Girls removed from FLDS ranch in texas.

[Shell72]

First: Excellent article on the Texas thing -- Lonsberry

Yes, Green was singled out to make Utah look like it was cracking down on polygamy and was trying to show a new face to the world. Problem was, it blew up in their collective faces. Now do I feel any happiness over this? No, because it made Mormons look bad and hurt missionary efforts.

Now let's see if I remember right, he took a wife who was technically under age but if this had been his first wife (and only wife at the time) it would have been legal to marry her. Opps, polygamist marriages aren't legally recognized, so instead he was guilty of sex with an underage female. Oh wait, her parents gave concent and she just happened to be in her 30s when Utah's legal guys went after Green. The woman did not want Green prosecuted, but the state just had to do it -- Green had been on TV just a few too many times for their peace of mind.

I don't even think a parent should have the right to "consent" to a child having sex - they too should be held accountable for making a decision like that IMO.

I'm glad Mr. Green got put behind bars. Anyone that finds a 13 year old girl sexually attractive should be locked up for any reason the courts can find IMO and away from society.

Just my opinion of course..

[Fiannan]

Who says its ok?? It shows how much you know, because that sort of thing is definitely not normal and Im sure many of the other Brits on the board would agree with me. But someone mentioned a 14 yr old in some states can get married. And THATS ok??? 16 is the legal age of consent here, but that doesnt mean a 16 year old shacking up with a 30 year old is ok.

I believe the couple were planning on getting married. And why should it not be normal?

Of course it applies to women!! Its just as sick the other way round.

Sleeping with lots different people is not the same. If you sleep with hundreds, yes I agree its not right. But to use a religious excuse to make it 'ok' is what I find abhorrent. People who sleep around, cheat whatever, dont justify ot with religion. They usually know their behaviour is wrong. Polygamists try to justify it wth religion so people can't argue. Thats what I have a problem with.

Actually, it's the other way around. When Christianity was kinda officially organized in the 4th. Century religion got turned around to say polygamy was wrong -- based on Roman Pagan laws and traditions that wanted to insure that a man only had one legal heir or source of heirs but kinda assuming that you still had access to slaves for sex.

By the way, Martin Luther admitted that the scriptures do not make any condemnation of polygamy.

So nowadays if a man and two women desire to make themselves a polygamist family there are plenty of people just assuming it's wrong because their traditions (based on faulty interpretations of Christianity) say it's wrong. Would you not agree then that the society should have no right to condemn the personal decisions of three or more adult persons desiring to be married to each other? Note, I did say adult.

[Shell72]

Would you not agree then that the society should have no right to condemn the personal decisions of three or more adult persons desiring to be married to each other? Note, I did say adult.

As long as they don't reproduce and bring children into that enviornment.

ETA: Their decisions are judged by God and God alone and it's not up to me to pass judgement - but when a child gets born into the mix I believe society has a responsibility to protect them.

[Fiannan]

I don't even think a parent should have the right to "consent" to a child having sex - they too should be held accountable for making a decision like that IMO.

I'm glad Mr. Green got put behind bars. Anyone that finds a 13 year old girl sexually attractive should be locked up for any reason the courts can find IMO and away from society.

Just my opinion of course..

Wasn't Helen Mar Kimball married to Joseph Smith when she was 14?

[Shell72]

Wasn't Helen Mar Kimball married to Joseph Smith when she was 14?

And that makes it right?

[Fiannan]

As long as they don't reproduce and bring children into that enviornment.

ETA: Their decisions are judged by God and God alone and it's not up to me to pass judgement - but when a child gets born into the mix I believe society has a responsibility to protect them.

So what's necessarily bad about that environment? Seems like our society has some interesting takes on polygamy. Polygamy is OK in the Bible but having sex with people you aren't married to is not and homosexuality is definently a no no. However, any lesbian in the USA or Canada can go in and get inseminated and have as many kids as she wants. And any heterosexual woman can go to a bar or sperm bank and do likewise (although I think women going to sperm banks are screened as to whether they would be fit mothers).

[Fiannan]

And that makes it right?

Can you cite anything in the Bible or the Koran or the Talmud that says it is not right?

[Shell72]

So what's necessarily bad about that environment? Seems like our society has some interesting takes on polygamy. Polygamy is OK in the Bible but having sex with people you aren't married to is not and homosexuality is definently a no no. However, any lesbian in the USA or Canada can go in and get inseminated and have as many kids as she wants. And any woman can go to a bar or sperm bank and do likewise (although I think women going to sperm banks though are screened as to whether they would be fit mothers though).

What is bad about that enviornment?

Well first off, they grow up in secrecy. It is illegal so any of the children of the 2nd, 3rd et etc wife grow up having to publicly deny their father.

