Exploring religious theory

[japacific]

He's done worse than that before though.

[skalenfehl]

He has sent a flood to destroy the earth, but mankind at the time was beyond preaching to. It would be appropriate to say that God would not do anything contrary to the laws of righteousness.

[japacific]

Back in the day he commanded stuff like that all the time.

When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canannites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger then you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make not covenant with them and show no favor to them' (Deuteronomy 7:1-2).

"'When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself, and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you. Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes" (Deuteronomy 20:10-17).

"'Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not know man intimately, spare for yourselves' (Numbers 31:17-18)."

That's your god right?

[Misshalfway]

You don't seem to like the answers we give you, even though they are fundamental to our faith.

This is a pretty good point/observation. In my case I am familiar with the theology and wouldn't worship this posited God even if he were proven true. Something that I mentioned to some nice missionaries who came by about three weeks ago.

Why?

[Misshalfway]

DS, I watched that little skeptics clip you posted earlier. I actually watched it a few days ago. So enjoyable!!! Bet that guy loves going to work everyday. He was having way to much fun!!!

I was thinking also about the whole food analogy. And it was the little drug finder dud device that helped me see it. The truth really isn't about who says it is true. Although, it is good to listen to those with experience. The makers of the dud drug finder most likely knew their product was ineffective, but their apparent greed was eventually revealed.

I think that it is the same with eternal truth. By their fruits ye shall know them. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. What does happen to someone's life when they apply the teachings of the church? When the pray multiple times a day, and employ daily scripture study, and who chooses to improve their character thru practicing the commandments? That proof, I believe is measurable with logical reasoning.

And just one more thing.......

The above clip did confirm that even science needs to be debunked sometimes.

Alma ch 32

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your dmind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

[sgallan]

Why?

The conservative western American version of God, and it's hereafter, doesn't interest me.

[Moksha]

"'Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not know man intimately, spare for yourselves' (Numbers 31:17-18)."

That's your god right?

No, these were the thoughts of men who are pretending it comes from God. These are the less than sacred parts among the collection of Sacred Allegory.

[Andrew777]

I find it fascinating that so many people have unquestioning belief in something that can only be verified through their own personal experience of receiving thoughts and feelings, and furthermore that some people go so far as to criticize others for not having the same subjective experiences (I'm not talking about you, relax tom) or drawing the same conclusions from them. In extreme cases, people will even die and kill for these beliefs.

There have been a multitude of religions in this world throughout history and one can even track the change of religions to fit the need of the cultures at the time. People nowdays have no trouble dismissing ancient religions and even current ones they don't agree with as mythology and superstition, but when I take it one logical step farther and dismiss their beliefs just as easily, I am met with much hostility, especially here in America. People are more than willing to believe that everyone else is capable of fooling themselves into believing something is true, but when it comes to their own beliefs they are sure that it could not possibly be false.

Atheists usually get pretty upset when you make fun of their beliefs too and tell them that what they think isn't true. They get pretty hostile, sometimes you even just have to mention to an atheist that you're a theist and they get hostile, like it's an affront to their very existence. Atheists have also fought over beliefs and philosophies, they also seem to be really into subjective human experiences and culture as basis for forming moral and philosophical codes. Yes, atheists have fought, murdered and died for those beliefs.

[Andrew777]

Back in the day he commanded stuff like that all the time.

When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canannites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger then you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make not covenant with them and show no favor to them' (Deuteronomy 7:1-2).

"'When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself, and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you. Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes" (Deuteronomy 20:10-17).

"'Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not know man intimately, spare for yourselves' (Numbers 31:17-18)."

That's your god right?

You do realize that this is what people did back then and how they waged war, as terrible to us modern western people as it is.

[skalenfehl]

When God's people were wicked and beyond prophesying to for their own benefit, when they were beyond words and saving, God himself destroyed them or allowed them to be destroyed. Many examples are found in the Bible such as the great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jerusalem around 600 b.c. and so on.

When a field is white ready to be harvested, the wheat is gathered and stored while the tares are destroyed, usually by fire. This is the way of the Lord.

[bert10]

Digital Shadow.

My answer shall be different. Than all the others on this board. At least I think.

The true Religion of the Lord is this:

1. To love GOD with all of one's might, mind and soul.

2. To love our neighbors as like unto ourselves.

Upon These Two Commandments Rests the Laws Of All The Prophets. If you do this two things....then God will take a hand in your life and direct you in the path you should follow.

