Serg

Again brothers, Jason just brought up the " fact or false" things of the Church(Christianity), i guess people cant stand a discussion without touching faith matters...lol. Now, the Church has never supported evolution, and most known books are The origin of Man, and Doctrines of Salvation. We cant believe in animal evolution without accepting man's evolution. And as we DONT believe in man's we cant accept animal's neither. There was as you said ApotleKnight, no death in the Garden, and biology requires death to evolutionate. Although we dont know how much time Adam and Eve were there(and could be a day or centuries), we anyways cant sustain evolution for there was no blood nor necessity of food. Now as to " changes" in animals, well, yes. We ourselves have lost hair from our body, and so on. There are ducks that happen to have different "props" than others depending on their enviorment. There are lizards(female), than we yet dont know how, can fertilze their selves alone and have almost erradicated the whole male production... Still, these changes can be thrown upon God's plan for such animals to adapt, or us too. Or it can be that because of mortal beings' condition of detirioration bodies can alter their components and so on, but as to ADMIT or BELIEVE that ALL around us is result of evolution is to deny the christian faith. Many studies have shown how science and faith can be together, for example , when noone believed that womem and men appeared at the same time, not having come by any other gradual change, the mithocondria's dna showed that both "appeared" at the same time, with the SAME vital characteristics that now have.... Anyways, is just a theory.LOL. Best regards,

I agree Ray, but try reading Mormon doctrine by McConkie and let me know later brother. I know it would be useful as it was for me. LOL. Take care,

I agree with you Ray, and would also add that once an artist was doing a painting of Christ and painted the eyes honey brown, and presindent Kimball said it was wrong, the people said, "well why"? And he said he knew for he saw Him. I support that the Apostles(not necessarily all) have seen the Christ. The Prophet has to be sealed with election sure and then see the Lord, just as we could. By saying this we dont say that they get a witness more valuable that ours, but that they WORK for it enough to have it, and they (for their calling sake') have to have that witness, for if it would be sufficient to say : I know Christ lives, just because of the Spirit confirmation, then their calling would have no necessity for the whole point of being an apostle is as with the apostles of old, to give witness of knowing literally that their Lord lives, and they have witnessed his resurection. Our testimony is still true and very valuable but their calling is to tell us THEY HAVE seen Him, and we BELIEVE them and through the spirit know its true. we have : And it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them, even by that faith which was had by the prophets of old. 3 And after that you have obtained faith, and have seen them with your eyes, you shall testify of them, by the power of God; 4 And this you shall do that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., may not be destroyed, that I may bring about my righteous purposes unto the children of men in this work. D&C.17;2-4 and also: Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might aknow concerning the truth of these things. 23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? 24 And now, behold, you have received a witness; for if I have btold you things which no man knoweth have you not received a witness? section 6 of D&C. Best regards,

Just to say, and let not be it so harsh....the "us being NOT burnt" at His coming is NOT JUST because of paying tithings, is because of BEING OBIDIENT. Tithing is a material expression of obidience, one mostly difficult for our carnal aspect, and the reason of the scripture saying that is, that for he who can be THAT obidient to do so, it would in logic, be ALSO obidient in most things, action that would ASSURE you of NOT being burnt, so again, it is faithfulness what saves a man, and diligence that shows such conviction, and thats it.... Best ragards,

This is very interesting Snow, thank you. Best regards,

I would never nor have said that God has more inclination to talk to me than you have. Nor have i INTENTIONALLY insinuated that you are not christian or pagan or anything, i said: Christian God disagrees with you"that was because YOU were arguing towards a behavior that one finds within a CHRISTIAN CHURCH(Lds), and so I only could provide the Christian's point of view, this is the BIBLE. But if you understood it differently, then i'm very sorry, really. Best regards brother,

Shantress: We believe not so. We believe that "tithing" is part of a COVENANT, of the option to follow Christ , and therefore you have no obligation nor a promaise of the Lord. BUT!!!!!! That doesnt mean that the Lord doesnt see good your faith or intentions!!! When some that were NOT following Jesus began making miracles in His name, the Apostles came to Jesus and said : We told them not to for they were not with us! And Jesus said: Let him, for he who is not against us is with us....and later said : for nobody who recieves a miracle in my name(although not of my church) CANT say anithing bad against me! So we believe that God is a God of LOVE that goes BEYOND church concepts, and ACCEPTS your FAITH and awards you according to the knowleadge YOU have that moment. We just believe you ought to recieve His Will and become His follower UNDER ZION's Work in this earth.....but those are only twenty other bucks! Take care,

That is a wise answer Ray and ApostleKnight.

People who pay tithe according to the faith they do it with and the obidience dont only get spiritual blessings but economic blessings, for the "tithe and the offeringd" are for us to give the Lord and somehow HAVE in return. Also the day of sabbath(sunday) as a promise it states that gives us "the fulness of the earth", meaning also economic blessings. For those who dont believe it, more than testimonies I'll say that D&C says that ALL the blessings are based on SOME commandment, and the only ones that speak of prosperity are those i just mentioned. Also under the covenant of Abraham we inherit his blessings that include economic means...

