Mark

Hi Ray, what about the quoate that Brigham said that "Adam is the Father of our Spirits" I'll give you reference when I get back form vacation. Mark John 1:12

Hi Jenda, What NT Covenants must I follow to be in Gods presence, according to RLDS teachings? Ray, So your saying that these gods, who were treating Israel poorly, were wicked god's? So God had to kill them, or at the least take there godhood away and let them die as men? Wouldn't it be clearer if you read in context that the gods (elohim, lit. mighty ones, or gods little g) were the rulers of Israel at this time (the judges ) and they were children of God as all Israel was? And because they were wicked God was reminding Israel that they were just men and will die as such and that he along is judge of the earth? Jesus died in His humanity, not in His Deity, God cannot stop existing. Are you saying there were gods here on earth ruling Israel? You have just opened a very large can of worms Ray, but at least it is in line with some of the older LDS teachings that even elohim can fall. Matt. 5:48, From verse 43 to 48 Jesus is preaching on the mount, to both men and WOMEN, that LOVE is the most important thing, he even tells the to greet the tax collector in love and if we do this we will be perfect as God in that sense. We know that we can onlt be perfefct in Gods eyes by being clothed in Christs righteousness, which was imputed to us by His work on the cross. It is very clear that we can not reach perfection through works of the law, read the Book of Galations, Hebrews, and Romans to start with. This does not in any way shape of form imply that we can become God, the bible is very clear when it says there 'was no God before me, nor will there be any other God after me' ( paraphrase from Isaiah). Wer can only be perfect in Christ, thats the whole point of the NT, that Jesus died for us so we can be in Him and that He will ALWAYS intercecde for us ( Hebrews 7), He is our High Priest forever. Take you time and study this Ray, don't just look in your topical guide, really study and tell me where I error in what I just said, fair? I'm going on vacation I'll catch up in a week or so. Amillia, You said "Mark is not going to listen to anyone but himself" You almost got it, I will listen only to myself in that I will honestly check out every thing by testing it with what the bible says and in prayer. Do me a favor and copy some of the things here by ray and send them to different LDS authorites and check him out, I would be careful in that he is not real clear even what LDS doctine is, see our thread on the nature of Jesus. Ask your bishop if LDS doctrine teaches that Jesus was always God and ask him to show you where it says that. He said he is a prophet, as mmember of the church for over 30 years I know what the LDS teachers have taught and Ray isn't on the same page as them on many issues, be careful. Mark John 1;12

Hi Ray, I was kind of hoping that a LDS member would correct you on Sec 93, but I guess thats is not going to happen. Sec 93 is a proof text that LDS docrine teaches that Jesus was not always God, verse 14 says.." he was called the Son of God, because he received not the fulness at the first." then John goes on to tell about his baptism, and then in verse 17 says "he received all power both in heaven and earth, and the glory of the Father was with him,..." This is 'present tense' and demands the fact that the author is saying that at this point of time Jesus received power and was glorified. Taken in context with the following verses that JS ( and man) can be glorified (see verse 28 in that when man is glorified he will know all things). Ray, sec. 93 is a proof text to my original post in that Jesus was inteligence, born to Elohim in spirit ( the firstborn) and at some point in time had to be exalted to deity. The priesthood teaching manual standard, "Gospel through the Ages", which was endorsed by the church as a offical teaching manual says..." God the eternal Father was once a MORTAL Man who passed through a school of earth life similar tothat throuh which you are passing.." (p.104) Speaking of God it continues..." thus he grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood. In other words, He BECAME God..." (p.114) If you like I can give you MANY more quotes for LDS apostles and prophets that teach that God was once a man and had to be exalted to the position of God. So I hope you see that the reason I keep asking for a reference is that you didn't give me one that says that Jesus has always been God, you gave me one that said he wasn't yet glorified. So I'll stand by my statement. Ray, topical guides are great in helping you find a subject, but if you don't study and do your home work you are going to be deceived, do a study on the nature of God taught by the LDS church before you say things like you did, it's just not true that the LDS church teaches that Jesus was always God, I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just saying that it is a mis-truth to say that, and I realize it is because you have not studied what you're church teaches on this subject, I can give you verse after verse of LDS teachers saying that all beings come from intelligence and have to be exalted to deity the the process of eternal law, I' kinda let down that other members didn't correct you on this and left you hanging. So back to my original post that the LDS Jesus is a different Jesus of the bible, don't worry about whos right or wrong at this point, just acknowlage that we believe in to different Jesus's. LDS Jesus is a created being (out of intelligence) and the Biblical Jesus has always been God ( John 1:1, Phil. 2:5-10) Do me a favor, don't bail on this, if I am wrong give me a clear current LDS teaching that says Jesus has always been God? Mark John 1:12