These two commandments of God will allow you to life of full of Charity towards your brothers and sisters...which is better to defined to means "Pure Love of God in action."

And the law is....what you do to your fellows...It is as if you are doing it to God.

No one who LIVES Matthew 22:37 - 39 below shall fail and not be acknowledge nor be directed by God Himself.

Matthew 22:37 - Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Matthew 22:38 - This is the first and great commandment.

Matthew 22:39 - And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:40 - On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

LDS are the better religion and no one who really understand Israel can say the opposite. For our church has followed a parallel path. Just a few examples....For example Israel was totally removed and exiled Twice...so were we we. Israel lost their first two temples so did we.

Peace be unto you

bert10

Disclaimer: This thread is not for the philosophically faint of heart. I am not a member of any church and this thread will explore my thoughts on religion in general. What I am looking for is a deep philosophical discussion rather than references to scriptural doctrine since I am exploring the concept of religion in general as opposed to looking for LDS specific answers. If you do not have an open mind or are easily offended by opposing viewpoints, feel free not to read or contribute to this thread.

Alright, so my question is about religion and what leads a person to it. I contend that there is no way to objectively prove that one religion is true while others are false (if you disagree, please state why and give evidence to support your claim). This means that belief in religion based solely on the subjective human experience.

I find it fascinating that so many people have unquestioning belief in something that can only be verified through their own personal experience of receiving thoughts and feelings, and furthermore that some people go so far as to criticize others for not having the same subjective experiences (I'm not talking about you, relax tom) or drawing the same conclusions from them. In extreme cases, people will even die and kill for these beliefs.

There have been a multitude of religions in this world throughout history and one can even track the change of religions to fit the need of the cultures at the time. People nowdays have no trouble dismissing ancient religions and even current ones they don't agree with as mythology and superstition, but when I take it one logical step farther and dismiss their beliefs just as easily, I am met with much hostility, especially here in America. People are more than willing to believe that everyone else is capable of fooling themselves into believing something is true, but when it comes to their own beliefs they are sure that it could not possibly be false.

I take the position that I have not seen enough evidence to proclaim any church to be absolutely true and yet ironically I am usually accused of pride and arrogance by the people presuming to know the word of God as a fact.

I guess the bottom line is that I would like to know if there is a good reason to hold beliefs that are based solely on the subjective experience of feeling God's presence? I'm certainly not saying it is a bad thing, but I hear many making the claim that it is necessary for a happy life to believe X religion faithfully. This wouldn't be so much of a dilemma if there weren't so many religions out there with the same claim but different beliefs and no objective evidence to support any of them.

Thoughts, anyone?

[MaidservantX]

The wind blows and we feel it. Wind exists.

The sun shines and we feel it. The sun -- so far away! -- exists.

We eat a big bowl of ice cream at midnight and we can feel the heartburn.

We feel a lot of things. Feeling is a very acceptable way to receive input information upon which to base conclusions.

The Holy Ghost and the Spirit cause sensations in the human body (including the mind and heart) that can be felt, yes. But they are forces in the universe that (likely) come to us over great distances (or where from?), not internal electrical and chemical (emotional) processes. Our bodies are instruments capable of capturing input from the Holy Ghost.

It's not a mental theory that can be laid out. It will and always will be experiential. It is a journey that no one can take for another (parable of the ten virgins' oil in the lamp). A person can only trust -- yes, trust -- enough to take a few steps into the promises that Jesus Christ has given us. There is no other way by which these things can be understood or become of any use to an individual.

[lilered]

Originally Posted by DigitalShadow

Disclaimer: This thread is not for the philosophically faint of heart. I am not a member of any church and this thread will explore my thoughts on religion in general. What I am looking for is a deep philosophical discussion rather than references to scriptural doctrine since I am exploring the concept of religion in general as opposed to looking for LDS specific answers. If you do not have an open mind or are easily offended by opposing viewpoints, feel free not to read or contribute to this thread.

Alright, so my question is about religion and what leads a person to it. I contend that there is no way to objectively prove that one religion is true while others are false (if you disagree, please state why and give evidence to support your claim). This means that belief in religion based solely on the subjective human experience.