Right with you Ray.

"In truth, you have no more idea about what God thinks than do I. You simply have faith that God agrees with you. Here's news for you... so does everyone" (Quote from Snow) Well, you and our friends Jason and Tao, have a very pessimistic view over "God's" dealings with men and all... Jason claims to be deist, and said that a deist believed nothing at all, just that we cant know the truth of God, and none can. Well, thats not a new conception, thats far more less graded skepticism than the original, even a gnostic seems more understandable. My point being, not to attak your faith, but to ask you, what in fact do u believe? For your posts are very varied, some against something and some others pro-that something... Jason that claims that we cant know in fact the TRUTH or "GOD", claimed last time that "the only covenant God made with men was creating them"...well how does he know that if "in fact" he cant? Well, i'll give you a hint, its called "christian influence" ... And as to your claim of "my faith", ÿour faith"and "God agrees with me", thats got NO value as an argument, thats like putting a woman to box with a man(nothing against it) , not as to which arguments is weaker but that they apply to different cathegories.... If you're talking about the christian God and his dealings and his servants, I'll respond you according to that faith, mine...its got no sense at all that you would ask something about the christian faith(as plural marriage) and expect me to give you pagan arguments.... Best regards,

I support your thinking...

One of the things that has been a blessing to me is the encouragement of self-sufficiency, to inspire us to pursue any dream we have as to the economic and professional apects of our lives. And though thats no "new principle' in this selfish world, its very healthy for me to know i can pursue it having the Lord by my side, or may i say, me being by the Lord's side...lol

We cant say that because men(apostles or prophets) get out of the Church, they must have NOT seen God. For the very scriptures say that THAT is not the case. As you said, the brothers of Nephi not only had angels come to them but HEARD the Lord. Cowdery SAW Jesus in Kirtland. And others, and yet they left. McConckie has said that the prophets HAVE been sealed to exaltation, and that means that they somehow HAVE seen the Lord. That may include the apostles, and what do u know? ALL of us who want so and work for it! Jesus lives, men have seen Him and gave us testimony. A lot of us have seen Him, not in a literal way, but sufficent to believe THOSE who HAVE(through the Spirit of the very Lord in us). Best regards,

Well, my opinion would be that he should pay from the whole income it gets him. Not only from his "salary"if he even works there, but from ALL that is LEFT for him. Not from all what he pays to the employees for that would be unfair, but from the whole quantity from which he profits. Best regards,

And as to Jason, hey what about Kant? He was a great thinker, but you only use his thoughts when it is convinient for you, what about his cathegoric imperative? Do you APPLY that in your life? Because its one of the most precious "thoughts of men"towards "rightousness"that i've ever seen. So u dare to explain it to your fellow forum companions?

Tao: When speaking of "chosen" by God, it implies that you think He chooses somehow(though not a "nation") When speaking of a "nation" we understand a "group of many people", not entirely a "flag" or "political party" or an institution with an imperialist agenda. We dont say God chose Israel out of nowhere, the very bible tells us (old testament) that the other nations were also of the Lord, for He is Father of All. For so we have: HEAR, O Israel: Thou art to pass over Jordan this day, to go in to aposses nations greater and mightier than thyself, cities great and bfenced• up to heaven, 2 A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak! 3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bbring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee. 4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my arighteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the cwickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee. 5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a astiffnecked people. Deut.9:1-6 But then again, if you see ALL the other nation as the BOM tells, had a chance to be "worthy" before Him. But none of them wanted so, and the Lord chose the ONLY people that wanted to, and it was hard even for them. But all the other nations anyways had a chance also, for the prophets were called to preach to all the nations! Thats why they had converts and foreigners in the land, which heard the Lord, as the case with Jonah! So when Christ came, finally commanded them AGAIN to take the gospel to everybody, for the very Israel accepted it not! And said : Ye worship ye knownot what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. Jn.4:22 And also later: Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you(jews), and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mat.21:43 So we dont teach that they were chose because they were.."them" but because they wanted to follow Him. And aso before the creation of this world they were very loyal and recived the Word of Covenant that they shall be his people, but this contradicts not christianity for ALL who come to Him become a descendant of israel in an spiritual sense. Best regards, ( and oh, you havent answered me where did you get the idea that Jesus in the BOM killed many)

Welcome!

Well Ray if you are reffering to "advantage and knowledge" it only comes to my mind the section in doctrine and covenants that says: "And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." (130:19). But if its another quote from JS, there are plenty like : "Without revelation there is no salvation"(Teachings of the Prophet JS) or others as: Pure knowledge greatly enlarges the soul, D&C 121: 42, "One progresses only as fast as he gains knowledge" (HC 4: 588).

Yes i know that...and i accept so. But that has NOTHING to do with the whole CHURCH being false or the whole concept of plural marriage to be "BAD". Best regards,

I agree with you Ray. But its interesting to see that they were called to be "literal witnesses" of the Lord.

