seamusz

Is that really necessary?

No, but it looks like you are. "that stuff's been around for a long time, but it's different when Walmart does it". Nonsense. Sounds more like "selective outrage". B) Your venom toward Walmart and only Walmart is a bit puzzling and rather bizzare. it that a quote in there.... I don't think I ever said that. Why do you always turn this as an attack on me??? Why can't you stick to the issue? Your posts to me are a bit puzzling and rather bizarre? How old are you btw? My sig got your attention, eh? Thats good I have contacted local Walmarts on their business practices, do you think they give two cents what I say? Nope, but they care when people stop shopping there, so that is the route I have chosen. It seems as if you are the one on a soap box... although I can't really tell what it is you are advocating... You take me seriously enough to respond to my posts... You seem to be taking this all very personally. I am just rellaying info, I didn't expect to strike such a tender chord with some people... Maybe you should create a thread to convince people that they can't do anything to change their community, so they shouldn't even try. I'm sure you can find a cogent argument for that.

Dear... you may not know this... and I hate to be the first one to tell you.... but all big businesses are in business for the money. and the love of money is the root of all evil.... except for rape and incest and child molestation.. and wife beating... I don't t think they are really based upon money... or the love of it... ← Well, according to the Lords Apostle, money is the root of all evil. 1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. Daizymae had very good points, you should at least be able to see here point of view, even if you don't entirely agree with it.

And when Walmart gives you the boot, you'll probably feel the same way. Seamusz hasn't gone into specifics about whether or not Walmart has given him the boot, but I can speak from experience. I have more than one family member who has a business that has suffered or failed directly because of Walmart. One doesn't generally have a passion for something without a reason. Most people don't get out and aggressively raise research money for cancer until they or someone in their family gets it. Most people don't join in efforts to inform people about this cause or that unless they have been directly affected by it. Of course most of you find Walmart as happy a place as that cutesy little yellow smiley face of theirs.....but most of you have not been out of a job or lost a business because of them (and yada, yada, yada to all the comments that are sure to follow saying that Walmart probably didn't really have much to do with it anyway ). Shop at Walmart to your heart's content. But keep in mind while you're doing it that Walmart does not care about your community. Walmart does not care about your neighbors. Walmart does not care about you. Walmart cares about money....and don't we learn in the scriptures that the love of money is the root of all evil?? ← Thanks, I couldn't have put it better!

Actually yes I do have esp... but I prefer to call it the gift of discernment... ← good point! Actually, to brutally honest I am in two Walmarts every morning around 6 am. I am a vendor for a local company. So maybe my bitterness comes from having to hear their "wallyword tv propaganda" everyday. I will say, if nothing else, associating with employees of Walmart has shown me how much the company takes advantage of their employees... their words, not mine. Some days I wish I was kicked out, I have not been though. But I do want to bite back because I have had family that have lost a business from Walmarts community-caring-we-are-in-business-for-small-business-low-prices. Wouldn't you?

Just your comment tells me that you are just looking for someone to target... Walmart must have given you the boot... and you just want to bite them back... ← I'm sorry that it came across that way. I just thought it was ridiculous that you continually posted the fact that you "totally agreed" with anyone who supported you current stance. Walmart must have given me the boot and I just want to bite them back???? you state that as if it was fact... do you have ESP?

The sweat shop stuff has plagued the entire clothing industries and numerous others. The list for Walmart's unethical practices only start with sweat shops, though. Are you defending these practices?

I guess this is so just because you said it? It seems as if you are the one not paying attention... <!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 3 2005, 03:49 PM OH YEAH! I so agree with that! ← Big surprise there.

And, as I said, I try to avoid as much as I can shopping at big retailers. Really, I don't see why this is a conversation focused on me and my habits. I haven't seen evidence to show that other big businesses have the same unethical behavior as Walmart... perhaps you could pick out a retailer and demonstrate this? I guess that its a trend because you say so? While you're at it, find the spot where I accused you of saying you were perfect... ← Did I read too much into that? If so I apologize. Interesting to note that "all or nothing thinking" is a thinking error. It is not "all or nothing", of which I am very grateful. We should all make efforts to support ethical businesses, and I think that Walmart is a good place to start that effort. If you think there is another good place to start, then do so.

