Exploring religious theory

[Misshalfway]

Hold yer horses Misshalfway!

Vanhin

Sorry?

[DigitalShadow]

Really? 0% eh? no evidence what so ever? There is not one shred of evidence that compels you to continue these conversations. Whatever......

I said emperical evidence. That doesn't include anecdotal or "spiritual" evidence

[Misshalfway]

I said emperical evidence. That doesn't include anecdotal or "spiritual" evidence

O....kay. I understand. :) Relief! You were scaring me there for a minute.

Could we talk more about what you see as spiritual evidence then? From your point of view?

[Vanhin]

I believe that there is one truth, but we are incapable of determining it for certain and when people claim to know something with absolute certainty they are only closing their mind off to other possibly valid ideas.

Thanks so much for humoring me and clearing this up.

There's your trouble, brother! And I say it with all the love in my heart (considering we don't really know eachother that well).

I don't see how there is any kind of evidence, including the various methods, scientific, or otherwise, that would validate the existence of God to you, if what you say is in fact the case.

How about yourself, do you exist?

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Sorry?

Oh, no worries. That didn't quite come out like I intended. Rock on! :)

Vanhin

[Misshalfway]

I believe that there is one truth, but we are incapable of determining it for certain and when people claim to know something with absolute certainty they are only closing their mind off to other possibly valid ideas.

I agree with this too and I so see what you are saying here. I guess that I pose the question Do we really need that kind of provable certainty before we believe or trust enough to follow?

There are times though when I know things. Not all things mind you.....not scientificly proveable things. Things that are only for me to know.....or important for me in the context of my life. Like the other day, I am at the store and have this feeling like 'buy a fire extinguisher'. Where did that come from? Well, I summarily dismissed it. Friday, my oven burst into flames. The fire department was here. I was a big show for the neighborhood. Two trucks and an ambulance! What a hooplah! All was fine. But I will tell you, I went out the next day and bought three!

[Misshalfway]

Oh, no worries. That didn't quite come out like I intended. Rock on! :)

Vanhin

I know I can get mouthy! :) Been talking to DS for a while now. I think he puts up with me!

[Vanhin]

I know I can get mouthy! :) Been talking to DS for a while now. I think he puts up with me!

Oh no I didn't mean anything like that. You are kind, generous, and respectable in your conversations with people, and one of my favorites out here.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[DigitalShadow]

I don't see how there is any kind of evidence, including the various methods, scientific, or otherwise, that would validate the existence of God to you, if what you say is in fact the case.

You are correct. This is the problem that I've been trying to explain to people since arriving on these forums with limited success. I think you may be one of, if not the first person to understand it so well.

How about yourself, do you exist?

The fact that I can ponder that question, leads me to believe that I probably do exist by most definitions of the word. Can I say for certain? No. Does it really matter? No. All I can do is try to make sense of the world around me and enjoy the experience we call life. That's really all anyone can do, but many people like to feel like everything including their life has purpose, or that some higher power is looking out for them. That is essentially the origin of religion, whether a current one is right or not, I don't think that many people will dispute that the first religions were born out of this basic human need.

[DigitalShadow]

I know I can get mouthy! :) Been talking to DS for a while now. I think he puts up with me!

Don't worry, it is actually pretty difficult to offend me and I usually enjoy spirited discussions :)

[Guest tomk]

DS:

Are you waiting for us to say something that will make sense to you?

[Misshalfway]

Oh no I didn't mean anything like that. You are kind, generous, and respectable in your conversations with people, and one of my favorites out here.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Shucks!

[DigitalShadow]

DS:

Are you waiting for us to say something that will make sense to you?

Most of what the people say here makes sense to me. I can usually put myself in their shoes and see where they are coming from (and I usually do, because I find it widens my perspective). I'm somewhat strange because I always like to hear both sides to every story. It's easy to simply hear one side and be all for it, but usually if you take the time to hear and understand both sides, nothing is as black and white as it originally seemed.

So why do I come here? Quite simply because I enjoy the discussions and the company. Many things that have been said here have inspired thought even if they didn't change my opinion. To me, the pursuit of truth is never ending. To settle on one thing as absolutely true to the exclusion of all other ideas is not something I see myself ever doing. That doesn't mean I can't explore options and see what makes the most sense for me though.

[Guest tomk]

Most of what the people say here makes sense to me. I can usually put myself in their shoes and see where they are coming from (and I usually do, because I find it widens my perspective). I'm somewhat strange because I always like to hear both sides to every story. It's easy to simply hear one side and be all for it, but usually if you take the time to hear and understand both sides, nothing is as black and white as it originally seemed.

So why do I come here? Quite simply because I enjoy the discussions and the company. Many things that have been said here have inspired thought even if they didn't change my opinion. To me, the pursuit of truth is never ending. To settle on one thing as absolutely true to the exclusion of all other ideas is not something I see myself ever doing. That doesn't mean I can't explore options and see what makes the most sense for me though.

Fair enough.

I don't think that embracing the LDS Faith makes me close-minded. Quite the opposite. As the Lord tutors me, I find my mind opened to lots of ideas that I had not considered before!

