Webster

Hemidakota, I learned some interesting things from what you included above, but I think I may have missed what you were getting at. Was there something in there that pointed out when Joseph Smith received the Holy Ghost, or were you including the information in response to other comments that were made? Was it to answer the idea that John the Baptist may have performed the ordinance, or that the ordinance would have been done after Peter, James, and John restored the Melchizedek priesthood? What am I missing?

I find your calling a dried up umbilical cord a 'scab', a bit imprecise. My point is that the scar found at the site of the belly button was created by the body, not an incision. It is not a "scar" made by cutting the cord. If the doctor cut the cord at one inch, your children do not wind up with a one inch belly button. If the doctor cuts it at one inch or three inches, the cord dries up to where the child's body begins. You are not left with a one or three inch belly button. That wasn't a scab which fell off, it was the dried umbilical cord. Scabs don't progress from the point of injury down into living tissue. They cover a wound. When I cut my finger it forms a scab at the site. The scab does not spread down my finger, nor does my finger dry up for an inch, otherwise, a cut on the tip of your finger would result in you losing about an inch of your finger! Perhaps at the resurrection we should also have holes in our hearts and bones in our sculls that are soft and not fused as that is the condition of a baby at birth. My point is that the 'scar' of the belly button was naturally produced by our body, and is not the remnants of a wound.

I side with the idea that Adam and Eve's bodies in the Garden did not have the ability to procreate. I heard long ago (but have no quotes) that our mortal bodies have the ability to precreate mortal children, and that God's resurrected, exalted, celestial body can procreate spirit children. Those who do not attain the highest heaven in the celestial kingdom cannot procreate, neither can they of lower kingdoms. As the scripture says, there are bodies celestial and bodies terrestrial. The ability to procreate would be one of the differences between these different type of bodies. (Can you imagine the population explosion in the telestial kingdom with all the adulterers running rampant?) It could even be argued that resurrected, exalted, celestial beings can sire a mortal (well at least an only begotten one), or that they can create spiritual bodies (physical, immortal bodies that are not perfected as are resurrected bodies). In summary, I don't think Adam and Eve's bodies were able to produce offspring while in the Garden. Lehi seems to say that since there was no death in Eden, there could be no life, and all things would have remained in the state in which they were created forever (2 Nephi 2:22-23). Also Adam fell that men might be (2 Nephi 2:25). I take that to mean that the fall made it possible for men (Adam and Eve's descendents) to exist, something not possible before the fall. Eve also acknowledges after the fall that they could not have had seed until after their transgression (Moses 5:11).

I take some of the Genesis account as figurative as I believe the temple may allude to. While we're using scripture to suggest Adam's parentage or not, what about the following? Luke 3:38 Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God. Moses 6:22 (also in JST) And this is the genealogy of the sons of Adam, who was the son of God, with whom God, himself, conversed.

Since the umbilical cord dries and falls off, it cannot leave a scar. The place where the incision was made is no longer there. What is left is what the body did after it removed the part (cord) which was not it's body.

Where, when, and from whom did Joseph Smith get the Holy Ghost? I can't think of any place that gives information about Joseph Smith receiving the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, the ordinance of confirmation, or the baptism of fire. I was reading in Joseph Smith-History when it hit me. I've heard about him receiving the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, baptism, ordination to the office of Elder, and receiving various visitations and keys in the priesthood. Does anyone know something about his receiving the Holy Ghost?

Here is a way in which Adam can be seen as a type of Christ: Christ voluntarily chose to take on a mortal body in order to save his fallen brothers and sisters. After Eve partook of the fruit, she was condemned to a mortal, fallen condition. If Adam had chosen to stay in Eden, she would have been forever lost. But instead, Adam voluntarily chose to leave his paradise and partake of mortality with her. He fell, that men might be. In a very real sense, Adam's fall made it possible for Eve to be redeemed, since through their posterity the Messiah came and opened the way for their escape. Adam's voluntary fall made Eve's redemption possible.

More information on the idea of killing yourself to get to the telestial kingdom: Life On Gold Plates: Committing Suicide to get to the Telestial Kingdom. This site takes Patriarch emeritus Eldred G. Smith's quote (mentioned above in comment #11) and works backward from there. Very interesting.

Why does 'cleave' mean to cut or split into two, or to hold fast and bind together?

I have heard Jesus referred to as the 'Second Adam' or as the 'Last Adam'. These terms seem to come from Romans 5:12-19 and 1 Corinthians 15:45-49. What do you think is meant by the idea that Christ is the 'Second Adam'? I know there are lots of commentaries out there, but I am mainly interested in hearing your ideas and points of view. You may want to discuss Comparable ideas, for example: both Adam and Jesus were foreordained, volunteered to take significant roles in the plan of salvation, and were not born to mortal parents in the normal manner. You may want to discuss Contrasting ideas, for example: through Adam we have our physical birth and physical and spiritual death were introduced, while through Jesus we have our spiritual rebirth and physical and spiritual death were overcome. Or you may want to address ways in which Adam is a Type (or is symbolic) of Christ. Please share your ideas, whether profound or simple.

No offense, but I believe that 'quote' is a Mormon myth and not reliable. If anyone can prove me wrong, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, I propose that we stop perpetuating that idea. I had a friend who has tried to locate the quote, and I've tried for a while too, and we can't find the original.

Thank you for the welcomes. I realize my opening post was odd. I'm most interested in the Forums part of LDS.NET, so I thought I'd use this initial post as a chance to see how things work. I've got a few questions that I've wondered about for a while, so I'm looking forward to seeing the different points of view of the LDS.NET members.

I take it that this forum is a place to get your without making major blunders in public, so here goes. In case you haven't figured it out yet, I'm trying some of the BB Code formatting codes to see how they work as well. [Later that evening...] It looks like I've spent enough time on the computer for tonight. After I get the kids in bed, I think I'll watch 24.