spirettedotter

Thank you all for your answers. Most of you prioritized the list the same as I do. 1. God/Gospel 2. Spouse 3. Children 4. Church 5. Job I asked the question because a FRIEND of mine, who has been in a position of leadership in the church most of his adult life, said he could NOT differentiate between God and church. He ordered his list: 1. God/Church 2. Spouse 3. Children I was just wondering what take most LDS folks would have on that. Because... To me, spouse should come second to God, then children next, before Church, then job last (as an ideal). Because we have stewardship over our family, more than our responsibility to the church as an organization. Nothing compensates for failure in the home, right? We can always grow and serve our spouse and children best if we are committed to God first and living the gospel, and I believe we have to put our family's needs above the needs of the Church. I agree that God and the gospel are perfect and flawless, but the Church is made up of humans who are imperfect and make mistakes. So the two (God and Church) have to be separable. Anyway, thank you all for responding. :)

1. Exactly where does Church and God rank in your priorities? Please arrange and number the following in order of your commitment and priorities... Church Spouse God Job Children 2. Do you differentiate between God and Church, or are they inseparable? Why? Please respond. Thanks.

I agree that no one is perfect; every one sins. And I agree it is really not our place to judge another. That is the Lord's job, and only he is qualified to truly know our hearts and all the true facts of the crimes done. However, when others touch our life with extreme wickedness that appears as irrefutable evil, it is very difficult NOT to acknowledge, judge, and name that wicked deed. And in the name of self protection and preservation, there is nothing wrong with making those distinctions, as long as we don't take justice into our own hands and try to take free agency away from others. I think when evil acts are committed, they can be rightly called evil acts. All souls are loved children of Heavenly Father, and have the option of repenting if they choose to with strong desire and determination, however difficult. But the problem is, as the book mentioned above states, those people do not repent because they refuse to acknowledge their evil acts. In order to commit those evil crimes, the sinner was likely traumatized themselves and conditioned to dissociate from their feelings about doing the evil. I believe that is what makes a person do wicked things. If a child is born into a way of life that accepts and even rewards wicked and evil practices, it would be difficult, if not impossible for them to break out of the spell or trance of which they were trained (purposely or coincidently) to fall into in order to commit the evil act. Who is to say when a child or person truly becomes accountable for their wicked and evil acts, if they knew no other way, and when are they capable or incapable of breaking free? As a parent, I see all of my children as having perfect and beautiful souls. But I don't like all of their choices in life. If one of my children were to commit an act that I know to be wrong, I would pray for their hearts to be softened, enlightened, and for them to have the desire and strength to learn to make better choices. When they were young, I would name their negative behaviors as bad, but I was always very careful never to say that "THEY were bad." I would always separate the behavior from the child. I'm sure that Heavenly Father feels the same way about His children who commit evil. Technically, I don't know that we can know if a person truly has a wicked or evil soul, or if they have just been hurt and conditioned to do the evil things they do. But I wish that we could all unite in fighting evil through prayer, education, and knowledge of the true enemy, Satan (who maybe felt hurt as a young spirit child somehow too/?). Whether we are calling these acting out people evil or or their behavior evil, I think it is just an issue of semantics. I often pray for those I think of as "bad guys," despite the offenses they've committed and how their actions have hurt me. I hope that we can all do they same.

I didn't mean I didn't WANT to defend my statements are true (of course I would like you all to believe me so that together in spiritual warfare, i.e. prayer, we can better protect God's children and do something to stop some of Satan's evil in the world) ...what I meant was I shouldn't HAVE TO defend my knowledge WITH PROOF. In any case, I agree with Tiancum, and will just add that the practice of SRA, especially when reinforced repetitively on gullible, terrified young children, does often create by elaborate deception a "craziness" in many of their victims. Ritual abusers use costumes, masks, and images in combination with torture, trauma, and near-death experiences ...on purpose, to make children believe they are being abused by aliens, reptiles, policemen, doctors, or even Disney characters (anything unbelievable). Then if they dare to remember the images and to speak out (as children or later as adults) about their wild "memories" that were created so that they have no credibility, of course it ensures that no one will believe them. Something had to have happened to them for them to think those "crazy" things. So there you have hurt people claiming to believe in aliens and reptilian shape-shifters, or whatever (all of which I don't believe in and never indicated I did). Those who believe in those wild concepts probably are all damaged victims of systematic abuse. In fact, I believe that most mental health labels are just an indication of severe trauma. Systematic abuse creates symptoms that make a person look and feel crazy, and sometimes really do make them dangerous to themselves or others. But there are many victims who are just as sane as anyone else, and have knowledge to share that could be beneficial to heed. Anyway, has anyone ever heard of "TAKE WHAT YOU WANT, AND LEAVE THE REST"? I think that would be a good principle to use here in the forum. And it feels a lot better to use respect, compassion, and consideration of others' feelings whether we agree with one another, or choose to disagree. In any case, we all have the right to free agency, and free-speech, as long as we can follow rules and not be hurtful to anyone. So thank you for reading my post, and for your efforts to keep the tone peaceful here.