What makes me so adamant about my faith are those experiences. I want everyone to taste as I have tasted!

[Vanhin]

You are correct. This is the problem that I've been trying to explain to people since arriving on these forums with limited success. I think you may be one of, if not the first person to understand it so well.

I'm just glad you didn't say something like, "Absolute truth does not exist.", which would in and of itself be a statement of absolute truth. :)

The fact that I can ponder that question, leads me to believe that I probably do exist by most definitions of the word. Can I say for certain? No. Does it really matter? No.

Yes, the fact that we are self-aware is proof that absolute truth exists. If absolute truth does not exist, then we wouldn't be here to even consider these questions. Then it would not matter.

And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.(2 Nephi 2)

All I can do is try to make sense of the world around me and enjoy the experience we call life. That's really all anyone can do, but many people like to feel like everything including their life has purpose, or that some higher power is looking out for them. That is essentially the origin of religion, whether a current one is right or not, I don't think that many people will dispute that the first religions were born out of this basic human need.

Or life really does have a purpose, and we are meant to find that purpose. That really explains why people want religion more than anything else. I think what gives people the basic need for religion is the light of truth.

God did not just place us here to figure it out completely on our own. Each of us have within us something we brought with us from our heavenly abode. We call it the light of truth, or the light of Christ. One of the manifestations of the light of Christ, is conscience. It helps us choose between right and wrong. The purpose of the light of Christ, is to lead us to truth, and ultimately to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Then we will receive a greater witness, even the Holy Ghost, to guide us, sanctify us, and help us return back to the presence of our Father. Throughout all of this, the light of truth will continue in us helping us obtain more light and truth until we have received it all. Here's another scripture to consider:

And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness. That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day. And again, verily I say unto you, and I say it that you may know the truth, that you may chase darkness from among you;(D&C 50:23-25)

The scriptures sometimes refer to this light as intelligence. Here is some more interesting reading on the topic: Guide to the Scriptures: Light, Light of Christ, Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[DigitalShadow]

Fair enough.

I don't think that embracing the LDS Faith makes me close-minded. Quite the opposite. As the Lord tutors me, I find my mind opened to lots of ideas that I had not considered before!

What makes me so adamant about my faith are those experiences. I want everyone to taste as I have tasted!

Close-minded is a word that has a lot of negative connotations attached to it (kind of like atheist). I certainly don't believe you are close-minded as a person, but I do believe that faith in a religion requires closing your mind to other possibilities to some extent, and that is the part I have the most problem with.

[Guest tomk]

Close-minded is a word that has a lot of negative connotations attached to it (kind of like atheist). I certainly don't believe you are close-minded as a person, but I do believe that faith in a religion requires closing your mind to other possibilities to some extent, and that is the part I have the most problem with.

I agree with you, there.

God wants us to honor our commitments and covenants. I am not sure I can do that while investigating another religion. I feel like I am being a bit "unfaithful" to Him. Do you see how that might be true?

Like in a marriage. We wouldn't make our spouse feel very good if every morning we woke-up and announced, "I am not sure if I love you today. Let's see how things go." Just as such a wishy-washy level of commitment is not satisfactory in a marriage, neither is such satisfactory to the Lord. He wants our loyalty and fielty.

Is there truth to be found in Catholicism? Certainly!

Is there truth to be found in the Protestant faiths? Absolutely!

Is there truth to be found in Muslim or Jewish faiths? Without a doubt!

There is a lot of good stuff in other religions and philosophies -- including the scientific method!! I embrace whatever truths they can yield, but always with my foundation in Christ and what I believe to be His true church as my sounding board.

I believe the fullness of truth is to be found in the LDS Faith. The witness I have of the Book of Mormon is part of that foundation (for me).

[DigitalShadow]

Or life really does have a purpose, and we are meant to find that purpose. That really explains why people want religion more than anything else. I think what gives people the basic need for religion is the light of truth.

God did not just place us here to figure it out completely on our own. Each of us have within us something we brought with us from our heavenly abode. We call it the light of truth, or the light of Christ. One of the manifestations of the light of Christ, is conscience. It helps us choose between right and wrong. The purpose of the light of Christ, is to lead us to truth, and ultimately to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Then we will receive a greater witness, even the Holy Ghost, to guide us, sanctify us, and help us return back to the presence of our Father. Throughout all of this, the light of truth will continue in us helping us obtain more light and truth until we have received it all. Here's another scripture to consider:

And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness. That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day. And again, verily I say unto you, and I say it that you may know the truth, that you may chase darkness from among you;(D&C 50:23-25)

The scriptures sometimes refer to this light as intelligence. Here is some more interesting reading on the topic: Guide to the Scriptures: Light, Light of Christ, Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences)

This is the way I view religion throughout history:

At first belief in Gods gave people a feeling of security in war-torn times (my God is more powerful than yours and will protect me!). Then, as societies became more peaceful, belief in God more served the purpose of explaining the world around them where knowledge was lacking. Now, as our scientific knowledge increased (while we obviously don't know everything or even close, but the number of mysteries in the world has decreased significantly), religion is looked to for a sense of purpose and in general is in a state of decline around the world. Many people now only have a weak "just in case" belief in their religion and some dismiss it alltogether as a vestigial artifact of older times that is perpetuated mostly by culture now. I wouldn't say that I completely agree with that conclusion, but I do think that it is possibility that should be examined.