Secondly, you are not to have sex with a women you are not married to. The law does not allow you to marry more than one woman ( and it is not a necessity, nor a commandment that men have more than one wife - so breaking the law ( "obey the laws of the land" ) in the name of your faith is not warranted. The children are brought into an unlawful and/or sinful enviorment.

Thirdly, it is not fair to expect a child to go live thier lives completely ostracized (sp?) from society. It is not fair and extremely selfish on the parts of the parents.

[Shell72]

Can you cite anything in the Bible or the Koran or the Talmud that says it is not right?

Is it ok with you that 13 year old's are having sexual relations?

[Shell72]

Can you cite anything in the Bible or the Koran or the Talmud that says it is not right?

Sorry.. I forgot this part in my post.

Yes I can..

Romans 13:1-2, TLB. "Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow."

Utah Law states that the age of consent is 16 for a female.

[Fiannan]

Is it ok with you that 13 year old's are having sexual relations?

Hey, play nice, Sgallen was banned today in the open forum for less of an implication in one of his posts.

Personally, no...I am not okay with it. I like Brigham Young's practice of only marrying someone when they were at least 18. However, when it comes to religion, I am not sure the Bible condemns it and I know the Koran does not condemn it. Biologically speaking, the reason for secondary sexual characteristics is to demonstrate the maturity for reproduction so I guess biology does not condemn it. So I won't condemn Mary the mother of Jesus for being 14 when she conceived Jesus nor will I condemn Joseph Smith.

[Fiannan]

Sorry.. I forgot this part in my post.

Yes I can..

Romans 13:1-2, TLB. "Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow."

Utah Law states that the age of consent is 16 for a female.

So I guess the Romans were justified for killing the apostles -- they were trouble makers?

[kona0197]

What makes you think Mary was only 14 when she conceived Jesus? I certainly do not believe that nor will I ever...

[a-train]

A-train - you haven't tried Carl's Jr have you?

No, if it is not locally owned I won't even walk in the door.

-a-train

[kona0197]

Wow. You really do yourself a disfavor with that attitude. What about your local people working there? They need your support to have a job.

[Shell72]

Hey, play nice, Sgallen was banned today in the open forum for less of an implication in one of his posts.

Personally, no...I am not okay with it. I like Brigham Young's practice of only marrying someone when they were at least 18. However, when it comes to religion, I am not sure the Bible condemns it and I know the Koran does not condemn it. Biologically speaking, the reason for secondary sexual characteristics is to demonstrate the maturity for reproduction so I guess biology does not condemn it. So I won't condemn Mary the mother of Jesus for being 14 when she conceived Jesus nor will I condemn Joseph Smith.

I wasn't intending to be mean - it was an honest question.

[a-train]

I wonder which tom green was a bigger public annoyance?

[Shell72]

So I guess the Romans were justified for killing the apostles -- they were trouble makers?

Let's stick to the topic at hand...

The bible commands it's people to obey the laws of the Land. There is nothing in the age of consent laws, or marriage laws that go against what the Bible tells us to do, so there is no justifiable reason why someone would go against God's word regarding obeying the laws of the land, and have relations with a minor or take more than one wife. God does not command his people to do this.

[a-train]

Wow. You really do yourself a disfavor with that attitude. What about your local people working there? They need your support to have a job.

It's not an attitude, its a strategy. My town needs all the support it can get. Perhaps Carl's Jr. has a great burger, but I would like as much of my money to go to my local economy as possible.

So am I NOT supporting local working people by spending my money in locally owned and operated businesses? I don't understand.

-a-train

[kona0197]

So you alienate those 30 or 40 people working at Carl's Jr and choose to support the 15 people at the locally owned place? You really need to rethink that whole situation. Why can you not support both?

For example I would rather shop at Walmart than a local owned Mom and Pop store. Cheaper. But there are some things I get from the Mom and Pop store because Walmart does not carry them.

You can not fight the system. You can try. You will not get very far. It's called progress. Learn to live with it.

[a-train]

Around 10% of money spent at a Walmart goes to local employees. Around 6% goes to Chinese importation alone.

-a-train

[kona0197]

So you will shop at Walmart but will not eat at a Carl's Jr? Your a contradiction walking...

[a-train]

I won't walk into a Walmart for anything. By the time you add up all the different countries that product is imported from through Walmart, more money spent in Walmart leaves the COUNTRY than stays in our local town (unless our town is Bentonville, Arkansas).

[kona0197]

I see you edited your post. You did say you shopped at Walmart. Whatever man. Progress will not stop just because you think it should. You'll soon see your Mom and Pop stores close. It's a global economy now. You can either choose to eat at a chain like Carl's or go hungry since you will not shop at walmart.

Personally I think you need to rethink your choices.

[Shell72]

. Progress will not stop just because you think it should. You'll soon see your Mom and Pop stores close. .

You almost sound happy that people are having thier family livelihoods shut down in favor of the corporate machine..