fiona84

How long before he can get the Melchizedek priesthood after baptism? Yes, I'm thinking the boy must have been holding the microphone. That makes sense! I know my husband would find it a bit sad to not be able to even stand up there. Is it true that he could hold the baby then? Or I guess he could hold the mic like the boy did today... Or yes, we could wait but I thought it was a year before a convert could get the Melchizedek priesthood? Thanks for your responses.

This is a very specific question.....theoretical in our case. If my husband and I want to have our baby blessed, but he only holds the Aaronic priesthood (as a recent convert), can he still stand up with the priesthood holders who are taking part in the blessing, lay his hands on the baby, etc? I understand he can't GIVE the blessing but he's wondering if he could stand up and take part. I thought the answer would be 'no' but today at church a teenage boy stood up in the circle with his hands on the little girl (family friend) who was getting confirmed? And he is 12/13 ish so only holds the Aaronic priesthood. Thanks!

I have such a hard time with this doctrine. I try to pretend that it doesn't exist. I've read all of the justifications out there but I still can't wrap my head around it. It seems so wrong to me. I know I'm not alone in this because weren't there some changes to the gospel doctrine manual that makes this concept more vague...and then President Hinckley denied it.... Maybe if I put my fingers in my ears going "lalalala" long enough it will dissapear.

Yeah, I know, and we're the butt of the joke....... I guess I can't decide whether to be offended or find it funny.

I definitely think Orgazmo seemed really offensive. I didn't watch it because I think it's rated NC-17 or something and it would probably really annoy me. The thing I'm concerned with is that they (the creators of South Park) think the whole BOM story sounds so ludicrious and they cannot believe millions of people 'actually' believe it.

Hey everyone, This was just brought to my attention by a friend and I'm not happy about it. The Book of Mormon the Musical It's going to be really mean and offensive. People are raving about it. I worry about how it will skew perceptions of the church. Aargh, these guys make me so mad!!! Why are they always picking on the church?

It bothers me. It bothers me instinctually that our church, our Christian organization, the church of Jesus Christ, would actually condemn the giving of the haves to the have-nots, even if by taxation. It seems to go against the Jesus Christ that I know. I just don't believe that charity in all its good intentions is enough to provide for the needs of the people. And I feel we have a duty as human beings to provide for those less fortunate. I don't feel its taking away my liberty. I feels its what Christ would advocate, yes even politically and through social welfare. I'm going to stop posting on this specific thread because I'm finding it upsetting that our church leaders have said these things (especially Benson's admonition of food stamps). I'm going to go back to my Mormon Democrat group on Facebook and Mormons for Obama and live a quiet life, :) knowing I shouldn't speak up in church about my socialist leanings (and I'm being facicious there because i still don't see these european systems as socialist). I know you have all meant well but its reminding of me of the religious right on here, an organization I know all too much about and which I've always been so grateful the LDS church isn't like. God bless. :)

I'm not saying we should all become marxists. I'm not advocating socialism in that sense. The topic was how I admire the European social welfare system. I won't use the world socialism on here anymore because I don't mean it in the pure theoretical sense. I'm talking about the UK, France, Sweden etc that provide a safetly net, health care, and help to everyone. Yes, this is done by taxes. I find it radical that anyone would think taxation is theft. I find it radical that someone would find social programs funded by the gov't to be theft. You say our church leaders don't condone any form of socialism but Pres. Uchtdorf is GERMAN and they have one of the more generous welfare systems in Europe. But then again, i don't consider Germany socialist, I just advocate their system, as I've been saying.

How disheartening. While I appreciated learning those bits of church history from you, I find it sad that Pres. Benson dissaproved of food stamps. This was probably said by him when I was a little toddler living off of food bought for me with food stamps. And my parents aren't church members so I didn't have the church help feed me,either. I'm thankful for those gov't programs. Even if feeding a poor little child with gov't welfare is satanic and theft. Oh, and you told me to study this deeply and well....I am about 5 months away from my BA in Political Science so I've studied political systems quite thoroughly and I stand by my opinion that the 'socialist' style democracy practiced in Europe is akin to how I feel the Savior would have us be. I think there is a big difference between traditional socialism, communism, and just having a good welfare system.

Good grief. Get around what fact? You are basically saying that European style democracy 'cometh of evil.' I have to disagree. And I would reckon Pres. Uchtdorf, as well as all of the other saints living in or from Europe, would disagree, as well. Oh, I don't think European democracy is unconstitutional, either. True, it doesn't fall directly in line with every thing written in our constitution (such as the right to bear arms) BUT our American constitution was based on European thought-The Magna Carta, Roussaeu, British common law, etc.

