Please explain this to me... I honestly don't understand

[Mountaingirl]

This is what my original post was trying to convey. The entire LDS church was started because of Joseph Smith and his revelations. So if Joseph Smith is running around telling married women that God wants him to marry them, in secret, and this is not true at all - why then does everyone believe anything that he says God told him? If he is lying about one thing - then why doesn't anyone question whether or not he is lying about another?

Good question Shell!

[Shell72]

Wow, that is a long thread. I guess this topic still gets a lot of response.

I think I’ll try to tackle that last half of the original post. I didn’t see this point being made, but only skimmed over most of the posts.

God can take away a command when ever he chooses. There is another lesson in Mormon history about a command being given, and that command being taken away. Joseph Smith and the saints where commanded to build a “new Jerusalem” or a Zion. But as you know the persecution of the saints (because of disobedience) The saints were forced to flee.

A revelation revoking this command was given to Joseph Smith.

I don’t think anybody would doubt this logic. If the Saints do what is required of them. Then they are blessed for what they have done. I honestly don’t think Polygamy was going to stay around forever. Maybe it was cut short for who knows what reason. But the Church understands that as members following a command they do what is in there power.

That is kind of short sided in the sense that you assume Polygamy was always going to be around. This we don’t know one way or the other. To assume that God can’t “change” his command is not given God credit for the commandments in the first place. Also you do not understand the deeper doctrine involved. Eternal Marriage command (that kind of gets thrown in all of this) is still a command today. The requirements for Celestial Glory are still the same.

Protected? From what? Who is to know that it didn’t get protected for 2 years longer. The idea that it would be protected forever very well could be. See the scripture above. I don’t know of a time when God gave a commandment and then told his people, “well lets see how things go in a couple of years” God has always been one that the command is still in effect, or it isn’t. At this time of willford woodruff the command was still in play.

Why not? The General Conference of the church is where Church matters are presented to the church. No better place to put into effect a change in command.

I have to assume from this statement that you have analyzed everything else Joseph Smith has said. Even though you really aren’t going by Joseph Smith’s accounts, but others that have said things about Joseph Smith. The point being you are trying to find contradictions in what Joseph Smith said with what others have said. Then to assume Joseph Smith must be the one wrong (because he has more to loose). What makes one source more accurate then another?

Because my testimony of Joseph Smith isn’t about Polygamy. Its about being called as a prophet. Its about did Joseph Smith tell the truth about the First Vision! Did Joseph Smith really see Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Did Joseph Smith really translate the Book of Mormon. Is the Book of Mormon a record of people that came from Jerusalem? Did Joseph Smith restore the priesthood today! I suggest you spend your time “researching” these ideas, topics. And then the key point of prayer to your Heavenly Father, if these things are true.

I have never asked God what the deal is with Polygamy. As far as I have been taught, that isn’t something for me to worry about today! It isn’t a commandment I need to live. The same reason I don’t worry about raising cattle so I can kill the first one of them. Yes we know that was a commandment that was practiced. But I’m not asking God if it was true or not?

The same holds true for me today! I worry about the things that deal with my Salvation! Meaning! Is Eternal Marriage a correct doctrine of God! (yes, and it was restored through Joseph Smith).

I do assume you have read section 132. It is a tuff section to read with not understanding what is being taught. Be do realize this is talking about Eternal Marrage, and how at times it was allowed to include Multiple wives. It really talks about being married Under the law, and outside the law.

I understand that God has the "right" ( for lack of a better word) to change whatever he wants. The question here is - did he?

Throughout the entire bible the message is crystal clear and not open to any misinterpretation. Do not commit adultery - it is a sin. Do not covet thy neighbors wife. It is a sin. These are the ten commandments and no where has God changed his mind and contradicted any of them.

Regarding eternal marriage - it may be in the book of mormon which Joseph Smith provided, and remember I am questioning his motives here, but in the Holy Bible this is what God says about marriage in Heaven:

"At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."Mathew 22:29-31

"Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. "

Romans 7:1-3

There is no mention in the Bible of a marriage that transcends our mortal lives - the only place this comes from is out of the mouth of Joseph Smith. Some of the best love stories are written in the Bible, do you honestly believe that God would only allow those AFTER the 1800's a chance to be sealed to their wives for eternity? That the love of earlier days did not measuere up?

