Vanhin

Yeah, that would have been a better quote to make matt's point, no doubt. However, they are all quotes from second hand accounts of the King Follet Discourse. What is significant is that Joseph Smith had the authority to make all those things scripture, and add them to the Doctrine and Covenants; thus they would have become official doctrine of the Church, but he did not. Some parts he did. Granted some of the things he said in that discourse, as written by those who were there, have been at least added to our lesson manuals. There's some truth there. But the part about God being not God at some point, is not in our scriptures, and is not our doctrine. What I quoted from the Book of Moses, as delivered through Joseph Smith, is our doctrine concerning God. "I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?...but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all." What would it be like, if the enemies of the Church simply tried to argue the merits of our actual doctrine? The stuff that we teach in Sunday school, and has been canonized... Here's another reminder: Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted. (LDS Newsroom - Approaching Mormon Doctrine) <- Click and read the whole article so you know. Regards, Vanhin

I've yet to see anything that he has asked about that hasn't been answered, or is even remotely troubling. How is not knowing the location of the stone box or the cave troubling, considering we don't have the plates either? How is the method(s) use by Joseph Smith to translate the Book of Mormon troubling? The only thing on that one, that I have seen, is that someone might be dismayed when it turned out to be different than what they tought it was. The Church doesn't teach anything contrary than that. Joseph Smith did it by the gift and power of God, regardless of whether he was gazing into a hat at a stone, or translating the book from thin air. Regards, Vanhin

Good Morning, Sure it does. Hopefully mattkearns555 will realize that the direction his posts are turning is obvious to us, and stop while he is ahead. That would definetly publish peace IMHO. Would it not? Regards, Vanhin

Evening HiJolly, Well, it wouldn't be in my power to deprive him of his views, nor do I think that my short message even implied anything like that. In fact, I am interested in his views. :) Regards, Vanhin

I personally don't have a problem with the answer "We don't know." Even more distinct proof would be the actual plates themselves in a museum somewhere for people to see. It's apparent that the Lord has left any physical proof out of our reach for now. Perhaps he wants us to gain our proof by a trial of faith instead. I'm assuming the question is, where is the cave? I think the same answer applies. We don't know. This is how I think about it. Let's say that the stone box was available, and archeologists were able to examine it. Let's say that they were accurately able to date it to around AD 421ish. That would be proof indeed, even without the plates. Would the world accept the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ then? Some might, but there would no doubt be those who would still reject the message, dispite the proof. They would be under greater condemnation because of that. Even those who accept the Gospel based on such proof would be on shaky ground, because it's not really about that kind of proof to begin with. I think the Lord in his wisdom keeps those things from us (for now anyway), so that we would approach him in faith from the get go, and therefore build upon a more sure foundation of faith and testimony. It also protects those who reject our message from greater condemnation, perhaps to give them the maximum opportunity to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and to remain true to their testimonies till the end. That's really what I believe. The way I see it, if there was a box, or a cave available for everyone to see then why not the plates as well? By the same token, why not just let us be born with a full recollection of the pre-mortal existence while we are at it? Because we would quickly sin against the greater knowledge in our mortal and corrupted state, and we would all be sons of perdition by now. A loving God let's us live by faith, to protect us from ourselves without taking away our agency. I'm sure my ramblings will do little to satisfy this question for you. I just hope there's something there that makes sense. :) Regards, Vanhin

Well based on the quote you provided, I would have to ask, where does it talk about "Creator Gods"? Joseph Smith is simply talking about what is written in the Bible. Here's the words of Paul, the Apostle: For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:5-6) You clearly don't know much about our doctrine, so I will help you. That's why you are here right? To learn, not to see how well you can best the Mormons... Here's officially (meaning from our scriptures) what we believe about Heavenly Father and His Christ: And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless? And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease. Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth. And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all. ... ... And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. (Moses 1:3-6,31-33) Regards, Vanhin

Hello JohnBirchSociety, I'm not kidding anybody. Perhaps I'm not a serious student of LDS history, if it means I have to be troubled by it. Maybe you could explain to me why a serious student of LDS history has to necessarily be troubled by it? Regards, Vanhin

That's right! :) I'm even surprised that YellowLight has been having trouble getting answers. Personally I haven't had any trouble, and I haven't seen anything that concerns me even a little bit about the history of the Church. Vanhin

I have always been taught that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. I'm not aware that the Church teaches anything that contradicts that. Elder Maxwell said the following about the methods used: Whatever the details of the process, it required Joseph’s intense, personal efforts along with the aid of the revelatory instruments. The process may have varied as Joseph’s capabilities grew, involving the Urim and Thummim but perhaps with less reliance upon such instrumentalities in the Prophet’s later work of translation. Elder Orson Pratt of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said Joseph Smith told him that he used the Urim and Thummim when he was inexperienced at translation but that later he did not need it, which was the case in Joseph’s translation of many verses of the Bible (see Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star, 11 Aug. 1874, 498–99). (Church Publications (HTML)) The Church has been quite open about how it was translated, and what we know about the process. I have known for a long time that Joseph used different instruments, like the Urim and Thummim, and sometimes no instrument during the translation process. Sometimes he didn't even have the plates where he could see them. On a personal level. Where did you serve as a missionary? I served in Finland myself. Sincerely, Vanhin

YellowLight, So, what are the questions? Was how the Book of Mormon was translated one of the big ones that bothers you? What else? Vanhin [Edit] We posted about the same time, so my message is a little out of place.