As much as I enjoy all the attention I’ve gotten here, I can’t say I’ve been too impressed with the group interaction here. But at least there is ongoing conversation. I do have personal first hand experience in the issues I’ve posted about, and I know many others who do as well, in and out of the church. Anyone who does not want to believe, it is certainly your prerogative. I know what is true, and it is your loss if you choose to keep your eyes closed. I am not going to give into demands for proof, nor will I provide names here (even though I have that knowledge), because that is not what this forum is about, and it is simply not in my best interest. No amount of harassment will change that. My choice to withhold names surely doesn’t mean I’m incapable. It is my right to post or not post what I know, and I deserve as much respect as anyone else posting what they know to be true. I've had no other motive than to share true information to those who are interested and have been fortunate enough not to have had to deal with such issues themselves. It is not always in our best interest to seek proof, either. In Luke 11:29 it says, “This is an evil generation; they seek a sign.” What good is proof anyway, if you are determined that you already know the truth? The signs of the times and the wickedness in the world are telling enough. Gospel lessons teach us that evil exists, and always has, and it is prophecy that it is getting worse into the last days. I am not trying to shake your comfortable world by arguing or trying hard to convince you. There are plenty of signs that SRA exists, but most of you refuse to see even when you are presented with evidence, because it is too scary. Evidence and survivors exist all around us. You could see it for yourself if you would just opened your eyes to it and un-harden your hearts. There are plenty of examples in the scriptures of what happened to those who demanded proof. In Jacob, Sherem demands a sign and is smitten of God. Korihor was struck dumb for demanding a sign of proof. Pharoah sought sign after sign as proof, but no matter how much was presented, he still wouldn’t believe. Still, we are a stubborn lot and believing is difficult for many. But it might serve you better to be open minded. God destroyed everyone outside of Noah’s ark; it didn’t behoove them not to believe. Sometimes it is better just to allow information in without testing and scrutinizing it. “Blessed are they who believe without proof.” I try to use Jesus as my example. He did not buckle to harassment by the Pharisees in court trying to trick him into saying something they could attack. He wouldn’t provide miracles as proof for the unbelievers, and it wouldn’t have helped even if he did. And that doesn’t mean he was incapable of using his power that way. He wisely chose not to, because it was not necessary or in his best interest. Likewise, I know what is true, & why would I want to defend my true statements with proof for those of you who have already chosen not to believe? You are welcome to accept my statements at face value, or not, just the same as everyone else’s posts on the forum. I do not have to defend my statements or my character. Your judgments and attacks on my posts are on you. I know who I am, I know what my family has survived, and I know what is real. You all have your free agency to believe or not, but I hope we can treat one another with kindness in the meantime.

Yes, indeed you are assuming, and not basing your arguments on what I actually said. Within my posts I actually have not accused anyone, let alone high church leaders of being involved. I do not believe that our first presidency is involved in SRA practice. Why would I be a member of the Church if I believed that? But I'm not excluding that it could happen when the world becomes wicked enough. I am saying that evil is real and it is possible for the corruption to infiltrate the church. And I did specifically also agree that our prophet was exempt, because God has promised us a prophet would never lead us astray. The powerful high status figures I was referring to at this time are millionnaires, high status government officials, and many famous entertainers, many of which participate in the Bohemian Grove rituals. Yes, I do know of actual people who represent themselves as upstanding LDS members, and at the same time use the church as a front for SRA. And, no, I will not name any names here. But you can research for yourself.