[ztodd]

I could definitely show you quotes that would change your mind... I won't unless you want me to.

I've probably seen them.

If the prophet is the only person who can see and speak with (and for) God, why wouldn't he make it clear his position about racism? God wouldn't want people to suffer because of the color of their skin... He would put a stop to it immediately, at least in my opinion.

I don't know why. There are probably many reasons.. many things that we needed to learn, many trials that people needed to pass through for their ultimate good.. I'm just guessing.

We all know now that skin color depends on where you were from originally. The closer to the equator you were, the closer to the sun. The closer to the sun you were, the darker the pigment in your skin to protect you from the sun.

Haven't heard that before. Interesting theory.

The curse of Cain story is nothing short of harmful, racist, and untrue. How could a prophet of God, who speaks and talks with and for Him, say those things?

Well.. I know it can be hard to understand, but there were a couple of times throughout the history of the earth where the Lord chose to inflict a person or people with a darker skin. Again, I don't know all the reasons.

It makes no sense to me. I can't get over it no matter how hard I try.

Well, I'm pullin for ya.. and praying that you'll come to trust in the Lord a bit more than in your own wisdom.

Are you studying the book of mormon every day and praying that you can hold on to your testimony?

[Shell72]

When LDS speak of 'testimony' - does is mean "faith" ?

[ztodd]

There's another thread that's real good about defining a testimony- search the word testimony, I'm sure you'll find it.

[Shell72]

There's another thread that's real good about defining a testimony- search the word testimony, I'm sure you'll find it.

I did a search of the word and it came up with toooooooo many threads... so I googled it..and wouldn't you know - now I sit here with even MORE questions! LOL!

[ztodd]

Here it is -

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/8934-testimony-question.html?highlight=testimony

[Shell72]

Here it is -

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/8934-testimony-question.html?highlight=testimony

Thank you - I was having a hard time following the conversation whenever that word came up.

[Dale]

I understand six hundred million people are Evangelical's. Martin Luther the one who started the reformation made several Anti-Semitic comment's I am aware of. I do not think Evangelical's should stop thinking he was a man of God just because he made such comment's. Neither should million's of LDS stop thinking Brigham Young was a man of God because of similar comment's. But obsession on a few bad comment's can cause us to miss reading all the good teaching's both men gave.

------------

"Several criticisms involve taking a cultural standard that exists today and applying it retroactively to Smith's day. This is a common technique in the larger society today. For example, did Thomas Jefferson have sexual relations with his slave, Sally Hemming's? This is a legitimate subject of interest, but it would be reckless to immediately conclude that the Decleration of Independence and all that Jefferson stood for cannot be trusted." (On Behalf of Christ's Restored Gospel (Volume 1) pg. 9)

[peanutgallery]

I understand that God has the "right" ( for lack of a better word) to change whatever he wants. The question here is - did he?

Throughout the entire bible the message is crystal clear and not open to any misinterpretation. Do not commit adultery - it is a sin. Do not covet thy neighbors wife. It is a sin. These are the ten commandments and no where has God changed his mind and contradicted any of them.

Regarding eternal marriage - it may be in the book of mormon which Joseph Smith provided, and remember I am questioning his motives here, but in the Holy Bible this is what God says about marriage in Heaven:

"At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."Mathew 22:29-31

"Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. "

Romans 7:1-3

There is no mention in the Bible of a marriage that transcends our mortal lives - the only place this comes from is out of the mouth of Joseph Smith. Some of the best love stories are written in the Bible, do you honestly believe that God would only allow those AFTER the 1800's a chance to be sealed to their wives for eternity? That the love of earlier days did not measuere up?

The scripture you quoted from Romans is talking about adultry. It basically says that if a a man dies, his wife can remarry and it won't be considered adultry. It has nothing to do with whether or not marriage can be eternal.