Sorry about not responding all weekend, I usually don't get online on the weekends. I've met a lot of people with this mentality, but it's usually under Shari'a law. Thanks for the opinion (which I note is devoid of facts), but that's all it is; your opinion. Perhaps most ironic is that the companies who you perceive to have have a "negative image" were the most giving. That whole Samaritan thing, you know... The hype that labels Walmart as "evil" is just a trendy bit, isn't it? Remember, if you buy from any of the above or other major retailer, you're just as guilty. ← hmmm... I missed the spot where I said I was perfect... I'll have to read back through If you personally feel offended by what I had to say, that isn't my problem. Whether or not something is right or wrong has nothing to do with who says it. If a thief says that steeling is wrong, he is right. I, like Daizymae, am not a fanatic. I buy from Walmart on a rare occasion, when other options are not reasonable. But I strive to shop elsewhere because of two reasons: 1. I try to shop local businesses. In this I think that all big box stores are the same. Target and Walmart are equal culprits. 2. I have seen enough information from enough sources to convince me that Walmart does not deal ethically. But really, I'm just relaying info that Walmart isn't ethical, I'm not trying to say that everybody must follow my example. Study this issue out on your own and then do what you think is right. Finally, did you really refer to the beer companies as "good samaratains"??? What facts do you want? Walmart went, true. But it is my opinion (of which I think a great deal of ) that it is ridiculous to think that Walmart went to Katrina ravaged region out of benevolence. And the fact that beer companies were the other ones there too, I think supports that stance. (consider that more people die per year in alcohol related accidents than in the Katrina storm) But anyway, this is my opinion and you don't have to believe it if you don't want to. I don't care about trends, and I am not perfect in shopping for products that are entirely Made in America... but I try. Sorry, dumb joke... thought someone would laugh. My point exactly, along with the fact that they have the same business model as most major retailers and manufacturers, so if you avoid one for moral reasons, you must avoid them all. B) ← OK, let me say this once more.... very clearly... Walmart engages in questionable ethics, not common to the business world, or at least many more than is common. If I see or read of a reason, and am reasonably conviced that it is true, that another company is purposefully negligent of laws and is bad for the community, I will try to be active in avoiding them as well.

Nor does fanatacism. I'm not the one saying God doesn't want you to shop at Walmart... If you're honest, you know that almost all major businesses exploit others for gain; it's just become trendy to go after Walmart. Ironically, the only private companies I saw supply anything to Katrina were Walmart, Miller, and Anheuser-Busch. The latter two supplies water, while Walmart supplied food and other goods fort the victims. ← hmmm... I noticed that you didn't really have an answer to my point that it is wrong to shop at a place that exploits others. What sort of justification is it to say that "well all corporations are corrupt, so why even try"? Take a stand. I will not support any business that I see enough info to convince me that they are not running an honest business. I would think that God would support any who take such a stand. But if you feel good about shopping at walmart, by all means go ahead, I hear they have a really good price on your soul!! Do you find it at all ironic that companies that have a negative image show their faces up at the most publicized charity effort of the year. Walmart did a good thing by going to help, but if you think that it was out of benevolence, you are crazy.

Maybe I'm missing the boat here, but if the guy from Walmart was willing to pay Shopko's price for the Nintendo's, then why does it matter? If I owned a store, I wouldn't care WHO bought my products at my asking price, even if they were going to be re-sold. ← Its a matter of economics. If you really wanted to get the new gameboy, and went to Shopko to get it, and they didn't have it, but then went to walmart and they had it, then you would be less likely to go to Shopko in the future. This is why when new products come out like the gameing systems, stores limit the quantity that a customer can purchase, they want as many customers as possible to buy there new fancy-shmansy item from them. Shopko wants to sell there items to customers, this is the only way for them to develop a loyal customer. It is this same reason that Walmart wanted to clean them out of this hot item, they obviously don't care if what the price was, cause they know that if they can get away it, then they have effectively gained a new customer(s) and thereby decreased Shopko's customers by one(or more). <!--QuoteBegin-Outshined@Sep 30 2005, 03:43 PM I couldn't disagree more with seamusz. Tithing is a commandment from God, shopping at Walmart or not is your choice. Trying to put the weight of commandment behind it is sorry. If you don't like Walmart's business model that's on you, not God. And yes, it is about personal preference. If you feel that it is the right thing for you, that's swell, but that doesn't make it the right thing for the rest of the world. That's the same type of fanatacism we see in the Middle East. Just shop where you want and let others do the same. Don't try to paint your choice as "what God would want". Seriously, if you think your choice of supermarket stands up there with scripture study, prayer, and church attendance, you need more hobbies. ← Oh yeah, my Dad can beat up your dad! You know, if you want to discuss this, thats fine, but I don't think that personal insults have a place here. Is it, or is it not a question in the Temple Recommend Interview "Are you honest with your dealings with your fellow man"(or something along those lines) If you knowingly support a business that you know exploits workers, children, governments, and other businesses for personal gain, are you guiltless? Now I admit that it isn't on the same level as the ten commandments and tithing, but we need to be aware of where and with whom we do business.

