MarginOfError

Sure, the Manna Storehouse says it doesn't want to be a food service operation. The ODA wanted to look around to see if they were engaging in any activities that required a license and were refused. So they came back with a warrant. If indeed Manna Storehouse was doing nothing wrong then they will get all their stuff back. Nobody has said that they are guilty...they're being inspected.

I prefer to string them up like pinatas.

You're darn right. Abuse is the answer to all the world's problems!

Agreed. If you want to sit in the same pew each week (which I actually prefer to do), then get to Church early enough to claim it.

But the good news for this family is they won't need to run the co-op anymore!

That attitude is exactly the problem with American motor companies. The unions blame the management. The management blames the unions. And now they're both going under. So I guess you can celebrate...the UAW won't be around much longer.

My apologies. I completely missed that link. I'll read it over when I get a chance. *Hanging my head in sheepish I-need-to-learn-to-read fashin* Thanks

Are you saying it was the unions that rejected Six Sigma programs? And what do you mean Toyota introduced Six Sigma? Come to think of it, what are you saying...that post really left me confused. I'm not sure if you're arguing for or against Unions, and I'm not sure if you're placing the blame for poor quality on management or labor.

What a great idea. Let's get rid of all the licensing for agencies/companies from which be buy our food. Let's get rid of all the government agencies that control this stuff, like the DOA and the FDA. And then when mad cow disease breaks out, we'll have no idea where it started, where it's going, or who has the contaminated beef. It won't matter. Under this plan, we won't even know that mad cow has really broken out until we've seen several deaths. Or perhaps we can license these agencies so that we can track the source of these foods, minimize the contamination of our food source, and handle it appropriately. This co-op appeared to be operating outside of the legal bounds surrounding this type of activity, and there appears to be justification for investigating if what they are doing poses a risk to the food source. If it doesn't, great...they can then implement the procedures to ensure that it never happens. Again, this was not a personal food stock. This was a stock of food intended for redistribution. And I reiterate that the methods employed were excessive. Did I not say that both sides were in error?

Oh, I don't know, perhaps making a comment like that.

That's an interesting analysis. Do you have sources on that? And in case I'm still on Umfrey's block list, could someone inform him that I'm interested in where this rotating Sabbath comes from? Thanks.

And looking at my completely right post I realize that I might not have been clear. I do not advocate the elimination of unions. I just want them to lighten up a little. In the current climate, I don't see management trying to take advantage of labor, and so the union's role is diminished. But I'm not ready to say that it will always be that way. The day may yet come when organized labor is again needed to prevent abuse by management.

Can you really be that paranoid? The DOA had a warrant. To get that warrant they had to show sufficient evidence that something was amiss. The only thing more dangerous than an over reaching government is a citizenship that believes citizens can do no wrong and government can do no right.

I'm with FunkyTown...it isn't just the Unions. Management is just as guilty. The two sides view everything as a personal attack. They're so divided that you're seeing a result similar to France and England trying to build a foot bridge to connect the two countries: each side thinks the other is trying to rob them, and no one wants the bridge anyway.

