New Poster From Madb, Bad Institute Experience

[Notquitewetyet]

Hi. I've posted some on MADB, and the best way to explain who I am is a college student who has been investigating the church for about a year, but who hasn't joined. Why, you may ask? Mostly family and fear of rejection. Most of the people I've met in the church have been very kind to me, and I just want to let people here know that I do know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, and the revelations and translations which came forth through him were by the power of God. But yeah, I still have issues.

So, in closing, I think the thing is, I know that the Light of Christ enlightens all men, inside and outside the church. I know that members who are baptized and confirmed have the gift of the HG. But I know that there are moments in my life and in the lives of others, before I found out about this church, that had to be the work of a loving God through the Holy Ghost. So, how do you all feel? Did any of you who converted ever find this a little rough? (especially if you're Catholic or are of another church that confirms people)? Do you think that non-members can have experiences with the HG? Perhaps this in the wrong forum~

[poulsenll]

Hi. I've posted some on MADB, and the best way to explain who I am is a college student who has been investigating the church for about a year, but who hasn't joined. Why, you may ask? Mostly family and fear of rejection. Most of the people I've met in the church have been very kind to me, and I just want to let people here know that I do know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, and the revelations and translations which came forth through him were by the power of God. But yeah, I still have issues.

I'm currently on yet another baptismal course (this is my fourth attempt). Usually what happens is about a week before the ceremony, my family dumps it all on me, or I just get too depressed to go through with it. The missionaries I'm meeting with are great guys. However, the one thing which has always, just ever so slightly, been a little irksome is statements like: "Since you don't have the right of the Holy Ghost, you can't really understand the scriptures" et cetera. Now, I'd never presume to tell anyone about their own faith, but these statements do hurt some. Also, I thought it was the "gift of the HG" and not a right to the HG. Although I know somewhere in the D&C it mentions "If ye keep my commandments, I am bound to do what I have promised" I think this must be it. Also, I don't think the missionaries or members realize how that statement "you can't really understand the scriptures" (although I do concede, even, in a logical fashion, consent to and believe it as a result of accepting Joseph Smith's divine mission) can sometimes hurt non-members, especially if they were active in another Christian faith before coming to the LDS church. Please note I've never said anything like this to any of my LDS acquaintances, or pointed out how I feel. However, today at the Institute on my college campus the topic of the class ended up being about the HG and it being in our lives. Now, this past sunday the Apostle Holland came to the city and spoke to the wards at an auditorium, and one of the things he preached on (and my did he preach!) was on how the Church undervalues the gift of the HG. I mean, some of this wasn't a talk in the LDS fashion, but real, honest to goodness, preaching. He put his fist down on the pulpit, he berated the saints, and it was frightening, because it somehow stirred angst in my heart. I thought about how this must be like listening to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young preaching. Since there are only a few people in the class, they went around and asked people's opinions. I said that it sure reminded me of "fire and brimstone, like Brigham Young." One guy kind of gave me a snarly aside, about how my opinion didn't matter and he'd heard too much. He didn't do it loudly, and no one else heard. So I pretty much set out the rest of the class. When they went around, asking about how the HG had influenced each person's life, I just said that I didn't really count.

So, in closing, I think the thing is, I know that the Light of Christ enlightens all men, inside and outside the church. I know that members who are baptized and confirmed have the gift of the HG. But I know that there are moments in my life and in the lives of others, before I found out about this church, that had to be the work of a loving God through the Holy Ghost. So, how do you all feel? Did any of you who converted ever find this a little rough? (especially if you're Catholic or are of another church that confirms people)? Do you think that non-members can have experiences with the HG? Perhaps this in the wrong forum~

NQWY

This is the right place to ask this kind of question. You will probably get several ansewers and they may not all agree.

Many members are not well founded in the difference between the Holy Ghost as a member of the Godhead and the Gift of the Holy Ghost. As a member of the Godhead the Holy Ghost may interact with anyone, be they member of the Church or not. In this capacity He makes it possible for God the Father and the Son to manifest themselves to mortal beings as occured when Joseph Smith prayed in the Sacred Grove. He, under the direction of the Father does whatever is necesary to carry out God's work to bring to pass the Eternal Life of Man. He is also the giver of gifts as taught in

1 CORINTHIANS

CHAPTER 12

7 But the manifestation of the aSpirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is agiven by the bSpirit the cword of dwisdom; to another the word of eknowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another afaith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of bhealing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of amiracles; to another bprophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of dtongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

He is also the comforter and the only source by which we may know that Jesus is the Christ. The HG may interact with men and women in these ways whether they are members or not but it is th HG who initiates these interactions. On the Day of Prntecost the crowd, who had not been baptized, were given the gift of the interpretation of tongues and heard the apostles each in his own tongue.

When a person is confirmed, he is told to "recieve the Holy Ghost". He is not given the Gift of the Holy Ghost, he must recieve the Holy Ghost into his life and then accept what the HG has in store for him. If we recieve Him, we then , if worthy, can petition Him for help and guidance beyond our own capacities. This does not mean that a non member can not be guided by the Holy Ghost, it just means that he does not have this special gift, NOT A RIGHT.

In fact it is only by the power of the Holy Ghost that a non member can gain a testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel and therefore accept baptism and take upon themselves the Name of Christ.

Dont let those that, even though they are members, lack the desire to listen to the whispering of the HG testifying that what an Apostle is teching is the truth, discourage you from recognizing what is truth whether it is by the Spirit of Christ or maybe the HG Himself bearing testimony to you.