Well, I think that comparing "doing the right thing" with "doing the right thing" is a very valid comparison. Do you think that it is justifiable to shop at a store that is unethical a predatory just because they have better prices? It may surprise some, but doing the right thing goes beyond praying, reading your scriptures, and going to church. Some times it means making a stand that isn't easy. I dare say that God cares a great deal that we try our darndest to use our income (all of which is a blessing from him) to frequent stores that do business ethically. I hope that it is clear that this has nothing to do with personal preference and everything to do with doing the right thing.

The reason that I am so against Walmart is that they do not practice ethical business. For example I had a friend that was the lead security officer at a Shopko. She said that when Nintendo came out with their new gamboy thingy (I can't think of the name right now) they had a walmart manager come and try to buy out all of Shopko's supply so that people would have to go to Walmart for the product. They had to escort this man off the premises. But as far as supporting local businesses, you're right. Target and other big box stores are all in the same league, but small businesses can compete with them, whereas walmart uses its buying power to force retailers to give them a special price. Not to mention that Walmart is the LEADING consumer of goods produced in China. Just like Daizymae said, you will not go broke by not shopping at Walmart. How many times has someone said to you that they just cannot afford to pay tithing? Doing the right thing is never easy, but always worth it. I would just like to make it clear that I am a conservative through and through. I think that there is a huge benefit to our society through big business and a wealthy upper class (of which I am most defiantly not a part of :) ) and my feelings on the subject do not resonate from union stands and issues. My feelings are purely on a moral and ethical viewpoint.

But they wouldn't be out of a job, because by frequenting other buisnesses, it would increase the demand for labor at those stores. Not only would the jobs be replaced, but they would also be better jobs, and more of them.

That is the most apathetic statement I've heard from you. Let me get this strait, because the world is not ethical in business makes it ok to not be ethical, or support unethical behavior??? Do you/would you teach your children to think this way? Its ok because everyone else is doing it!!! Why should we settle on anything but ethical behavior? If there is a problem that you see in any aspect of your personal or political envirornment, you should work to fix it.

But we don't have to shop there. I think that if you actually compared the amount you save at shopping at wallyworld, you would be surprised how comparable most other stores are. Plus, as a Latter-Day-Saints, I think that it is important to frequent businesses that are not open on Sundays. We do all our grocery shopping at our local Maceys. We also try to shop local businesses first when it comes to other things as well. People make it sound as if they would go bankrupt if they didn't shop at Walmart, this is just simply not the case. You have a choice and it is important that we make the right one!

