gift of the Holy Ghost in LDS theology.

-A change of life is not evidence of the indwelling, as you put it, of the Holy Ghost. People change all the time and their changes have nothing to do with Christianity.

[AFDaw]

We believe that the Holy Ghost can be with anyone at any point in time. But he's not a constant companion unless you receive it through the Priesthood. And only thereafter if you remain worthy to have him around.