The amount of work put into trying to prove SRA doesn't exist is quite impressive. I wonder why it is of such importance (to someone who has never been personally touched by such horrific trauma) to sway others not to believe it occurs... Not to mention that all of the arguments are faulty, and merely opinions and twists of partial facts originally fabricated by those who have reason to cover up the true evidence that SRA is a real practice. Such "indicators" as were posted mean nothing to the many survivors who know first hand that SRA does indeed exist and does terrible ongoing damage to its surviving victims. All the so called evidence and statistics you want to utilize doesn't change what actually occurs. It only reinforces that people don't want to hear the truth and may go to any lengths to deny it. Recovered memories may not be 100% accurate (and are usually not claimed to be but a part of the puzzle recreating a crime) just by nature of the way they were stored in our bodies, sometimes even from a preverbal age. There is bound to be some confusion, especially during abuse that purposely and intently uses deception and tricks to make the memories less credible. But the fact is it is startling how much similarity there is between survivors' stories of all ages, children and adults, from all over different parts of the world, some from memories that were recovered, and some from memories never forgotten. How many of us remember clearly all of our experiences from very young childhood and up? How many of us can recall minute for minute our experiences from just the other day? And when we do remember common memories, are they returned to us as detailed infallible images as viewed or portrayed in a movie, or do they involve subtle parts from all our senses that we accept as reliable because they make sense to our existing reality? Similar to how our testimonies ring true to our souls, and heal our hearts. There are many who study how the mind works, and the nature of memory, and accept that recovered memories are valid and valuable in healing from our pasts. How many of us can't remember much of our childhoods at all, and why do some of us have such vacant blocks in our past? Trauma accounts for most lost childhood memories. Trauma resurfaces by the mind and body re-living and re-experiencing painful events. No one, including a therapist can falsify memories and feelings and physical experiences into another person's mind and body. Our feelings never lie; they are our most reliable truth checker. Feelings are real, whether we try to deny them or rationalize why we feel them. There is no such thing as a "False Memory Syndrome." It is something the bad guys made up to cover up the truth. The fact is that Satanists do get away with murder, literally. And no, there are not very many convictions made based on the concept of cult crime, because people don't want to know the truth. It would be hard, if not impossible, to convince a jury of non-believers or a corrupt judge. The acts and cover up of SRA groups have become so sophisticated over all the thousands of years they've had to perfect them, that evidence is rarely exposed. When the label of SRA is left out of the court case, often those same crimes are easier to convict. No one wants to believe in SRA, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't occur. Commonality of experiences is one fact that does support and validate the truth for survivors. But most of you people will never know this, because you are not open to hearing these stories from those who have lived through them first hand. Many survivors are successful and educated professionals, and folks from all sorts of walks of life, with varied backgrounds. But what survivors would share their stories openly to those who would only attempt to argue, deny, and invalidate their reality? The state of the world today should be enough to see how evil is influencing mankind, even the babes who are younger and younger every generation turning to killing and violence, acting out the things that are perpetrated against many of them. Just because you can't see the SRA cults in action, doesn't make them less real. The effects of their systematic abuse are here to be seen. The same argument could be applied to our beliefs and faith in God. We can't see Heavenly Father, but that doesn't make Him any less real. Blessings are here for us to see and feel in our hearts. …just as the effects of terrible crimes and corruption are visible in the world today. Many years ago no one ever dared speak about sexual abuse. But it has always occurred, none the less. Now that more people are coming forth and ready to disclose their abuse experiences, in hopes to stop the secrecy and expose the perpetrators, why can't we listen with an open heart, and accept their stories without condemnation or judgment? Instead of arguing about how frequent the occurrence and how many bad guys there are, why not agree on the heinousness of the crime and the need to accept survivors and protect our children from danger? What are you gaining by not being willing to believe these women, children, and men who have lived and survived these unbelievable traumas? What or who are you trying to protect? These things are spoken about in the very scriptures that we live by. If they occurred in the olden days, why can’t you conceive that they occur in secret still? Those who close their minds and refuse the knowledge, refuse to aid even with compassion to those affected, and with united prayer of the good saints against the evil works, for protection of our children, they are guilty of perpetuating the continuation of corruption.

One final word I will add is that I believe education and spiritual warfare is our best defense against SRA and corruption. I know that the power of God is stronger than evil, and there are more good Christians in the world than there are bad guys. So if we can just stop arguing about whose experiences you want to believe are real and whose you don't choose to believe, and just care enough about all of Heavenly Father's children and pray together for knowledge of the truth and protection of the children, maybe it would help to even out the evil works being done.

Of course it is more comfortable to believe what "they" want you to believe when they cover up the truth and claim that all the survivors' stories are bogus. But whoever "they" are, whatever position they hold or influence they have, either they don't want to know the truth because they can't handle it and it will shake their faith, or they know the truth and don't want us to know. Either way, I can say with surety that SRA happens and is very real. As I said it is difficult to prove because of the secrecy and the extent of cover up. I know what I know, Heavenly Father knows the hearts and actions of His children, and just because others don't care to believe the truth, doesn't change what is real. I guess I'm wasting my time here.

I know about this first hand, because I married a Satanist in the temple. My life & my children's lives will never be the same because of the trauma we've suffered. I've since met many survivors who's stories of SRA are similar to things my youngest child reported. The symptoms from these kinds of experiences take a life time to heal.