ME TOO!!! ← *The following information was not compiled by me* - Wal-Mart sales clerks made an average of $8.23 an hour—or $13,861 a year—in 2001. That's nearly $800 below the federal poverty line for a family of three. (Source: Business Week) - In Georgia, Wal-Mart employees are six times more likely to rely on state-provided health care for their children than are employees of any other large company. (Source: Atlanta Journal-Constitution) - Reliance on public assistance programs in California by Wal-Mart workers costs the state's taxpayers an estimated $86 million annually. (Source: UC Berkeley Study) - In the first decade after Wal-Mart arrived in Iowa, the state lost 555 grocery stores, 298 hardware stores, 293 building supply stores, 161 variety stores, 158 women's apparel stores, 153 shoe stores, 116 drugstores, and 111 men's and boys' apparel stores. (Source: Iowa State University Study) - Every year Wal-Mart purchases $15 billion worth of products from China. (Source: Washington Post) - Today Wal-Mart uses over 3,000 Chinese factories to produce its goods—almost as many factories as it has stores in the U.S. (3,600). (Source: L.A. Times) - All else being equal, U.S. counties where new Wal-Mart stores were built between 1987 and 1998 experienced higher poverty rates than other U.S. counties. (Source: Pennsylvania State University Study)] * This company runs ads featuring the United States flag and proclaims "We Buy American". In 2001 they moved their worldwide purchasing headquarters to China and are the largest importer of Chinese goods in the US, purchasing over $10 BILLION of Chinese-made products annually. Products made mostly by women and children working in the labor hell-holes China is famous for. * Their average employee working in the US makes $15,000 a year, $7.22 per hour! * These employees gross under $11,000 a year. * The company brags that 70% of their employees are full time, but fails to disclose that they count anyone working 28 hours a week or more as full time. * There are no health care benefits unless you have worked for the company for two years. * With a turnover rate averaging above 50% per year, only 38% of their 1.3 million employees have health care coverage. -In California alone it's estimated that the taxpayers pay over $20 million annually to subsidize health care benefits for these employees who get none from this behemoth corporation. * According to a report by PBS's "Now" with Bill Moyer, their managers are trained in what government social programs are available for these"employees" to take advantage of so that the company can pass on those costs to you and me. It allows them to not only keep their $7 BILLION in annual profits, but to do so by substituting benefits they refuse to provide with benefits paid for with taxpayer dollars. * This company holds the record for the most suits filed against it by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. A lawyer from "Business Week" (not exactly the bastion for supporting Labor) said, "I have never seen this kind of blatant disregard for the law." They had to pay $750,000.00 in Arizona for blatant discrimination against the disabled! The judge was so incensed that he also order them to run commercials admitting their guilt. * The National Labor Relations Board has issued over 40 formal complaints against the corporation in 25 different states in just the past five years. The NLRB's top lawyer believed that their labor violations, such as Illegal spying on employees, fraudulent record keeping, falsifying time cards to avoid paying overtime, threats, illegal firings for union organizing etc., were so widespread that he was looking into filing a very rare national complaint against the company. (The company contributed $2,159,330.00 to GW Bush and the GOP in 2000 and 2002. The NLRB attorney was replaced when President Bush took office.). * Nearly 1 MILLION women are involved in the largest class-action suit every filed against a corporation. Although women make up over 65% of this corporations work force only 10% of them are managers. The women who have become store managers make $16,400 a year LESS then the men. * The corporation took out nearly 350,000 life insurance policies on their employees. They did not tell the employees and then named the corporation as the beneficiary. They are now being sued by numerous employees, and although the corporation has stopped this practice of purchasing what is known as "Dead Peasant Policy's", a company spokesperson stated, "The company feels it acted properly and legally in doing this." * They force employees to work after ordering them to punch out. In Texas alone this practice of "wage theft" is estimated to have cost employees $30 million per year. Wage theft or "off-the-clock" lawsuits are pending in 25 states. In New Mexico they paid $400,000.00 in one suit and in Colorado they had to pay $50 MILLION to settle one class-action case brought against them. In Oregon a jury found them guilty of locking employees in the building and of forcing unpaid overtime. * With 4,400 stores they practice "predatory pricing." They come into a community and sell their goods at below cost until they drive local businesses under. Once they have captured the market the prices go up. * Locally owned and operated businesses put virtually all of their money back into the community which helps keep the local economies vibrant. This corporation ###### the money out of the local community, decreases wages and benefits and ships the profits out of state. * This company doesn't buy locally or bank locally. They replace three decent paying jobs in a community with two poorly paid "part-timers". * In Kirksville, Missouri when this company came to town, four clothing stores, four grocery stores, a stationary store, a fabric store and a lawn-and-garden store all went under. Eleven businesses are now gone. (The above information can be found in "Thieves in High Places", James Hightower, The Penguin Group, New York, NY, 2003 p. 166 - 193.)

well, that is fine as long as the competition is running an ethical business. The argument against Walmart is that they make there bucks by using unethical practices. Not to mention the way they sap money out of the economy, locally and nationally. Speaking on the economics of the issue, how is it good for our national economy to take money spent by a local consumer and use it to buy the vast majority of your goods and services from a foreign market?