I find it fascinating that so many people have unquestioning belief in something that can only be verified through their own personal experience of receiving thoughts and feelings, and furthermore that some people go so far as to criticize others for not having the same subjective experiences (I'm not talking about you, relax tom) or drawing the same conclusions from them. In extreme cases, people will even die and kill for these beliefs.

There have been a multitude of religions in this world throughout history and one can even track the change of religions to fit the need of the cultures at the time. People nowdays have no trouble dismissing ancient religions and even current ones they don't agree with as mythology and superstition, but when I take it one logical step farther and dismiss their beliefs just as easily, I am met with much hostility, especially here in America. People are more than willing to believe that everyone else is capable of fooling themselves into believing something is true, but when it comes to their own beliefs they are sure that it could not possibly be false.

I take the position that I have not seen enough evidence to proclaim any church to be absolutely true and yet ironically I am usually accused of pride and arrogance by the people presuming to know the word of God as a fact.

I guess the bottom line is that I would like to know if there is a good reason to hold beliefs that are based solely on the subjective experience of feeling God's presence? I'm certainly not saying it is a bad thing, but I hear many making the claim that it is necessary for a happy life to believe X religion faithfully. This wouldn't be so much of a dilemma if there weren't so many religions out there with the same claim but different beliefs and no objective evidence to support any of them.

Digital Shadow - It seems to me that the basis of your beliefs are:

If I can see it, touch it, or smell it, then I believe it. If it doesn't then I don't. The good reason you seek is really simple in my minds eye. Gods plan is a plan of order and patterns. One can read the Bible both the OT & NT and see that this is true.

Faith starts by one having a desire to know if the Gospel is true! Do you have such a desire?

If the answer is No, then why persue it any further?

If the answer is yes, then Gods plan/pattern is the same oday as it was O.T. & N.T.. In those days, he told his followers : Ask the father in Prayer.

N.T. John7:

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My adoctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 If any man will ado his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own aglory: but he that seeketh his bglory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Alma 32:

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a aseed. Now, if ye give place, that a bseed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own alikeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your aknowledge bperfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your cfaith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your dmind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is alight; and whatsoever is light, is bgood, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.

38 But if ye aneglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your aground is bbarren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.

40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the atree of life.

41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with apatience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree bspringing up unto everlasting life.

42 And because of your adiligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the bfruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the brewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth cfruit unto you.

Bottom Line: Ask God in prayer. Most religions that I am aware of will tell you to get your answer concerning their particuliar belief by seeking confirmation by the spirit.

[japacific]

If God decided that a group of people could not be preached to anymore and asked you to kill all the men and women and save only the virgins for yourself, would you do it?

[lilered]

That is a dumb question. Sure if I knew that all who were saved were virgins and they would all be mine. :^)

First - remember God has still given us ways to discern the truth and know right from wrong.

That responsiblity is given to the "Holy Ghost" -

The understanding received from the Holy Ghost has three key aspects: first, it concerns the most critical and transcendent truths; second, it is definitive in its certainty; and third, it changes behavior.

Secondly - God loves man & women. Every one of us, and as such we know he would not give us such a commandment unless it was necessary. We have scriptoral evidence of times that God actually did this for his purposes. I.E. The Flood, Tower of Babel.

As for me personally, I would have to know for certaintly that it was Gods commandment to do so in light of his standing commandment "Thou shalt not kill" and Thou shalt alove the Lord thy God with all thy bheart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great acommandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt alove thy neighbour as thyself.

.

[DigitalShadow]

And yet, here you are. :)

We've explained ourselves to you the best we can.

Why do you keep coming back?

I don't say any of this in anger. I'm genuinely curious. Why are you here if you doubt us when we tell you "this is how we know" ???

Tell me again how these posts are helping you understand us better.

What are your desires as they relate to the LDS Faith?

Obviously you think the LDS Faith, indeed all faiths, are flawed, since they don't agree.

So why are you here?

You don't seem to like the answers we give you, even though they are fundamental to our faith.

Just trying to understand.

I am here in an attempt to understand and possibly accept religion in general. I did not come here to have what is presumed to be the truth simply handed down to me. I came here to have a true discussion such as this on the matter.

[DigitalShadow]

Thanks DigitalShadow for considering my words.