Hi Jenda, Can I, according to your churches teachings, spend eternity in the presence of God by just believing in what Christ did for me and accepting His Grace and by letting Him take care of the rest? Hi Ray, So does that mean you want to go through each verse and test them? Lets start with Psalms 82:6? I'll start it out by asking you who are these "gods" God said they will "die like men"? Are you saying that gods can die? Mark John 1:12 Mark John 1:12

Hi Ray, Where can I find the teaching that the LDS church teach that Jesus was always God? At least have the honesty to give a reference. I looked at the topical guide in the LDS translation (seminary bible) as you suggested, and it says Jesus was the first the firstborn to the Father IN THE SPIRIT. Are you saying this does not imply that there was a time when jesus wasn't God according to LDS theology? Mark John 1:12

Hi Ray, You bailed on our last discussion when you got stuck in a mistruth, if I discuss this topic with you will you finish the discussion? We can start with Psalms 82:6 if you like? I'll use the topical guide if you like and we can test it to see if its true, but please let me know if your honest enough to discuss the questions and proof texts? Mark John 1:12

Hi Ray, You have made a false statement, the LDS, nowhere do LDS teachers teach that Jesus was always God, you are deceiving those who read your post. I would love to discuss your post when your ready to deal with what your teachers teach, let me know. Mark John 1:12

HI Jenda, See what I mean, read Faerie's post, she has bought into everything you claim JS went astray on, I never said you worship JS, I tried to convey that people buy into his false teachings. This is the bottom line JS has led millions of people, by his false teachings on a path that is in direct conflict with what the Bible teaches, he has poluted every essentual docrine and you are condoning it when you say things like "great post", this person mostlikely believes that male members of the church will become Gods, and she has potential to become a Godess. Just Think about it Jenda, and be a Brean. Who has more truth in you're opinion, myself or Faerie? and why? Just curious. Mark John 1:12

I believe that Paul was talking about another (physical) person who could or might claim to be the Son of God, the Savior of the world. That person would not be the Son of God and would therefore have a different gospel. That person would steal salvation from those who would otherwise put their faith in Christ. The Book of Mormon preaches Jesus the Christ. He is mentioned on virtually every page of the book. When Joseph Smith organized the church in 1830, he preached Jesus the Christ (not another Jesus) and did not represent himself as a savior. It was, again, not till many years later that he started investigating other possibilities surrounding the godhead, and is one of the main reasons I believe that JS,Jr., became a fallen prophet. Hi Jenda, The context of the verses in 2 Cor. clearly state that there will be false apostles, and that they will be righteous to look upon, its always in the plural. Give me a example of how one would preach another Jesus and be righteous at the same time, at least to those they are deceiving? Its clear that they will preach Jesus, but that it would be a Jesus that can't save, a false ideology that would accompany this fake Jesus that would lead people astray. I believe that you answered your own answer when you said " It was, again, not till many years later that he started investigating other possibilities surrounding the godhead, and is one of the main reasons I believe that JS,Jr., became a fallen prophet." Joseph was preaching another jesus and another gospel while all the time portraying himself and those who were in his leadership as righteous apostles. What is the fruit of Joseph Smiths teachings, men can become God, Jesus was the brother of Lucifer, a council of Gods said "let there be light', masonry ceremonies ie. secret handshakes, death threats to those who blab the secrets, re-wrote the bible and put his own name in it, plural marrage? The legacy of JS is mass confusion. There are millions of men that believe that they can become by very nature God because of his teachings and his teachings alone. Men and women go to temples and actually believe thay are doing thing for others so they can be with God (read John 1:13). Don't you realize the damage this man has done to Christianity, he has taken Gods salvation away from God and gave it to the authority of man and has exalted men into the very nature of God, just as satan did to Eve see verse 3 of 2 Cor. 11. he has taken the simple salvation of God, by Grace and evolved it into the mess that it is today. This is a very serious issue and a very serious charge, why would you want to take a chance on this man, wouldn't it be wiser to trust in God , than to place your fate in the teachings of a man that you admit is a fallen teacher? About every minute a person becomes a member of the LDS church, all the while being taught that they can become by very nature God, or wife to him. What are you going to do about Jenda? Just say we all believe in the same thing and its OK? You are much brighter than that, be honest with yourself and test JS, he is either the real thing or he is a Cor. 2 apostle, he fits that mold perfectly. One thing bad about posting messages, and not speaking directly is that we can't read each other, I want you to know I'm not a bully like you've called me in the past, I not here to win a argument, I'm here to get to the truth, and believe that truth. I want you to do me a favor, pray for me this week that I would know that truth and I will pray for you to know what is true, pray that we can test what we believe with the Word and be strong enough to rejest anything that is not true, fair? Mark John 1:12