To answer the original topic posted by Gaea, YES, Satanists CAN most definitely infiltrate the Church, & unfortunately they are trying to, of course deceitfully without us knowing or seeing it. They are among us. Not at the very top leading the first presidency of the Church at this time, thank God, else the Church would not be functioning with good works. And we are promised that the PROPHET will never lead us astray, so we can rely on that. But our own history in the scriptures show that corruption can certainly take over a whole people including the Church, & cause excessive wickedness in the people, enough to have caused Heavenly Father to want to annihilate whole groups of His children. We all have free agency to choose whom to serve & worship. Satan’s influence is very cunning and powerful, and has consumed many people throughout history into the present day. The closer we get to the Millennium, the more danger we, as a people, are in. Education and awareness is our best defense. I am not suggesting we live our lives in paranoia, but this topic is a very serious one that does need to be discussed. Satanic ritual abuse is a very REAL and horrible religious practice, and it exists here in our church as well as the Catholic church, and every other large organized religion. Our government is completely infiltrated and corrupt with Satanic cults, such as the Illuminati, and they do have power and influence in how our country is operating. Many of the comments on this thread have taken this topic lightly, but let me tell you that when it is YOUR loved ones being traumatized and damaged, it is a very heavy reality. The Church needs more awareness and education in how to deal with this very real issue. Unfortunately, most of us don't want to hear the ugly truths about it. Unless, and until, it touches our lives directly. Satanic ritual abuse (SRA) is not as uncommon as you might think. Thousands of SRA survivors throughout the world are telling their stories now, but more do not tell. They are not very often exposed at all, as the perpetrators are not caught and they do not admit it, so there is little chance of proving their evils in a court of law. That is the nature of SRA, to remain covert so it can exist as it has for thousands of years throughout history, as in the SECRET combinations of old. They ARE still being practiced. The simple definition of satanic ritual abuse is “severe systematic and repetitive criminal physical, emotional, psychological, sexual, and spiritual abuse of victims including brainwashing, sophisticated programming, torture, pornography, drug trafficking, animal and human sacrifice, and inflicting pain and guilt for power and control.” It is usually generational within families, and involves the worship of satan. Religious rituals are done in secret, usually at night, when everything taught in the light of day is inversed; Christian teachings become twisted and inverted into anti-Christian beliefs professing the power of the devil. This is not about atheism, anti-Christians, or even dabblers in witchcraft or sorcery, nor is it the kind of cult that teens join to be rebellious. This is about a very powerful movement that is underground and evil, and REAL, and it is comprised of many powerful high status figures. See ( Mr. Light & Associates, Inc. ) if interested in more information. The site is by a member of the Church who advocates for survivors of SRA. Is anyone here familiar with the Glen L Pace Memo ( Issue 80 - Salt Lake City Messenger ) ? In this memo, Pace, who is a member of the seventies, talks about interviewing (now hundreds of) LDS members who have suffered SRA within the church. It is so difficult to uncover and battle SRA because most victims are unable to talk about it, so it remains unknown. The nature of the abuse is that it is designed to be kept secret. It is successfully kept covert because the acts of abuse are so unbelievable, the victims themselves are in denial, no one thinks the disclosures could have credibility, because of threats and fear of disobedience, and because the abuse is blocked from the victims’ daytime memory. The trauma involved is so extreme that the abuse causes the brain to dissociate and repress the memories, even to the point of splitting the personality into successful daytime personalities that are not aware of what they participate in, and strong night time personalities that can handle the abuse without experiencing the full extent of feelings. People are conditioned from childhood, not only to survive these atrocities, but to mainstream in society without notice. You can't tell by looking at them who they are. To answer the issue of why Satanist would want to infiltrate our Church: that is their very way of existing. The adversary has always tried to overpower us: the age old concept of good vs. evil. Of course they would attack the true Church. They need our church, as well as other large churches organizations, to gain power, control, and prestige, and to hide their practices under an umbrella of good appearance. They have been known to use our church buildings, and possibly even our temples at night. They train their members from childhood to grow up & infiltrate society into positions of the medical field, legal field, social work, and politics so that they can be useful to their leaders. Why wouldn’t they work hard to appear worthy and to try to use positions in our Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS? I know first hand that there are Satanists in our Church who participate with us on Sundays, get temple recommends, and marry in the Temple. Sorry to say it, but it is the ugly truth.

We are told the Prophet cannot ever lead us astray. But church leaders, as in bishops, & stake leaders, etc, are also just mortal men, & are subject to making mistakes & hopefully always learning. We all hope that they will serve according to inspiration from the Spirit, & we may have a lot of faith in them as we support them in their callings, but the church leadership does need a lot more education in the issues of abuse & how they deal with abuse issues. In the last days, I believe it is part of prophecy that many of the elect will be deceived (the church is currently experiencing branching into all kinds of off-shoots from the true Church). This does include evil groups such as Satanists, who do definately use our Church, as well as other organizations, as a cover for their evil practices.