At least according to us, there really is no other way to gain spiritual knowledge than the process described in Alma 32. Faith is both the first principle of the Gospel, and prerequisite to receiving the witness of the Holy Ghost. Acting on faith, such as the example of planting the seed to see if it will grow, is also prerequisite. Just like the bag of candy, if my friends never taste it, they will never know it has taste or what it tastes like. Likewise, if you don't plant the seed, you will never know if it will grow, thereby proving that it is a good seed (a bad seed will not grow).

A skeptic, or unbeliever, would have to find away in themselves to muster up at least a desire to try the seed, before any progress can be made in this department. That is because even God honors our agency (free will).

I want to tell you how this "mysterious" Spirit is a better witness than anything that can be presented to our physical senses.

Before being born into mortality, we existed as spirit children of God. Our scriptures teach us that man is spirit (D&C 93:33). Spirit is not something mystical that is somehow unexplainable or incomprehendable. It is matter:

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; (D&C 131:7)

Joseph Smith taught that our spirit is our mind, the intelligent part about us (LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - The Great Plan of Salvation).

When I was a little kid, even before I could speak, I remember knowing what I wanted to say, but not having the words to say it. I kid you not, I actually remember that. The memory itself has faded over the years, and I don't remember specifics any more, but I do remember having that very experience. Being bilingual (Finnish/English), I sometimes run into a situation when switching between languages where I cannot recall the word I am trying to say in any language, but in my mind I know what I am wanting to say.

This is our spirit. It is our comprehension, our intelligence. Part of our Father's plan for us is to enter mortality. When we are born into mortality, our spirit enters a mortal body made of physical matter. This allows us to continue learning and growing, as children of God, in ways not possible without physical bodies. I don't fully understand it, but our scriptures teach that spirit and element inseparably connected results in a fullness of joy (D&C 93:33 again). That's the main reason we are here on this earth. One of the other reasons some of us are here, are to gain experiences, and to grow by learning the difference between good and evil, and hopefully choosing good. When we learn something, it is our spirit that comprehends it.

Our scriptures teach that Heavenly Father, and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone, but the Holy Ghost does not. The reason is evident from the following passage:

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. (D&C 130:22)

This allows the Holy Ghost to communicate directly with our spirits so that we comprehend Him without the limitations of the flesh. He speaks the language of our mind... our spirit. It is the toungue of angels:

Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost? Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do. (2 Ne. 32:2-3)

I used to love going on long drives with my dad. Looking back I realize that I learned so much from him that I didn't always give him credit for during times like that. He taught me that lying was not right, for example. He would said, "a lie by any other name is still a lie". I still remember those times when he taught me true principles, because the message was carried to my soul be the influence of the Holy Ghost. I know that lying is wrong, and that being honest is right because of the things I learned by the Spirit. Of course, I didn't always recognize the influence of the Spirit then, but now looking back, I recognize that that is what it was. The Spirit will testify of the truth; any and all truth (Moroni 10:5). I bet even you have felt the influence of the Holy Ghost speak to you heart and mind that something was true. Perhaps you simply did not recognize it for what it was.

I don't really mean to preach to you too much. I just hope that something in what I have told you inspires you to plant that seed, and try the experiment.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

I have already tried planting that seed. I think it may have died from not watering it enough, I'm not sure. In any case, I see your point and recognize that many people are guided by the "spirit" and it works well for them.

My point is that many people allow themselves to be guided by their "spirit." These people come to a staggering variety of conclusions based on that guidance. By definition then, being guided by the "spirit" is an unreliable method. It does not produce reproducable results and often leads people astray. I have seen nothing in this discussion or even these forums to refute this point other than people telling me "it doesn't matter what other people do" which is completely irrelevant since I don't care what they believe, their differing beliefs attest to how unreliable their method is.

[Moksha]

If God decided that a group of people could not be preached to anymore and asked you to kill all the men and women and save only the virgins for yourself, would you do it?

I could not see that coming from a God worth worshiping, could you?

[DigitalShadow]

We will not derail this thread with this because you want to stay on topic. :) I'm not sure who in your life has given you this argument and if they were someone that could intellectually give it to you..but digital..here is a little background knowledge on me. I am the grown daughter of a well know doctor in his area..a former athesist and all my life i have heard the arguements for evolution and then that same athesist gave his life to christ and then still did not give up evolution theory and then after careful study saw that their was more evidence for creation then evolution and speaks all over the country on this matter. I have seen the extreme ends to this argument and I concur there is more evidence for creation then evolution. But we will stay on topic here okay. maybe start a new thread just on this topic:)

I may have said this in a previous thread but I will restate it here since this seems to be a more relevant thread.