Hi Ray, You made a claim that needs to be addressed, maybe you didn't see my last post so I'll put it up top so you can see it. Its very important to back up such a claim that the LDS church teaches Jesus was always God? Where does it say that? Mark John 1:12

HI Jenda, Actually I believe it is both the reorg. and the Utah church, but I'm coming from the angle that you give a proclaimed prophet who you believe is not a prophet a free ride. I believe I understand why, but never the less it amazes me. My question to you is based on the reply that you gave to me that we all believe in the same God, when in fact it is very clear that we don't and Paul warned of others teaching ANOTHER Jesus and ANOTHER gospel, so my question stands..."Who are these other Jesus's that Paul is warning against and what is the other gospel that he warns against? Remember these people are righteous looking on the outside that Paul warns us against, they claim to be apostles and prophets, who are these people and how can we test those who claim to have such authority? Mark John 1:12

Hi Jenda, The God I worship has always been God, the god the LDS worship was once a sinful man, theres a big difference there. I do not worship the same God as your teachings define, nor do I worship the god of Joseph Smith, you should assume that we believe the same, because we don't. I believe that I can get to the presence of the Father because He loves me enough to forgive my sinful nature, LDS teachings teach that they have to work and prove themselves and then maybe? the Father will allow them in His Presence, big difference there. What do you do with verses in the bibles that teach that deceivers will come out of the church leading people astray to worship false gods. Thats why they are called sheeps in wolves clothing, that is what Paul in warning against ANOTHER JESUS and ANOTHER GOSPEL. If I am incorrect here, who is the other Jesus that Paul warns us against and what is the other gospel that he warns us against? If you claim to be a Prophet of God and you are not, then that makes one a FALSE prophet, not a almost prophet or a sometimes prophet, you either are or you are not. Any way let me know who from inside the Church is teaching another Jesus as Paul warns? mark Johyn 1:12

Hi Jenda, Then is it fair to say that the LDS church is led by men that, for what ever reason, are deceiving their people ( COJCOLDS ). This would mean that Hinkley and the 14 men under him are false apostles. Do you believe that they should be exposed as such as the Bible demands ( 2 Cor. 11 etc )? Mark john 1;12

Hi Jenda, Do you believe that Gordon Hinkley is a false Prophet? Mark John 1:12

Hi Bat, Ask for your answer in writting. And while your at it ask why they can have caffine now, my son asked a missionary last nigt about caffine and they told him they can drink it now as long as they don't get addicted. I might have to sue the church for mental issues from the beating I use to take as a kid from my non-LDS buddys for dogging me for always drinking rootbeer and not being able to drink a coke when we went to the market after school, thank God it wasn't against the word of wisdom to buy baseball cards. Mark John 1:12