Well, if you would try to think about it this way... We all are going to have the SAME witness as the very Prophet someday, the secure election for exaltation provides for ALL members the oportunity to SEE God even as HE IS. So the apostles have nothing that we CANT have too. But they obviously already worked and continue working for it. Yes i believe they have seen HIM, whether a dream or face to face. Best regards,

QUOTE(Snow @ Oct 25 2005, 07:20 PM) "No observable good has come of plural marriage and much bad has come of it. I think that we would all have been better off without it." Well Snow, the christian God thinks different from you. The very house of Israel was founded on a plural marriage and the names of the children(12 tribes) will stand on the veri door of the Celestialized City in this world at His coming. But then again, who am i to judge the Lord? If i believe in this Church and Christ and His Word i have to believe the leaders. Dont take me wrong, not that i would follow them to anything without asking, but that if i had asked and been answered(by God), i'll do it. Proof of JS intercourse? Well, i already said what i think. Now as to taking anybody's wife from them while they are alive, THAT is NO good, and i consider it wont come from the Lord. But again, we dont say that prophets are like the POPE, suppoused to be perfect, we accept that among many, JS also comitted erors. But to BLAME the whole work of plural marriage saying that is NO good just because of some faults....nah, its too weak of a comment. Best regards,

Well, it would not be any weird that JS had sexual intercourse with his other wives for THAt WAS MARRIAGE ABOUT! iF you see section 132 and 134 of D&C you'll see that it states that women that are given in marriage trhough God to another man, are his wives and so also includes the duties thereof. A porpouse of such law was also described in that section : to fulfill the plan of God in which reproduction within the covenant is taken place....also to take as many faithful woman as we can to exaltation... Again, its not amusing that there might be evidence of his intercourse.

Hi, could’nt make it during the weekend to participate(internet problems) but now could, just to say some things as to how we can try to see “salvation”: The act of confessing the Lord, does it save??? Its said: (Romans 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Now, it is a beautiful scripture but, do we understand it as we should? Lets see this: (Romans 10:16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Romans 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Oh! so now it includes “obeying”, and this through FAITH, which comes from the very Word. The same Paul that also said: (1 Corinthians 7:19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Now as to confess: (Hebrews 13:15) By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. (Hebrews 13:16) But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. (Hebrews 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls... Again : (2 John 1:7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2 John 1:8) Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. And again: (1 John 3:23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.(1 John 4:14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. * So as we see, confessing the Lord’s name is to praise HIM, to obey HIM and to PROCLAIM HIM as our King and Saviour. There’s nothing bad with “confessing Jesus as our personal Saviour” , what is deceiving is to believe that by only that we are saved. Jesus said: (Matthew 23:2) “ The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (Matthew 23:3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.” This for those who say we have no similar law or any law at all, as Paul said: (1 Corinthians 9:20) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Corinthians 9:21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. So what is it, FAITH OR WORKS that saves? (Hebrews 11:33) Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,... So in some way, righteousness comes TROUGH FAITH but is WROUGHT also, how? why? Cause “FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”. The only way to give something, is having it. The only way to let know you have something is by someway SHOWING IT. For also is said: (2 Corinthians 8:12) “For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.” Please watch this : (2 Timothy 1:9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (2 Timothy 1:10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:” Wow, this is Paul. Note quickly that says that He SAVED us(in past) and now relate that part with the part later saying Jesus’s grace before the world began, and that one with Peter’s and John’s saying of Christ as the Lamb sacrified before the world was... And now see this, does it say that we are NOT saved by works? No, closely says that our CALLING was not by works, this means, the oportunity, the possibility, the effort of God himself to save us is NOT by our works for he died for ALL, whether sinner or righteous, BUT the “life and immortality to light” was brought TROUGH the GOSPEL, as Peter said : (1 Peter 1:22) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: so there’s no much to say, letalone what the 5th verse says: (1 Peter 1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. So His call is by grace and even the salvation in the last time to be revealed but it requires obedience, why? Cause it requires a NEW person, as also said: (1 Peter 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. So the hope comes from the faith, and the obidience too, and these take us to be participants of the glory of God, not His grace, for if it were by works, then its not by grace, but its by grace, so God can be all in all. As Paul also said: (Ephesians 2:8) “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (1 John 5:3) Oh! So by grace we in fact are saved, yes, not of ourselves, for NONE of us deserved His sacrifice, but its given the opportunity to all, and saved by FAITH, which one? That which has works, that which WALKS IN THE GOOD WORKS GOD ORDAINED BEFORE. But there is also the conclusion of all this said here: (1 Corinthians 13:13) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity(love). (1 John 5:1) “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (1 John 5:2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. (1 John 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (1 John 5:4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” . To live with God, we ought to be like Him....(and it does’nt come through the statement of a sentence, LOL) “Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of His steps.”(Psalms 85:13) Best regards,