The problem isn't that unions exist. The problem is that there is an incredible distrust between labor and management. When labor and management compete with each other, both will suffer and the product will deteriorate. The typical autoworker in the US earns about $28.48 per hour plus benefits. That's about $60,000 per year. It just so happens, that's about what I make with a Master's Degree, and I get all the same benefits the auto workers do. If we look at Honda alone, in their plant in Greensburg, IN, the typical employee earns about $24 per hour plus their benefits (an interesting side note, this wage is so much more than any other industry in the area that all the industries are increasing wages to compete for labor). In actuality, the wages for US auto manufacturers and foreign auto manufacturers are about the same. All these companies have to make the same Social Security and Medicare payments for their employees, and in all likelihood, healthcare and pension benefits are probably comparable. I suspect is has little to do with how much the companies have to pay their employees per hour, but how much the companies have to pay per car. The stereotype of union employees is that they don't do as much work as they are scheduled to do, i.e., they get more scheduled breaks. This may be contributing to US Auto Industry being unable to compete. Then there are all the squabbles between management and labor. The Wall Street Journal published an article that explained this situation that developed at Ford Contrast this with what happened at Honda Then you get into the quality issue. US automakers make a pretty crappy product compared to Japanese automakers. In fact, US automakers fell behind back in the 1950's. W. Edwards Deming, who is well known for his work in making production during WWII more efficient, proposed to the US automakers a plan of statistically designed and controlled experiments to improve the quality of production. He was rejected. Deming then took is methods to Japan, where they were adopted, implemented, and almost worshipped. The Statistical Quality Control program gave birth to what is known as Six Sigma today. It wasn't until the 80's that the US really started to recognize the value of Deming's methods. US automakers have been playing catch up ever since, and unions have been fighting change every step of the way. You might also consider this example: Japanese auto companies expect better work from their workers and expect committed work. They build a better product because of it. In return, it's understood that if the workers build a good product, the company will treat them well. In large part, they've done this without the unions. Isn't it ironic that it's the companies where the management and labor are always fighting that are having the major layoffs? Again, I don't say this to imply that unions are bad. Management is just as guilty of mistrust and abuse as the unions are. What they need to recognize is that they have a common interest and that they need to stop "taking care of their own" and start taking care of each other. Only then will the issues that have plagued the US auto companies for 30 years abate.

Sounds like the DOA suspected they were running the co-op and trying to turn a profit. The raid appears to be valid, but executed under a gross over-reaction. Individuals maintaining their own food supply will not be next, unless you're routinely selling your food storage for a profit. The Church also won't be affected as they tend to maintain the proper licensing. Before flipping out about rights, perhaps we should consider that both parties were in error on this one.

By the way, loudmouth, I want to thank you for challenging us to check our emotions and frustrations and try to view this with a little more compassion. We might pick on you a little for it, but I, for one, am appreciative of your intent.

::snicker snicker:: I love Elder Oaks's talk, and just for the fun of it, I'll point out that the judgment being made here is actually within the bounds of what Elder Oaks presented. Elder Oaks stated that we are not to make final judgments. It would be inappropriate to say that such behavior or such poor parenting will prevent that family from sharing eternity together. But as long as the judgment that their parenting style is poor is made with willingness to change our judgment should the parenting style improve, then what we are making is the intermediate judgment. These judgments we are permitted to make as these are the judgments we need to make to surround ourselves with the proper influences. But even so, we cannot call these intermediate judgments 'righteous' if we are not making them with love and compassion. However, I will also cite Boyd K. Packer's classic Reverence Invites Revelation

And whiskey without the alcohol may as well not be whiskey.

Whiskey without the alcohol.

It only reinforces the behavior if being in the hall is a preferable alternative. When I was young, if I was disruptive in Sacrament, my mom would take me out in the hall and make sure that I was miserable in the hall. It didn't take long before I decided it was better to be in the Chapel.

Unless the kids are jousting in Sacrament meeting...then I say smack them. You're right though, you've won a convert in me. I actually was thinking about this over the past couple weeks as I've watched how my brother and his wife have been handling their kids. In some things I really don't agree and I found myself saying, "I would do it so much better." As I thought about it more I realized, of course I think I can do it better. No self-confident human being would say anything different. But every one of those self-confident human beings who has any rational sense would also know that in actuality, they probably wouldn't. So perhaps we should look at this discussion as more of a "here's what I would do" perspective, and at least some of us that are struggling with this might get some ideas for how to handle our kids. I probably will find myself in need of such advice as my daughter gets a little older.

This begs the question "is the removal of the Ten Commandments the symptom or the cause?" I don't have an answer to that. It's a lot like the chicken and the egg debate (which, by the way, statistically speaking, the egg came first): the two conditions sort of coexist and feed each other. It is in human nature to try to give reason to events that we have difficulty understanding. We really shouldn't try to interpret what God has his hand in unless we are far enough removed to be objective and open enough to receive better enlightenment from God.

I keep telling myself I'd like more people who bear their testimony to do it the way I do...but then I realize I'd be really bored sitting there for 40 minutes with no one talking.

Okay, my Sacrament pet peeve....priesthood holders who when passing the sacrament hold the tray up to your nose. Just put the tray somewhere I can reach it!