We teach that Jesus was a created being only in the sense that He went from one “nature” to another, which was from only God to both Man and God, and then back to only God again. We do not teach that Jesus was created from out of nowhere or from out of nothing. Jesus has always existed, just as we have always existed, but Jesus has always been God. What do you mean by “Mankind’s sin nature”? And what do you mean by being saved “automatically”? You don’t believe that Mankind ceased to have a sinful nature since the moment that Jesus atoned for our sins, do you? We teach that Justice demanded that Mankind be separated from our heavenly Father because Adam and Eve, the Father and Mother of Mankind, were disobedient to Him in the Garden of Eden. This meant that Mankind could not produce a Mediator to atone for the sins of Mankind because all of Mankind inherited a sinful nature, but Jesus was God and could be that Mediator because was both God and Man. Mankind may now appeal to Jesus for Mercy by virtue of the atonement that Jesus offered for our sins, but that Mercy is not available only for the asking. It is now Jesus that expects us to exercise Faith in Him, and Repent for our sins. If we do not meet His demands, we will held accountable to Him, and there will be no other Redeemer. Grace is an extension of God’s love to Mankind, and it is given every time God does something to help us or help us know that He loves us. The greatest extension of Grace occurred when our heavenly Father sent His only begotten son to redeem us from our sins, but that Grace still continues as Christ continues to help us or help us know that He loves us. We teach that Man may become one with God as Christ is one with God, which is what Christ prayed for in the Garden of Gethsemane. Not that all of Mankind may become one with God, however, but that all of Mankind that our heavenly Father has given to Christ, and will give to Christ, from out of this world. I’m sure you could, but you will only show that you don’t have a correct understanding of LDS doctrine and that LDS are in fact Christians. No, we don’t think and believe some of the things that you do, or things that some other Christians believe, but who is right and who is wrong is a matter for Christ to determine. I proclaim that I do follow Christ, and that I try to do that at least as well as you do. Hi Ray, You raise some intersesting questions I would love to discuss, I'll bring up one at a time so we can get into each subject. You said; "We teach that Jesus was a created being only in the sense that He went from one “nature” to another, which was from only God to both Man and God, and then back to only God again. We do not teach that Jesus was created from out of nowhere or from out of nothing. Jesus has always existed, just as we have always existed, but Jesus has always been God." Please give sone back up to your statement 'that Jesus was always God' LDS teachings say that Jesus was the oldest 'brother' born to Elohim out of intelligences all mankind, including Satan are his brothers and sisters. Are you saying that "we are all Gods already? or will you admit that what you said that Jesus has always been God a false statement? I was always taught that all mankind were created through pro-creation to Elohim and his wife from intelligence, to spirit form, and from there pro-created to carnal form from earthly parents, thus making us created beings. The POGP says that the gods CREATED man, the Bible says that God CREATED man. I will stand by my statement that the LDS church teaches that Jesus was a created being and had to progress to the nature of god by the very same eternal laws that the LDS church and teaching teach. If I am wrong here, show me through LDS teachings where it says Jesus has always been God, why did he get a free ride from eternal progression that is a standard teaching of the Chruch? Or if we are all Gods, is Lucifer a fallen God? Can Jesus or Elohim fall at any given point in time? I would like to address each question on there own merits but first lets get to the bottom of the nature of the LDS Christ vs. the Nature of the Biblical Christ? fair? This is a great discussion topic and look forward for you answers and insight. Thanks Mark John 1:12