Matthew 16:19 says

19 And I will agive unto thee the bkeys of the ckingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt dbind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[Shell72]

The missionary went on to tell me that this is what the scriptures were for. If you felt the need to check on something a leader, apostle or prophet has said you should check your scriptures and pray. That is a kicker for me because what are the scriptures but a written record of prophets? It's circular logic... I just go in circles.

"believe not every spirit, but TRY the spirits whether they are of God: Because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (I John 4:1)

Prove All Things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thessalon5:21)

Galatians 1:8--"But though we or an angel of Heaven, preach any other gospel, unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48)

I take these verses personally all to mean, that anything that is in direct contradiction to the Holy Bible is not to be trusted, if you encounter anyone that tells you anything that is not in the Bible it is wrong.

I have so many more verses like this from throughout the Bible - which is why I have such a hard time with Joseph Smith - who was the founder of the LDS Church - and the man who's word was trusted to build an entire Church seperate from any other , and why I started this thread.

[peanutgallery]

"believe not every spirit, but TRY the spirits whether they are of God: Because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (I John 4:1)

Prove All Things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thessalon5:21)

Galatians 1:8--"But though we or an angel of Heaven, preach any other gospel, unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48)

I take these verses personally all to mean, that anything that is in direct contradiction to the Holy Bible is not to be trusted, if you encounter anyone that tells you anything that is not in the Bible it is wrong.

I have so many more verses like this from throughout the Bible - which is why I have such a hard time with Joseph Smith - who was the founder of the LDS Church - and the man who's word was trusted to build an entire Church seperate from any other , and why I started this thread.

I have been a member of the church my entire life and I have never heard anything from Joseph Smith or any other prophet that contradicts the Bible. I have heard people who misinterpret certain verses or take things out of context say that he did, but that doesn't count.

[Shell72]

The scripture you quoted from Romans is talking about adultry. It basically says that if a a man dies, his wife can remarry and it won't be considered adultry. It has nothing to do with whether or not marriage can be eternal.

Matthew 16:19 says

19 And I will agive unto thee the bkeys of the ckingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt dbind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Where is there any mention of marriage in that passage? Did you read the whole chapter? Jesus was identifying himself to Peter as the son of God, and handing him the keys to the kingdom of heaven ( movingly metaphoric for Jesus being the way to Heaven ) and telling him that whatever judgement he passes on earth will carry forward to heaven.

Is that the verse Joseph Smith used to back up his prophesy of marrying mulitple wives? Because the subject they were discussing was not marriage, nor wives, but of the identity of Jesus and that he was the way to get to heaven.

[Shell72]

I have been a member of the church my entire life and I have never heard anything from Joseph Smith or any other prophet that contradicts the Bible. I have heard people who misinterpret certain verses or take things out of context say that he did, but that doesn't count.

"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea ... he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did .... you have got to learn how to be GODS YOURSELVES... the same as all GODS have done before you .... "Joseph Smith

I am he: BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME." (Isaiah 43:1 O)

God the Father has a body of FLESH AND BONES. (Section 130:22 The D&C

God is a SPIRIT. (John 4:24)

Those seem like blatant contradictions in my eyes. As well as Joseph directly disobeying the 10 commandments in the name of God - to me those are major red flags that we all, as God's children, should question this.

[peanutgallery]

Where is there any mention of marriage in that passage? Did you read the whole chapter? Jesus was identifying himself to Peter as the son of God, and handing him the keys to the kingdom of heaven ( movingly metaphoric for Jesus being the way to Heaven ) and telling him that whatever judgement he passes on earth will carry forward to heaven.

Is that the verse Joseph Smith used to back up his prophesy of marrying mulitple wives? Because the subject they were discussing was not marriage, nor wives, but of the identity of Jesus and that he was the way to get to heaven.

You are correct that Christ is giving Peter the keys of heaven. He is telling Peter that when he uses the keys, any covenants made under that authority will be bound in heaven. Temple sealing of a man and a woman for eternity must be done using those same keys that Christ gave to Peter who came with James and John to give to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

I am not saying that this is the verse that discusses plural marriage. That's all over the Bible. It was a very common practice. This verse explains how the covenants we make on earth are eternal.