Religion is based on subjective evidence, I am not arguing that, but science does the same thing when they do not have answers that they do not want to have. For example, the ‘theory of evolution’ is stated as FACT since the only other feasible option is creation. Creation, in the minds of scientists, could not be true no matter how much evidence there is since that to believe in creation is to believe in God, and most scientists cannot accept that.

It is interesting to note the parallels in science and religion.

Theory is the same as or at least similar to faith. Both have no proof that they are true, people will often state theory of something, or faith in something, as truth. For an example the theory of evolution, or faith of the creation. People on both sides will discount the ‘proof’ of the other side since it will disprove their side and make him/her question his/her entire belief system. Most people are not ready for that kind of knowledge.

An evolution vs. creationism thread would go absolutely nowhere, I can tell you right now what would happen:

Some of the people would say that evolution happens and is one of the many tools of God. Then some of the people would say that evolution is the most rediculous theory they have ever heard and proceed to give an argument from incredulity. Then some people, atheist and LDS scientist alike would present much evidence that evolution does happen and speciation is indeed possible through evolution. Then the people who don't believe evolution will say that it doesn't "prove" anything and proceed to go on about how evolution "only" a theory (completely misunderstanding the scientific use of the word theory) and it will go on and on back and forth.

Been there, done that, no one's mind will change one way or the other :)

[DigitalShadow]

So much of what we receive from Father in terms of light and knowledge comes after we first desire it. I think Father allows all of these choices and allows men to choose what level of light they are satisfied. In the end, it would only be the power of God that could discern the hearts of the children of men.

I think their is a lot of wiggle room between being exalted and being condemned. We will be judged according to the light we accepted and the opportunities with which we were able to receive it.

This is why humility is an important element. Faith must be tempered with the willingness to put the will of God first. Again, another plug for the H.G. because it is thru this medium that the Father makes his will known to the individual -- even beyond the calling of prophets and the publishing of His words.

I know when I am doing my own will. I feel it. I feel when I am departing from the will of God. Sometimes I feel the warning before I act. Other times I recognize it when I have taken steps in a certain direction. But, if I commit my life and my attitude to NOT relying on the arm of the flesh, I find the help and influence I need to choose a path for myself. I am not perfect..... thank goodness for the grace and patience of God as he works with me until I learn all my lessons.

You make faith seem like something weak.....like something easy. Try walking on water sometime! It takes work...and discipline and humility to fight the doubt. It takes lots of work to nourish and maintain faith. It must be nurtured with study and understanding and wisdom and experience. Faith is not blind. The fruit of faith is light and knowledge and surety. But one must walk into the dark and believe there is light even though all the earthy senses say there is only darkness.

IMHO, it is easy to stay to the known. It is like staying on the dry ground while others swim. You can't know that you can swim until you get in!!!

I apologize if I implied that faith is somehow a sign of weakness. I know it is not an easy task, I am merely pointing out that it doesn't make sense to me. The fact that something is not easy does not make it inherently right. I have noticed that there are truly faithful of every faith who all feel that they are being guided to the right path and that all of the other truly faithful of other faiths are either slightly or very misguided. To me this is a good reason to be cautious of faith in general, especially since many attrocities are committed in the name of faith.

[DigitalShadow]

Now, here is something that will crank your gear: many people belief that religion only spawned because of evolution. The belief goes that mankind eventually evolved to a point where he could perceive his own death. So in order to cope with that, the idea of an after life was created. From there, God and religion. I for one disagree with that philosophical notion. However, you take it for what it's worth to you.

That's not a philosophical notion, it's is a scientific one. From the objective observable evidence that is the most logical conclusion. It does however tend to hurt many people's egos though. People (me included) like to think that humans are somehow special and not a part of some sort of 'accident'. It is a comforting thought to believe we were created with a purpose and that a greater being watches over and loves us. I am willing to seek out the truth of our origins no matter how humble or spectacular they may be.

[Vanhin]

I have already tried planting that seed. I think it may have died from not watering it enough, I'm not sure. In any case, I see your point and recognize that many people are guided by the "spirit" and it works well for them.