No offence, Aphrodite, God can answer all of our questions. That is the best advice we can give to anyone struggling with any problem in this life. Sometimes the answers come by way of scripture, and sometimes by way of another person or by some other way. If the answers are from God, they will be accompanied by the assuring power of the Holy Ghost. You will know it is the Holy Ghost, because you will be inspired to be better and to believe in Christ and in His Atonement. Regardless of whether there is an indepth discussion about these things, prayer is the #1 ingredient. I would be suspect of any advice that teaches us not to pray: And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray. But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul. (2 Ne. 32:8-9) Sicnerely, Vanhin

The right answer is of course, A (Gen. 2:6). But it was a tough choice between A and D. :) Vanhin

Sin (and Cain would rule over Satan). Genesis reads that God told Cain, "And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.". Clearly there is something missing in the account. Through modern revelation we know that this is what was said: If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him; (Moses 5:23) Vanhin

It's important that you do forgive. Which, by the way, is one more thing that a person has to do to be saved (in addition to just belief). The Savior taught it plainly when he said: For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matt. 6:14-15) And in this our dispensation the Lord said: Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. (D&C 64:9-10) The Lord will forgive murderers, but not the ones who murder after having been enlightened and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost (Heb. 6:4-6). Murder at that point constitutes blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. That's what we are talking about. Cain, for instance, became such a son of perdition. He talked with God, and knew what was right, and then he shed innocent blood. The scriptures acknowledge that murderers can be forgiven, we're not saying that. Take for instance a group of Lamanites from the Book of Mormon who had murdered and done all manner of evil. They repented and were baptized, and God forgave them their sins. As a result, they made a covenant to never shed blood again, and that they would rather die than shed blood. Here is what they did: Oh, how merciful is our God! And now behold, since it has been as much as we could do to get our stains taken away from us, and our swords are made bright, let us hide them away that they may be kept bright, as a testimony to our God at the last day, or at the day that we shall be brought to stand before him to be judged, that we have not stained our swords in the blood of our brethren since he imparted his word unto us and has made us clean thereby. (Alma 24:15) They buried their weapons in the ground, as we later read, and when their enemies came upon them, they fell upon their knees and were slain while praying. This they did rather than risk commiting murder again. Sincerely, Vanhin

I want to share something else out of the Book of Mormon. After his resurrection, Jesus Christ truly did visit the people who were in America. Their prophets had also prophesied of the coming of Christ and the people in America had seen the signs of his birth and death. They were the other sheep that he told his disciples about in the Bible. While he was there (around AD 34), one of the things he did was minister to the children that were there. Check this out, it's amazing: 13 Therefore, I would that ye should behold that the Lord truly did teach the people, for the space of three days; and after that he did show himself unto them oft, and did break bread oft, and bless it, and give it unto them. 14 And it came to pass that he did teach and minister unto the children of the multitude of whom hath been spoken, and he did loose their tongues, and they did speak unto their fathers great and marvelous things, even greater than he had revealed unto the people; and he loosed their tongues that they could utter. 15 And it came to pass that after he had ascended into heaven—the second time that he showed himself unto them, and had gone unto the Father, after having healed all their sick, and their lame, and opened the eyes of their blind and unstopped the ears of the deaf, and even had done all manner of cures among them, and raised a man from the dead, and had shown forth his power unto them, and had ascended unto the Father— 16 Behold, it came to pass on the morrow that the multitude gathered themselves together, and they both saw and heard these children; yea, even babes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things; and the things which they did utter were forbidden that there should not any man write them. (3 Ne. 26:13-16) I love those verses, and all the teachings of the Savior. One day we will receive the scriptures of all the lost tribes of Israel, and we will see that God manifested himself to all, not just Judah. Above all, the Book of Mormon is a testament of Jesus Christ. You can hardly turn a page without it testifying that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed the Christ. Sincerely, Vanhin

I think you are right. Our scriptures teach that these things "never will be done away, even as long as the world shall stand, only according to the unbelief of the children of men.", and further: Wherefore, there must be faith; and if there must be faith there must also be hope; and if there must be hope there must also be charity. And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope. And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity. And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me. And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief. (Moroni 10:19-34) Sincerely, Vanhin