Larry P

[Dale]

Roger Keller was a Presbyterian minister that later joined the LDS Church. He felt his deciding to go into the ministry was a call from God. And that it's possible to experience the Holy Spirit in different denominations. His The Apostasy talk should be of interest to you. His Question and Answer Session at the end of his talk answers your concern I think. (Q3)

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2004_Apostasy.html

[fish4kitty]

Hi. I've posted some on MADB, and the best way to explain who I am is a college student who has been investigating the church for about a year, but who hasn't joined. Why, you may ask? Mostly family and fear of rejection. Most of the people I've met in the church have been very kind to me, and I just want to let people here know that I do know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, and the revelations and translations which came forth through him were by the power of God. But yeah, I still have issues.

So, in closing, I think the thing is, I know that the Light of Christ enlightens all men, inside and outside the church. I know that members who are baptized and confirmed have the gift of the HG. But I know that there are moments in my life and in the lives of others, before I found out about this church, that had to be the work of a loving God through the Holy Ghost. So, how do you all feel? Did any of you who converted ever find this a little rough? (especially if you're Catholic or are of another church that confirms people)? Do you think that non-members can have experiences with the HG? Perhaps this in the wrong forum~

In short yes.

[Garden Girl]

Hello notquitewetyet... glad to see you here...

Oh my, did I get irked, and I mean irked, when I read about that missionary telling you that "since you didn't have the RIGHT to the Holy Ghost you couldn't understand the scriptures" He needs to be stopped in his tracks NOW... he is insulting... do you attend the ward where this missionary is assigned? If you do, I'd have a talk with the ward mission leader because if this is what he is telling investigators then he is alienating them I'm sure.

It is true that the GIFT of the Holy Ghost is given after baptism, upon confirmation, by the laying on of hands by those with authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood. However, the Holy Ghost is a witness of the truth and as you read the scriptures and pray about them, the Holy Ghost will witness to you.

To quote Victor L. Ludlow (former mission president, bishop, and director of Bible Studies at BYU's Religious Studies Center) in Principles and Practices of the Restored Gospel..."When any person--Church member or nonmember, Christian or otherwise-- receives spiritual knowledge or guidance, he receives it through the power of the Holy Ghost. The Spirit may manifest himself to that person in any of his capacities as messenger, revelator, testifier, or comforter. Thus, an investigator of the Church receives a spiritual witness that the Book of Mormon is true by the power of the Holy Ghost (Moro. 10:4 and 5... And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things)

But unless the investigator acts upon this revelation through repentance, baptism, and confirmation, the testimony of the Spirit will not remain with him.

Expounding upon the New Testament account of the conversion of Cornelius, the Prophet Joseph clarified the difference between the influence of the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost: "Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him." (Teachings of the Prophet JS, 199).

As a member of the Godhead, he can witness gospel truths and provide comfort to our souls. However, the influences will be irregular without a confirmation of the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Perhaps the missionary is thinking that Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote that "The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have the constant companionship of the Spirit..." (Mormon Doctrine, 313).

I still don't like the statement as made by the missionary because it isn't complete in that it doesn't make any reference to the influence of the Holy Ghost which is given as God sees fit... whenever and to whomever as a witness and comforter... so IMO every time you study and pray faithfully about the scriptures and teachings of the Church, you will be able to receive the witness of the Spirit...

The Garden Girl

edit to add: NQWY... I notice you shortened your OP, but I also want to say that I'm sorry about the institute experience... of course you matter... you count!

[Guest karlita007]

Hey there!

I too am investigating the Church (planning on getting baptized soon!), and what really speaks to me is that I think I'm baaarely ahead of you in the process.

I believe in what the Church teaches, even though I still have doctrinal struggles every now and again--just because I'm not used to some of the things I am hearing. Once it's explained to me, it always makes sense and I feel tons better. I think our lovely members did a great job with the Holy Ghost question, answered a few of my own questions too.

About family and rejection... I feel you. Boy, do I feel you. While my LDS friends and boyfriend were ecstatic to learn about the changes in my life, there are those whom I haven't told just because it terrifies the bejeebers out of me. My mother and sister are violently anti-Mormon, and the members of my family's church are obviously not too happy about my change of heart.

But here's the thing that helps me through. By continuing with this Church, I am right with God, and in the end, that is all that matters. My own relationship with God and how well I have listened to His words in my life.

It's so hard to have family members and friends opposing such a core part of who you are. But with growing faith and courage, I hope that both of us will step out into the light and stand as witnesses for Christ in these latter days. =)

[Doctor Steuss]

"Latter-day Saints believe that God has inspired not only people of the Bible and the Book of Mormon, but other people as well, to carry out his purposes. Today God inspires not only Latter-day Saints but also founders, teachers, philosophers, and reformers of other Christian and non-Christian religions. Since LDS belief is grounded in a theistic biblical faith, it has been relatively easy for scholars and believers to perceive parallels between it and traditional Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Now that the Church has become a global movement extending into Asia, comparisons between the gospel of Jesus Christ and the principal religions of India, China, Korea, and Japan are increasingly significant.

...

...speeches by apostles George A. Smith and Parley P. Pratt in 1855 evoked more positive traditional interpretations: that Islam, fulfilling biblical promises made to Ishmael ("gen. 21:1Gen. 21), was divinely instigated to "scourge" apostate Christianity and to curb idolatry. Perhaps unknowingly paraphrasing Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1792), George A. Smith applied historical judgment to Islam´s experience: "As they abode in the teachings which Mahomet gave them,…they were united and prospered; but when they ceased to do this, they lost their power and influence" (pp. 34–35)."

http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=202

Also (one of my favorites)...

"The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. … We believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation”

February 15, 1978 First Presidency Easter Message (as cited in James E. Faust, “Communion with the Holy Spirit,” Ensign, Mar 2002, 2–7)