I believe you do see my point. I do appreciate you taking the time to consider the things I have written. I like your honesty in pointing out the possibility that it died because you didn't nourish it. If a plant dies because it wasn't nourished, you can't say that it was a bad seed, or a bad plant. But if it grows, and we nourish it, then it's a good seed. I encourage you to try again, this time with a determination to nourish it. It will bear fruit. Then you will know the truth like I do. For a wise reason, that we may not always understand, this is how God has designed it to work.

My point is that many people allow themselves to be guided by their "spirit." These people come to a staggering variety of conclusions based on that guidance. By definition then, being guided by the "spirit" is an unreliable method. It does not produce reproducable results and often leads people astray. I have seen nothing in this discussion or even these forums to refute this point other than people telling me "it doesn't matter what other people do" which is completely irrelevant since I don't care what they believe, their differing beliefs attest to how unreliable their method is.

I totally see what you mean. This whole world is full of people who claim that they are guided by divine means, yet often they are each led to different conclusions. No doubt there are even people of LDS faith, who feel that they are guided to believe a variety of false things. Consider the words of Jesus Christ:

Enter ye in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat; Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them.(3 Ne. 14:13-20)

Do you believe there is a God?

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[DigitalShadow]

As long as you don't worship anything, or anyone, that inspires you to fly airplanes into buildings, I'm ok with that!

What if your god asked you to fly an airplane into a building? Would you do it? That is the question.

That is a very good question! God would never ask me to fly an airplane into a building.

He's done worse than that before though.

He has sent a flood to destroy the earth, but mankind at the time was beyond preaching to. It would be appropriate to say that God would not do anything contrary to the laws of righteousness.

This brings up a good point that I have thought about many times before. The church believes in personal revelation. But what if people are revealed things that disagree with the teachings of the church? If you came to your bishop with these what do you think he would say? That these are not true revelation and that you must somehow be mistaken?

Are you only supposed to accept revelation if it confirms that the church is true? If so, what is the point?

Let's step back to a more general example. Let's say that you hear God tell you that the United States has become wicked and rife with sin. They need to be punished for their transgressions and you have been chosen to carry out the wrath of God Old Testament style. Should you listen to God then or should you dismiss His voice as a delusion? This does not appear to be outside the scope of God has done in the past so how can you say it is obviously unrighteous? You can say that God would never do that, but there are people on the other side of the world that believe just as strongly as you that it is indeed God's will, who is to say which one is right and why?

[DigitalShadow]

Atheists usually get pretty upset when you make fun of their beliefs too and tell them that what they think isn't true. They get pretty hostile, sometimes you even just have to mention to an atheist that you're a theist and they get hostile, like it's an affront to their very existence. Atheists have also fought over beliefs and philosophies, they also seem to be really into subjective human experiences and culture as basis for forming moral and philosophical codes. Yes, atheists have fought, murdered and died for those beliefs.

(bolding was mine)

I think that anyone would get upset if you "make fun of" their beliefs. What I was saying in my original post is that my beliefs themselves meet hostility. I have never "made fun of" anyone's beliefs.

Your phrasing gives me some insight into why atheists seem to get upset with you. It is true that there are some angsty atheists but most of them that I know are actually quite nice people and you probably don't even know that they are atheists since many tend to keep their beliefs to themselves to avoid the blatant bigotry of many Christians.

[ztodd]

This brings up a good point that I have thought about many times before. The church believes in personal revelation. But what if people are revealed things that disagree with the teachings of the church? If you came to your bishop with these what do you think he would say? That these are not true revelation and that you must somehow be mistaken?

Are you only supposed to accept revelation if it confirms that the church is true? If so, what is the point?

Let's step back to a more general example. Let's say that you hear God tell you that the United States has become wicked and rife with sin. They need to be punished for their transgressions and you have been chosen to carry out the wrath of God Old Testament style. Should you listen to God then or should you dismiss His voice as a delusion? This does not appear to be outside the scope of God has done in the past so how can you say it is obviously unrighteous? You can say that God would never do that, but there are people on the other side of the world that believe just as strongly as you that it is indeed God's will, who is to say which one is right and why?

If one has a testimony of and understands the order of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, that person would not need to consider such a possibility. Knowing that this church has the true full priesthood authority, such a commandment from God could not come to any old person- it must come from the Lord through the head of His church.

We only have the right to personal revelation with our own personal stewardships. We have no right to receive revelation on behalf of others outside our stewardship.