[Shell72]

You are correct that Christ is giving Peter the keys of heaven. He is telling Peter that when he uses the keys, any covenants made under that authority will be bound in heaven. Temple sealing of a man and a woman for eternity must be done using those same keys that Christ gave to Peter who came with James and John to give to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

I am not saying that this is the verse that discusses plural marriage. That's all over the Bible. It was a very common practice. This verse explains how the covenants we make on earth are eternal.

I dont' see where he speaks of any covenants made under that authority will be bound in heaven. He is talking about getting into the Kingdom of Heaven. Peter had the keys to the kingdom of heaven. I believe it can be taken out of context to mean just about anything but the whole chapter is talking about Jesus building his church and handing over the keys to Heaven.

[Dale]

I decided that Evangelicalism was untrue because of my pondering their criticism's of Mormonism. I just do not think they have the truer religion. I do not see Evangelicalism as not contradicting the Bible. Whatever prophet's ideas in the Restoration that contradict the scriptures seem far fewer in my mind.

Matthew 22:29-31 is not unquestionably firm proof against the idea of eternal marriage. Jesus answer was based solely on his knowledge of the law of Moses. (vs. 24) The law and it's rule's have been abolished so Jesus could have learned something in the afterlife about eternal marriage that contradicted his mortal answer. The answer he gave in vs. 30 was based merely on his interpretation the law of Moses taught no marriage in heaven which was true. He got no new revelation from God regarding the matter only said they were single in the resurrection as that was the only answer he could give based on Moses word's. And Moses word's are not the final authority regarding matter's of faith and practice these day's.

My denomination denies marriages in heaven based on the same text, but i do not see jesus answer as the final authority.

Grace Alone was no early Christian orthodox doctrine as far as i can tell. They felt in the quote's i read that obedience is essential to salvation. I don't see the grace alone Gospel as being anything other than having a minor presence in early Christianity. A book entitled Will The Real Heretics Please Stand Up, A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity by David W. Bercot documents this. The grace alone gospel would be a new gospel to the early Christian's.

Ephesian's 2:8-10 i interpret more cautiously than Evangelical's. Some of those works are thing's we have to do upon pain of damnation if we don't do them. Teaching that we are not saved by human effort is not the same unbeliever's can't be punished for work's want's them to be created into. Law is still the thing unbeliever's will be judged on not merely because they refused grace.(Jame's 2:10)

I tell you what give's me hope. I see my religion standing up to other gospel's. As someone put it on a DVD i own the Restored Gospel is better than any other product. I just think it's the better gospel. I have read a lot of Mormonism critic's. I see them as propping up a wrong gospel with Anti-Mormon trivia. One i tested for myself the basic Evangelical gospel i just knew it was untrue. Whatever error's in Mormonism exist's it did not make that Evangelical gospel any truer to me.

[Shell72]

Hi Dale :)

The LDS is the only Christian religion with a supplementary bible. This is why I question it - because it came from joseph smith, and Joseph Smith was directly contradicting what God has told us to do in the name of God. That is my only problem with the LDS church. If the Church were to focus soley on their own beliefs from the Bible and the Bible alone - then far be it from me to question what others believe that God is telling them through his Holy Word.

What I have found is that the Bible warns us directly about false prophets and warns us not to be filled with feelings to justify our faith etc as the heart itself is deceptive. It tells us to question anyone that calls themself a prophet of God, and it tells us that many will try to decieve in His name. It even goes as far as to say that anyone who says that the Angel of the Lord has told them shall be cursed : "Galatians 1:8--"But though we or an angel from heaven , preach any other gospel, unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." We are warned and instructed on how to deal with this.