Well, I hope you don't feel like I was trying to be like that. :) Just trying to contribute something useful without opening up a can of worms. I remember the first time my mother read D&C 132... Sincerely, Vanhin

I would like to point out that in the case of David, it is pretty clear from modern revelation that he had received the New and Everlasting Covenant. That's kind of the point about D&C 132. The New and Everlasting Covenant includes all the sacred ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, including marriage. Being sealed to your spouse is the last saving ordinance that is performed in mortality, which, by the way, is the law by which David received multiple wives. That is why is he won't receive forgiveness for the murder of Uriah. This might be of interest to someone. Guide to the Scriptures: David We don't know his final state, so it's premature to confine him to Outer Darkness, but we do know he lost his exaltation. -> Doctrine and Covenants 132 Vanhin

That would be C. "voice" And here's a twist. This is the Savior speaking to the Nephites in the Book of Mormon during his visit there after the resurrection: And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (3 Ne. 15:21) :) Vanhin

You are welcome. Seeing that no one else has had a chance to answer the third question, I will go ahead then and take a stab at that one as as well. This actually goes hand in hand with the Plan of Salvation I summarized above. When we enter mortality, we forget our former lives in the pre-mortal existence. We are to live by faith. But God has not left us without direction. Throughout time, God has chosen righteous men and called them as prophets. He reveals the truth of his Plan to the prophets, who in turn teach it to the people on the earth. Prophets testify of Jesus Christ. They either teach the people directly, or their words are written down. That is how we get scripture. The people don't have to just take the prophets word that the message is true. When we hear or read something that claims to be from God, we can find out for ourselves by studying, pondering, and praying about it. God has promised to answer such prayers by the power of the Holy Ghost. Once we know that the message is true, the prophets invite us to follow the plan. God has called a prophet in our day, just as he did anciently, and reveals his word to him. Just like anciently, we can know that he is a true prophet, by studying, pondering, and praying about the message. Through a living prophet, God gives direction to help us return back to him, and reveals how to avoid the pitfalls of our day. We believe Joseph Smith was such a prophet, and that through him, God restored precious truths that had been lost for centuries about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the Plan of Salvation. Through Joseph Smith, God revealed additional scripture, like the Book of Mormon, which is another testament of Jesus Christ. We also believe that God has continued to call prophets since the days of Joseph Smith. Thomas S. Monson is currently God's prophet on the earth. Here is some more info: Guide to the Scriptures: Prophet Guide to the Scriptures: Smith, Joseph, Jr. Guide to the Scriptures: Book of Mormon Guide to the Scriptures: Testimony Sincerely, Vanhin

David's story teaches us that we must endure to the end (see Guide to the Scriptures: Calling and Election). He paid a heavy price for the murder of Uriah (D&C 132:39). D&C 132 talks about those who enter the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, among other things, and reveals that murder by someone at that point is synonymous with blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Here's some text. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God. The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. (D&C 132:26-27) Sincerely, Vanhin

The following is an indepth discussion on the Church's position on same gender attraction, and will be really helpful. LDS Newsroom - Same-Gender Attraction That is probably a good place to start, and you are getting info right from Church representatives. Not that we don't mind discussing it with you. :) It's just that the article is a good resource on this topic. Sincerely, Vanhin

Hehe, yeah, and just so I don't hog up all the cyberspace, I'll let someone else answer the 3rd question. :) So, have at it brother!

Same gender attraction is a touchy subject. Here is a link to the Church's stance, including in depth discussion about the subject -> LDS Newsroom - Same-Gender Attraction In short however, we believe in living the Law of Chastity, which is that we should have no sexual relations outside the bonds of legal and lawful marriage (which we define as a union between a man and a woman). Sincerely, Vanhin

The spirits of mankind are the offspring of God. We came from God and entered mortality as part of our Heavenly Father's plan for us. We are here to gain a body, and to learn by our own experience the difference between good and evil, and hopefully choose good. Because our mortal bodies will die, and also because we will make mistakes (sins) in mortality that prevent us from returning to our Father, he prepared a Savior for us. Through the atonement and resurrection of Christ, everyone who has ever been born into mortality will one day be resurrected as well. Because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, we can all be cleansed of our sins by adhering to the principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Our destiny, if we choose it by our faith and obedience, is to live forever with our families in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and enjoy eternal life, which is the type of life God lives. I'll start wit that answer for the first question. :) Sincerely, Vanhin [Edit] Here is some further reading on the topic from the Church's website (complete with scripture references) if you ever get bored. :) Guide to the Scriptures: Spirit Guide to the Scriptures: Plan of Redemption Guide to the Scriptures: Fall of Adam and Eve Guide to the Scriptures: Atone, Atonement Guide to the Scriptures: Salvation Vanhin