Thanks a-train, I understand the context under which the leaders were talking about communism and socialism (the Cold War) and their statements make sense. I'm just relieved to see that it doesn't say that taxation to help the have-nots is Satanic in its own right. I have lived in Europe and it is a Europrean style DEMOCRACY I advocate. I understand many don't feel the same way. I grew up incredibly poor in a rural part of the midwest and if it wasn't for gov't sponsored programs such as Head Start and WIC I wouldn't have had any sort of leg up or probably not even my vaccinations. And I was a child so there was no way I could provide for these things myself with my own work ethic and will. I feel Heavenly Father blessed me with these gov't programs to help me on my way and now (again thanks to gov't Pell Grants) I am nearly a college graduate.

Could you please specify where and who from Church leadership stated this? Did a Church leader actually say that compulsory taxation to give to the have-nots is a Satanatic counterfeit? I find that to be disturbing if it is true. What about all of the European countries which have a socialist stye democracy in place and in turn have a small homeless problem, health care for everyone, etc. I feel this is what Jesus Christ would want from us. I'm sorry, but I don't see how giving a bunch to charity in lieu of taxation is actually going to solve poverty and health care crises our country faces.

If the slogan is trying to make people feel better, it should REALLY say: "There IS a God who loves you. Now stop worrying and enjoy His blessings." I get what those humanists were saying and think there's a lesson there.In that article it talks about people trying to scare you into salvation (think those sandwhich board people walking around with the sign "Repent now, the end is nigh", etc). So maybe a nice message just affirming that you are not alone and God IS there would help. Having been in London it can feel so worldy and its probably easy for an apethetic to get on the bus every morning and not take much thought for the Creator.

Line that super concerns me in red...that implies we will be worshipped.

Thanks everyone. I feel a lot better about it this evening. Believe it or not, it was my non-member husband (whom I was so worried about after that darn speaker on Sunday) that actually made me feel better. I did not discuss this 'issue' with him really, but today he said some really nice things about the church and it reminded me why I was upset in the first place....because he was there, and its HIM I really want to join the church. And why do I want him to join the church so badly? Because I believe in it! I just don't feel its a very endearing concept to investigators or even converts like myself. Maybe it will take time...and while I'm not going to jump on the godhood bandwagon any time soon, and I do not have a testimony of it despite the great responses on here,I feel assured that my over all testimony isn't going to be hindered like i worried it would be yesterday.