So I ask this - How do you KNOW that Joseph Smith was a true prophet? It says in the Bible that feelings are not to be trusted so.. if you stay within the guidelines of the Bible how do you personally know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God:

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Proverbs 14:12)

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked " (Jeremiah 17:9)

Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not decieved . " (Deuteronomy 11:16)

Deuteronomy 18:22--A "true prophet" will not give any false prophecies.

many of the things Joseph Smith prophetized did not come true, his revelation the second coming of Christ was to occur within 56 years ( which would have made it happen in 1891ish), Mr. Patten was to go on a Mission the following Spring and yet he passed away in October, The US Government did not undo the wrongdoings and yet was still not overthrown within a few years and Congress did not break up as a result of not listening to Mr. Smith, The temple built atop Mt. Zion was never built, I could go on and on, and I'm sure that there are a thousand reasons why people that believe Joseph was a prophet can explain why these things didn't happen - but God clearly states that EVERYTHING a prophet prophesises will come to pass..

So WHY was an entire church founded on a man who was did not pass the "test" according to the Bible? Why do people believe that he was speaking God's word? Why did people believe him at the time when he said marrying other men's wives was God's will when it directly contradicted the 10 commandments? I seriously DO NOT UNDERSTAND!!!!

[Dale]

Shell i trust my feeling's because i have tested them. My testimony is not based on subjective feeling's alone. I applied the Barean test to my feeling's to make sure my heart wasn't tricking me. I have taken witnessing to Mormon's instruction. I attended, or listened to seminar's on CD. One is listened to and still have is one Jame's White did. I met a few person's involved as activist's in witnessing to Mormon's. And i do take out my Bible to look up scripture's as i think testing is very important.

Prior to my Community of Christ baptism i read two book's on my church off and on several year's prior to my baptism. One was Reorganized LDS Church: Is It Christian? By Carole Hanson. Partway To Utah by Paul Trask. And i went through a stack of tract's on us also. I read a bunch of book's on LDS also. I do not regret my baptism in the least. I was baptized a well informed member inspite of the history i might not get in Sunday School.

I have a shoe box filled with DVD film's Evangelical's put out to educate their member's and the public about Mormonism. One i was watching and pondering tonight was a section out of the Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith film on Joseph Smith's Character. A lot of it was on the polygamy issue which bothered me at one time, but these day's not at all.

I have a binder filled with solution's to false prophecies of Joseph Smith. One deal's with the 56 year prophecy.

Joseph Smith's Alleged 56-Year Second Coming Prophecy - Revision - SHIELDS

David Patten did not settle up all his business as instructed. The last act though brave of him was to fight a battle of man instead of staying out of it. If he had stayed out of the fight instead of defending man's business he could have stayed alive to go on that mission.

Missouri was punished when it was crippled at the end of the Civil War. No need for the U.S. governent to be overthrown as long as the U.S. government took care of the guilty Missouri officer's. The U.S. government could not redress the wrong's any more than they did. I see it as a fulfilled prophecy in that like Jonah's prophecy of the destruction of Ninevah was averted destruction.

Temple to be built in Missouri prophecy-Because it say's "this place" not "that place" one explanation is that it refer's to the Kirtland temple not the Independence, temple. The gathering, or the place of the temple started in Kirtland not Independence, Missouri. I am ok with this explanation, but not all are.

Another is that it's basically just Jesus re-using his word's in Matthew 24:34. I think he meant generation in the same sense not the quicker sense his critic's think. My link to this article might be outdated is Generation

I see no reason to think Joseph smith did not pass the test. Although the law and it's rule's have been fulfilled, so i allow Joseph Smith a false prophecy. The Bible is not my final authority in faith and practice. No scripture collection of book's or revelation's is my final authority. Jesus Christ is my final authority not anything in a book.

One prophecy i am think Joseph smith was wrong on was the instruction to go sell the Book of Mormon Copywrite only for the Canada area. The mission fail's and Joseph smith is told by the Lord as the story goes that "Some revelations, are of men, and other's of God." David Whitner was right Joseph smith was wrong, but placed Moses over Jesus. Jesus decided to keep Joseph Smith as his prophet, but David Whitmer did not.

The Lord has power to make modern exception's for the test in Deut. 18:21,22. Since the Jesus of Joseph Smith is higher in authority than Deuteronomy he can do what he want's. The test has been ignored by Jesus once in the case of Joseph Smith. Maybe he allowed Joseph Smith more mistake's and kept him as a prophet i don't know.