Honestly... I find this whole thing very stupid... ← any qualification for this comment?

Just thought I'd make a plug for a new movie that shows the darker side of Wally World. http://www.walmartmovie.com/

uh... Have you forgotten about this thread Snow?

"The Dalai Lama Goes To Idaho"... Sounds like a Coen Bro's film title. Saw it on the news though and it looked like it was a very nice, I hadn't heard any advertizing... I wonder how people were able to get tickets? One of my favorite films of all time is Seven Years in Tibet

My big question is why when people sign and ask for an LDS answer to a question or dilemma they are met with a barrage of posts from non LDS people discouraging the poster from seeking an LDS perspective.

Sorry about the extended absence, I spend my weekends away from the internet. For the record: I asked 2 people at church regarding this issue(the only two that an appropriate opportunity presented itself to ask this question) one was a brother very knowledgeable in church history and such, the other was a counselor in the bishopric. Both agreed with the statements made by me and others... they agreed with the fundamental statement that the prophet BY, and subsequent prophets, spoke for the Lord in withholding the priesthood from blacks, and that in 1978 additional revelation was received in that the Lord expanded the right to hold the priesthood to all worthy male members. Or in the words of Bruce R McConkie (that have been quoted before) "It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the gentiles." As Elder McConkie stated like the gospel being limited to the House of Israel during the Minesty of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then being opened to the Gentiles in due time, we were blessed to see the day when the Lord would reveal that all worthy male members of the church would receive the priesthood. I would think that this issue is pretty cut and dry. <!--QuoteBegin-Snow However, I do think that Brigham Young was in harmony with the Spirit when he said: "What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150) and "How easy it would be for your leaders to lead you to destruction, unless you actually know the mind and will of the spirit yourselves." (JD 4:368) After all, this is a church that values personal revelation over blind obedience. This is because the statements before do no apply to you Snow. They were statements given to different people for a different time. They have been superseded. You need not/should not dwell on them. Live in the here and now and pray about what the Prophet says now. We have been promised that by doing so we will receive the conformation of the spirit that what he says is true. It is not given to us to receive conformations about outdated sayings and/or teachings of the Prophets. Those called to live the law of Poligamy received the strength and spirituality to do so in righteousness. We will not be given the same answer if we pray about the same issue and same statements. All I am doing is standing up for the truths of the gospel. And that is that the Prophets and Apostles will not teach anything contrary to the word of God. This statement was never said to me. It doesn't concern me. I am curious what the outcome of these discussions with your church leaders have been. That doesn't make much sense seeing as all the quotes you have used to back up your claim that prophets can teach contrary to the word of God are before the proclamation that came in 1978... <!--QuoteBegin-Snow@ I'll be happy to ask my Bishop. He's a bright guy and knowledgeable about the gospel and Church history. I also ask his counselor. I'll report back. By the way, I teach Priesthood all the time and we are never afraid to tackle the tough issues in a spirit and demeanor appropriate for a Church setting. The quorum wouldn't blink an eye (much) if I discussed it, though without checking my notes, I may have already said it in some lesson. They blinked a few eyes when I taught them about how the Book of Mormon was translated - with a hat and peep stone and mostly not with the Urim and Thummin but since my documentation and source (including General Authorities as published by the Ensign) are impeccable, I do not get questioned. For Sacrament Meeting talk and good lessons I carry copies because I get asked for them and I want to have my sources handy for student of the gospel and history. As I said before, I'm quite curious what the outcome of these meetings were. <!--QuoteBegin-Snow Okay - you're not moaning. That's me being too obnoxious, but of course I would gladly change my mind if there were a superior argument, expect no one has even attempted to reconcile the contradictions between BY and 1978. I am not ideologically driven based on dogma. I will accept truth be it through reason or the spirit. Well, imho, Elder McConkie gives a pretty good argument reconciling the statements... But I guess if you are still unconvinced, we could try to do the discussion thing... Its up to you.