Okay....some one PMed me the following information. It has added to my confusion and I have no rebuttal for it, nor an explaination....but of course i feel offended because I AM LDS at the end of the day and I WANT badly to be able to feel good about defending this doctrine, but honestly, I just can't right now. And this isn't helping: "You are right, "mean" mormons are on the endangered species list! And I do not believe all mormons are going to hell, some really do understand the grace of God and the fruit shows it, I've met them. I beleive the "Church of the Lamb" and the "Church of Satan" exist in just about all churches, side by side. But nonethelesss, I would warn you that there are many harmful lies in LDS doctrine. Before I go into the Isaiah verses I want to make it clear (and you probably already know) that the LDS Church teaches a totally different Jesus than we do (not to mention a different Gospel and Salvation which is the pursuit of Godhood). According to Joseph Smith, Jesus is only following the footsteps of his father as he followed his own father before him and so on. The LDS Jesus (and God for that matter) is "progressive" in nature and the difference between "human" and "divine" is only a matter of degrees. The LDS Jesus (and God) is part of a cycle. Also, the LDS Jesus is not exactly born of a virgin if the Heavenly Father is of flesh and blood, whether he's immortal or not. But the Jesus I know is actually God in the Flesh, and the Gospel I know is about the pursuit of God for us, and of us for Him in return. The term in hebrew "Son of" is a means of classification. So when Jesus said that he is the Son of Man, it means that he represents all mankind before God and that he is by nature human. He is also the Son of God, which means that he represents God to us and is by nature God. The peacemkers are called sons of God because they emulate God's nature. The pharisees are called sons of the devil, or sons of perdition because they emulate the devil's nature. So it comes down to this: which Jesus saved us? The Jesus who is a god, or the Jesus who is God? I believe in the latter, because he accepted worship from people during his earthly ministry which would be blasephemous if he were not indeed the One True God. I'll leave it there. This list is going to be long (ok, overkill actually), but here' the Isaiah verses I had in mind (two common LDS objections to the verses I'm about to show you are 1- that God is only talking about earthly idols, and 2- that God is really saying that He is the only God on earth for us, not necesarrily the only God period. I'll think you'll find that neither hold much water): 12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, And marked off the heavens by the span , And calculated the dust of the earth by the measure, And weighed the mountains in a balance And the hills in a pair of scales? Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has informed Him? With whom did He consult and who gave Him understanding? And who taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge And informed Him of the way of understanding? Isaiah 40:12-14 (NASB)...If what Joseph Smith taught (that God was once a man who then worked his way to the station of a god) is true then God would have had to learn all this. But the Bible says God never needed any instruction. 18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare with Him? Isaiah 40:18 (NASB) 25 "To whom then will you liken Me That I would be his equal?" says the Holy One. Isaiah 40:25 (NASB) 28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable. Isaiah 40:28 (NASB)...Joseph Smith taught that the spirit of man is "co-equal/co-eternal" with God, i.e. uncreated by God. And Brigham Young taught that there are infinite worlds with an infinite number of gods, which opens the likelihood that there are other Gods out there who are on the same level of our God. But here God says that He is Eternal and that there are none like Him. Joseph Smith also blatantly said that God was not eternally God, contradicting this verse and Psalm 90:2. 10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me. Isaiah 43:10-11 6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. 7 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation . And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place. 'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.' " Isaiah 44:6-8 5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, Isaiah 45:5-6 (NASB) 18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:18 (NASB) 21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. 22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. Isaiah 45:21-22 (NASB) 9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Isaiah 46:9 (NASB)" Are the things he said about Joseph Smith correct? What does our church teach regarding these NT verses? Rest assured, I will not be swayed into thinking the LDS church is 'lies' just because of some random PM but I will not deny it leaves me squirming, much like that talk I heard on Sunday that I just wish I would have stayed home and not heard!!

Christ's atonement IS enough for me. It is everything for me! That's why I don't want to be a god. I worship Heavenly Father and His Son for what they did for me. No one is ever going to worship ME. Saying 'Our Father' when addressing him in prayer is different than saying 'Be nice to your spouse as this is what Father told us to do. Father wants us to be gods and godesses and in order to be like Father we need to be good,etc,etc.' His whole talk was basically chatting about how good we should be for Father so we can be like him. I apologize for my defeatest attitude. I am earnestly trying to get to the bottom of this issue. I'm doing that because I sincerely don't want it to bother me so much. I was hoping to find a way to come to terms with this in the way that God wants me to. I want to believe it, I wish I could. I'm finding this really upsetting.

Thanks bmy, It's good to hear from the 'horses mouth'. I don't think too much of the King Follet Sermon. :-( I can deal with most of the Joseph Smith criticism: polygamy and drinking and peeping stones and masonic ideas and everything,but this one really bothers me for some reason.

myway, So true! I type in 'Mormon' or 'LDS' sometimes on Youtube just to have a look. There are alot of negative videos. The church leaders have encouraged us to use the internet for GOOD but we need to somehow dispell the negativity....or react to it or something.....

I believe that we are to worship God. I believe that the only person ever on earth that has been fit to worship is Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God. I want to be 'Christ-like' and strive for perfection even though I know as a sinner, I will never be perfect like Christ. So...I feel in heaven that even though we are created in God's image and will be able to inheret the kingdom of God, etc, he is still our one and only God, and we are not worthy to be deemed gods and godesses, even with a little 'g'. I find the idea that my husband or I will one day be worshipped to be a sick idea. I vaguely remember hearing that saying about...as man now is, God once was, etc.... so that means God was once a man? Not our God? I thought He has always existed as God? This whole thing still makes me squirm. I have a testimony of the church, and even when I 'tried' to go to other churches I could not deny this church...and I mean, all you have to do is look at our church and know it is from God. :) Which is why this bothers me so much. Thanks everyone. I'm going to keep praying about it and also focus on things I DO know to be true. This high council speaker....spoke about God as if he were just a next door neighbor or something. There was no reverence to his words about 'Father', just ramblings about how we should be good so we can be gods and godesses like 'Father'. It was like he put us on equal footing or someting. He couldn't even call him 'Heavenly Father' or GOD. I'm going to try to forget about this talk. Thanks for your insight, everyone! PS. What is that madness about God landing on earth and his wife giving birth to Adam? Again, I'm ignoring it.....