Actually i do not see where in my copy of In Sacred Lonliness where it prove's Joseph Smith committed adultury with married women. Emma Smith once explained that she thought "they were only sealed for eternity they were not to live with them." (Mormon Enigma pg. 292) This would be how Emma Smith, and i regard Joseph Smith's polyandrous sealing's. I re-read about the 11 cases and all the women continued to live with the legal husband. The idea once can committ adultury without sex is hard for me to think adultury.

The author of In Sacred Lonliness can think sex all he want's, but he had no case. So i disagree with his belief Joseph Smith had relation's with married women. If the Lord called these women, and Joseph Smith together to be sealed he did not commit adultury. How could Joseph Smith be guilty of sin for doing what God commanded him to do? D.&C. 132 as a revelation indicate's Joseph smith did not commit adultury.

Plus D.&C. 132:61 prevent's co-habiting with other men's wive's. It would not prevent Joseph Smith from marrying them in name only without co-habitation though. It say's the woman must be "vowed to no other man, then he is justified he cannot commit adultury, for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultury with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else."

As far as Joseph Smith committing adultury with single women he was married to D.&C. 132 give's him a not guilty verdict on that one also.

I am not certain myself D.&C. 132 is scripture, but if it is i will never understand i can only accept. I hate polygamy with a passion. I don't try to understand the Lord. (Isa.55:8) What i hate and what the Lord like's can be two seperate thing's. If the document is not scripture then i am ok for not accepting it. No need to defend Joseph smith in that case.

Does my answer help you understand?

[USNationalist]

lmao

[boloki]

I am wondering why we tend to dwell in the past when it comes to Mormonism. If we dwell in the past over the Bible, the OT would give us all some real challenges. Polygamy is of the past. Joseph Smith had many wives. Brigham Young had many wives. Polygamy was abolished and it's over. There is no need to focus on it anymore. We have other pressing issues at stake right now that are more important.

[Dale]

The issue of Joseph Smith's character is important to Joseph Smith's prophetic claim's. If he was alway's of bad character they reason he lied about being a prophet. That's why he get's so many character attack's. We have member's who feel that Joseph Smith repented of his connection with polygamy before his death and said it was of the Devil. So we accept him as we would David and his repentance. Our Community of Christ historian's type's acknowledge Joseph Smith's involvement in polygamy. Book's like Joseph Smith 3rd Pragmatic Prophet by Rodger D. Launius present that modern point of view. That position is our official position at our website today. A few year's ago we denied his involvement as our official position.

We have other's who feel he was innocent of polygamy. The online book Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy by Richard and Pamela Price is an example. They are continuing a series of article's in Vision magazine on the subject. They place the article's online to read also. Their research and conclusion's whatever it's fault's is an alternative to book's like Mormon Enigma, ect. They sell the book's fairly cheap. Restoration Bookstore Home Page

Some of what Richard and Price write is useful in countering some of the John C. Bennet claim's. The story that Joseph Smith tried to seduce Orson Pratt's wife Sarah Pratt is false. She admitted to Joseph Smith 3rd in a repentant moment her claim was untrue. But they are to much into blaming Brigham Young, and the other twelve. And are not into commenting on document's like William Clayton's Nauvoo Journal. Which document support's the testimony of Emily and Eliza Partridge for example. So they are seen as revisionist's.

[Shell72]

Dale, I love reading your posts. You are very well informed and I really appreciate the time and effort you put into to your responses to me. While I do disagree on some points - I am atleast learning where the LDS is coming from where, prior to coming to this thread, I was just blown away by what I percieved to be blatant disregard for what the Bible has commanded and now I do see that the LDS truly is seeking God's word. And while I view some of it as miguided, as I'm sure you view the Christian faith, I do respect anyone that is seeking God's word.

I have built my faith around the Bible and soley around the Bible( which because of this - I have started reading again! :) ) , so I am sure that you can understand why I would question a book introduced so late in life by a man who's motives I question and I sincerely appreciate you understanding that and not attacking me or trying to belittle my opinons.