Hi Jason, You Said: " I suppose my question to you would be,whether or not you think that Mormons are following God to the best of their knowledge, or if they under the power of the "angel of light" who apparently is Lucifer?" My point and belief is that the LDS church teaches ANOTHER JESUS and ANoTHER GOSPEL, as a member of the church for over 30 years I know that the god I believed in as a member is different from the God taught in the Bible...Is the angel of light that Joseph saw in vision Lucifer? I have no idea, but Paul warned us not to give heed to a angel of light, so I'll take the safe road there. I believe LDS members follow 'God' to the best of thier knowlage, my point (and Pauls warning) is what God are they following? If you test the LDS God with the God of the bible you have two different Gods, its that simple. You said: "Im not sure how you can say that they've done a 180. To me, it's more like a 40 degree alteration. And using the word "agenda" only charges the discussion. If you want to be technical, even Christ has an "agenda". Don't make it sound like only Mormons want to convert the world. Wouldnt you agree that even Christians would like to see Mormons converted to a more orthodox position?" I believe and I also believe I can prove that LDS doctrine is the opposite of Biblical doctrine in most essential doctrines..... 1. Biblical God always God, LDS God once a man 2. Biblical Salvation is by God and God alone to ONLY those who believe and receive Grace, LDS salvation is automatic to all. 3. Biblical God is One God, LDS gods are uncountable ( although they teach they worship only two, most the time?) Biblical Jesus is God who laid His reputation of God aside and took on the nature of man, LDS Jesus was created and is by nature the same essence as Satan (Jesus and Lucifer were brothers) 4. Biblical God atoned for our sins on the cross, LDS God did it in the Graden. I can go on and on but I consider these teachings 180 degrees from biblical teachings, you can put any number on them as you like, but bottom line is they are in direct contradiction of each other, they can both be wrong, but they can't both be right. "Agenda" is not a good word, it sounds to political, lets say "mission", I stand corrected. Although I have no problem with you believing that I have a agenda to share the word of God with you, because in a way I do, but it does sound worldly. You said:... " Good point. I've never really thought of it like that. That might be why Traveler and Ray insist that more than the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can be of the "god" classification. It would be necessary if one was to accept the Book of Abraham in the LDS Pearl of Great Price as scripture. Thanks for the insight. " It really doesn't matter what Ray or Traveler insist on, my point is that LDS doctrine and teachings demand that all worthy male members of the LDS church can beome by very nature the same nature as the LDS god Elohim. They might not be as "progressed" as Elohim at this point in time, but at some point if they live according to eternal law as taught in LDS teachings and Preached by the Prophets. I believe it was Hinkley that said to the men at a priesthood conference that everyone sitting there had the potentail to become a god.....This is LDS doctrine to the core, this is what LDS Temples give opportunity for, and this is what will forever seperate the LDS church from what the Bible teaches. You said: ..... " Maybe it would be more appropriate to say that LDS teachings have Christian teachings, as well as unique mormon teachings? " That would not be appropriate in the view of the Christain church with so many contridictions between the two when it comes essential doctrine, lets call a spade a spade, be proud you are LDS, but don't say your something your not. ottom line is LDS doctrine is not christain Doctrine. You said" .... " I disagree. Mormons teach faith, repentance, and baptism for the remision of sins. Though they certainly have expounded on that more than most, what could be more basic than that? " Faith is only as good as the object in which you put that faith in, so thats not really a talking point here. Baptism according to LDS doctrine is confussing in that they teach that it is necessary for salvation, yet they teach all are saved. When you get to the nitty gritty you tell me what LDS salvation does for a member in and by its self. It is not the Christian baptism its is a LDS baptism. Christain baptism is a heart thing in that God looks at the persons heart, LDS baptism is a AUTHORITY issue which needs man to be involved in the process by AUTHORITY. LDS repentence is also confussing in that again all are saved automatically, why repent? The biblical teaching of repentece is not only to stop you sin, but to do a 180 and follow another (Jesus), we as Christian turn from our sin nature and put on a new nature which is being clothed in Jesus's righteousness, it is imputed to us, practacally we still sin, but by position of being in the body (the Church) of Christ we are pure in Gods eyes. I said alot here if you have a response please respond one question at a time so we can really get into it, to many points make for a long night. IF you need and biblical back up, or LDS back up for anything I said please let me know. Thanks Mark John 1:12

Hi, All the horses were in heaven eating celestial vegtables, if you don't believe me ask Orson Pratt. John 1:12

Hi Ray, You said "Why believe something that is contrary to teachings in the scriptures? " Think about it, Mormonism is contrary to what the bible teaches? Mark John 1:12