Hi everyone, Those who know me on here know that I came back to church 'full force' last year after being only semi-active for a few years. I a convert, a college student who converted when I was 13. Yesterday at sacrament meeting we had a high council speaker and he made me really uncomfortable. He kept calling God/Heavenly Father just 'Father' and while that sounded odd to me, what really bothered me what how he kept referencing us becoming gods and goddesses in the afterlife. I have always had a hard time with this doctrine. When he spoke, I felt awful. I felt uncomortable, like a jolt of annoyance shot through me. I saw a few people give eachother 'looks', as well. To make it worse I had my nonmember, investigating husband with me who has no idea what any of that means. I left in a bad mood after Relief Society. That doctrine is really a testimony killer for me. I just cannot believe that we will become gods and goddesses, it seems really blasphemus and counter to what is taught in the scriptures. I hate having these doubts about god-hood, and I have prayed and prayed but I cannot feel the spirit when praying about this. To make it worse I always think of Pres. Hinkley saying "I don't know that we teach that" when asked about the godhood doctrine on Larry King. It seems like even he was uncomfortable with that! I sincerely would like some help with this. What do you guys think? When was this first taught and how can it be compatable with us believing in God and Christ? Maybe some history will make me feel better? ETA: When do members first get taught this? I never heard a thing about it until I was past YW, and that bothers me. It certainly wasn't mentioned when I got the discussions and the whole 'secrecy' about it makes me dislike it even more.

Good post vanhin.... I agree. Because the BoM and Joseph Smith are the parts he has a hard time accepting, I am worried that he will become all caught up in the validity of these specifics and lose sight of the overall message and get frustrated. After all, Jesus Christ is the center of the church, not Joseph Smith, and we pray to God, not Joseph Smith, so I'm worried too much of a focus on this will lead to not enough focus on faith....... Ah, I just want to do the right thing for him.

Thanks everyone...my husband just had me read out all of your answers to him (he's cooking dinner on the other side of the room). prisonchaplain, he said sometimes he wonders about God in general, but 'mostly just joseph smith' that he has doubts about.

Hi everyone, So...my question is on behalf of my husband who is investigating the church. He knows all about it,has had some of the discussions, goes with me to church, etc, but just hasn't (in his word) 'bought' the Jospeh Smith story. He is very scientificly minded and views things logically. I am a convert who had no problem 'buying' the BoM and Joseph Smith. So its hard for me to relate to to someone who needs to view it in a factual sense. He said he is going to start researching the church more fully and then re-take the discussions (it was a few years ago he took them). He is approaching this prayerfully (it was his idea for us to start praying together daily) as well, and there is no denying the potential magnitude of the results of his investigating. He really likes the church....takes issue with its founding and the BoM. So, my questions are as follows: Any general advice? Any good resources for him to do research? And I suppose one fear is that his research will lead him to anti-mormon material online. I've been there, done that, and know how confusing it can be. And I'm not even a logic/science/fact kind of person. Thanks everyone. :) ETA: He is aware of 'pray about it'. :) We even have kind of an ongoing banter about the 'the challenge'. I wish it were that easy for him lol.

LegendadryPerc, Thanks so much for your inspired words of wisdom! They were just what i needed to hear :) And oh so true.....they made me think and made me feel better. Everybody on here has comforted me so much. I feel the Lord has been guiding me these past few weeks to finally deal with my childbirth issues and has been providing with me with many sources of comfort and wisdom.... Just to update, I went into my doc's office to talk about pregnancy in general and how I am considering it but nervous. She was really helpful...and because I am a worrier, and a researcher, and I want to be as healthy as can be, she helped me devise a 'plan'. Basically I'm about 20 pounds overweight (I know its not that much by our country's standards but still) so my doc is setting me up with a dietician to help me lose 20 pounds so I am within the 'ideal' weight range for my height. That should take a few months...and I won't try and get pregnant until that is sorted...and in the mean time I'm going to start prenatal vitamins. I figure these things are the least I can do to ensure that I'm physically 'ready' for a pregnancy and I think this will help my worrying somewhat too. Oh, and I wanted to say thanks for making me feel better about those 'baby stories' on TV....I mean, I can't imagine births are always that traumatic but it sure feels that way watching those shows!!! I'm going to watch them with a bit more spepticism from now on (...but still watch them, I dont think I can stop :))