I think that both your theory and my theory are rational conclusions and I can't say which is right with absolute certainty so i won't rule either of them out, but I will say that I lean more towards the theory I just stated because it makes more sense to me.

[Guest tomk]

This is the way I view religion throughout history:

At first belief in Gods gave people a feeling of security in war-torn times (my God is more powerful than yours and will protect me!). Then, as societies became more peaceful, belief in God more served the purpose of explaining the world around them where knowledge was lacking. Now, as our scientific knowledge increased (while we obviously don't know everything or even close, but the number of mysteries in the world has decreased significantly), religion is looked to for a sense of purpose and in general is in a state of decline around the world. Many people now only have a weak "just in case" belief in their religion and some dismiss it alltogether as a vestigial artifact of older times that is perpetuated mostly by culture now. I wouldn't say that I completely agree with that conclusion, but I do think that it is possibility that should be examined.

I think that both your theory and my theory are rational conclusions and I can't say which is right with absolute certainty so i won't rule either of them out, but I will say that I lean more towards the theory I just stated because it makes more sense to me.

Not sure about that! To know that the number of mysteries has decreased significantly, you would first have to quantify how many there are to begin with, which cannot be done.

[Vanhin]

This is the way I view religion throughout history:

At first belief in Gods gave people a feeling of security in war-torn times (my God is more powerful than yours and will protect me!). Then, as societies became more peaceful, belief in God more served the purpose of explaining the world around them where knowledge was lacking. Now, as our scientific knowledge increased (while we obviously don't know everything or even close, but the number of mysteries in the world has decreased significantly), religion is looked to for a sense of purpose and in general is in a state of decline around the world. Many people now only have a weak "just in case" belief in their religion and some dismiss it alltogether as a vestigial artifact of older times that is perpetuated mostly by culture now. I wouldn't say that I completely agree with that conclusion, but I do think that it is possibility that should be examined.

I think that both your theory and my theory are rational conclusions and I can't say which is right with absolute certainty so i won't rule either of them out, but I will say that I lean more towards the theory I just stated because it makes more sense to me.

Right on. And if you ever do get to a point where you feel a desire to seek out God and you have at least a particle of faith, I do hope that you will remember some of the things we have told you about. As someone who has reached into the bag, unwrapped the candy and popped it in my mouth, I can tell you it is sweet and pure, and true. When the day happens that you taste it's sweetness, I should like to hear your thoughts on the matter then. Then I think that we won't even have to try to explain it to each other, because we both will know what it tastes like, and that it is good.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[DigitalShadow]

Not sure about that! To know that the number of mysteries has decreased significantly, you would first have to quantify how many there are to begin with, which cannot be done.

Every time a mystery of the world is solved there is indeed one less mystery, however given an infinite set of mysteries that exist to begin with, the word "significant" would be irrelevant in that context. Point taken. I retract that statement an replace it with: "We do now know significantly more about the world around us".

[Guest tomk]

Every time a mystery of the world is solved there is indeed one less mystery, however given an infinite set of mysteries that exist to begin with, the word "significant" would be irrelevant in that context. Point taken. I retract that statement an replace it with: "We do now know significantly more about the world around us".

Okay, I'm being a stinker here -- but DO WE REALLY KNOW "SIGNIFICANTLY" MORE ABOUT THE WORLD AROUND US?

Again, we'd have to have as our foundation a knowledge of what is there to be known? How much is there to be known? Once we know that, we can look at our current body of knowledge and make a judgement. "We know 5% of all there is to be known in the world (or solar system, or universe, whatever).

[DigitalShadow]

Okay, I'm being a stinker here -- but DO WE REALLY KNOW "SIGNIFICANTLY" MORE ABOUT THE WORLD AROUND US?

Again, we'd have to have as our foundation a knowledge of what is there to be known? How much is there to be known? Once we know that, we can look at our current body of knowledge and make a judgement. "We know 5% of all there is to be known in the world (or solar system, or universe, whatever).

In comparison to the body of knowledge we had 10000 years ago, I would say the body of knowledge we have now is significantly greater. Compared to the infinite set of knowledge that exists in the universe it is all insignificant, but I was only comparing to what we had before. Did we have any idea what caused rain or other weather patterns? Did we have any idea what the stars in the sky were? Did we know what caused various illnesses? No, we had to rely on supernatural and superstitious explainations for all of those. That was my only point.

[Misshalfway]

I can see how some religions genuinely do require one to close their mind. It is not something I have observed in the LDS doctrine.

[DigitalShadow]

I can see how some religions genuinely do require one to close their mind. It is not something I have observed in the LDS doctrine.

I will say that from an outsider's perspective, the LDS church has been far more open minded than most. If it weren't for that fact I wouldn't even be here. I would like to point out that I would have been banned from most christian boards by now, probably even some of the more strict LDS ones too :)