God Bless :)

[Dale]

Shell i read so many work's that get into being critical of Joseph Smith's character that i actually developed a testimony he was a good man. I don't see him as a perfect man, but i don't see him as totally untrustworthy.

I try to answer as much as possible the precise objection's. That require's me to read regularly work's by Mormon critic's. So whenever someone has an concern on a message board i can go to my room and flip open a book. Plus FAIR has researched a lot of topic's covered in such literature also. LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage

I have not become convinced the Bible need's to become my final authority in regard's to matter's of faith and practice. I did not see the Book of Mormon, and Bible contradiction list's i have seen as unsolveable list's. I have no objection's to the book myself. I studied the reputed problem's with the book, but i still think it's true. So i felt i could continue to affirm the Book of Mormon as scripture.

Plus i found LDS scholar's had some scholarly evidence's for the Book of Mormon. I think what they have is as good as some Bible reliability evidences i have read. LDS book's like Echoe's and Evidences of The Book of Mormon and Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited get into such evidence. Zondervan in the New Mormon Challenge book tried to rebut LDS scholarship, but i thought they failed.

[grannysue]

I don't think I SHOULD get over it. It shouldn't have happened, and I sure don't want my future kids to have to deal with the same thing. It's definitely not the same thing as Santa Clause but I understand the analogy.

I cannot get past the racist comments past prophets, apostles, and other leaders have made. These are men of God, why would they make such comments? I talked to a missionary about this, and he told me that they were speaking as men and not for God. How do you know when they are speaking for God? How do you know?

The missionary went on to tell me that this is what the scriptures were for. If you felt the need to check on something a leader, apostle or prophet has said you should check your scriptures and pray. That is a kicker for me because what are the scriptures but a written record of prophets? It's circular logic... I just go in circles.

Here's how I see this. Prophets are men God uses to spread His word. Any man He has chosen as a prophet is, by nature, imperfect. Every person, no matter how righteous, can act only within the framework of his or her paradigm, and that paradigm is greatly influenced by his/her environment, both at home and in the society at large.

I, too, am bothered by racist comments, and I know that God does not condone such comments. Quite the opposite. My take on it is that God keeps giving us personal inspiration/revelation as we are willing/ready to receive it. Ten years later, when I am finally open to receiving some new information about myself or the gospel, I can often see that HE has been trying to get through to me for years. After the fact, I can even trace the pattern of His prodding and refining me through circumstances and events I did not understand at the time, necessitated not because He wasn't ready for me to see the light but because I just wasn't willing/able to see it until I had gained more wisdom and experience.

I have to believe that prophets are the same, though I suspect they are much more highly evolved than I or they wouldn't have been chosen. Still, they have restricted paradigms as well and sometimes a human being can be so convinced by society that the world is flat that it takes the right person and the right timing for the message/information to finally get through that it's round. Ot maybe he's so used to the world being "flat" that it doesn't even occur to him that it could/should be anything else. It's like there's no frame of reference in which to place the new information, so that frame has to be constructed before the information can be viewed and processed.

I think the same holds true with the racist comments we find so troublesome. The early prophets were still products of their times and environments. Thankfully, as always does happen in the end, the Lord made His will known. True, He could have appeared in a cloud of thunder and bonked one prophet or another on the head to make his point with no lag time, but it's my observation that He more frequently works on us over time till we "get it." (And by the way, to Him, a hundred years here and there is probably still a quick result.) In those instances when He decides to go the "teaching these people is a process route", which is what I see most often, then it's just a fact of life and human nature that people (even prophets) can't "hear" what they're not ready/willing/prepared to hear. That's why we as individuals ARE prepared, line upon line, precept upon precept, and I believe this process is true not only for individuals, but for generations, even generations of prophets. Most often, paradigm change takes time, and I suspect the Lord is never in such a hurry as we are. However, I am quite secure in the knowledge that He will get the job done, in His time.

Anyway, that is how I make sense of blacks and the priesthood and other such issues. JMHO, of course.