Janice

As soon as they have the title Prophet, Seer and Revelatory, then I will regard what they teach us as scripture.

Ben, I think you are right, and I stand corrected. Turns out I am guilty of the very thing I often accuse others of doing... I heard a local leader express his opinion that it's a good idea to not wear them while working out, and over time I cemented this in my mind as a firm commandment: "Thou shalt remove thy garments to work out." I appreciate the reminder that my own notion of how things are is not THE ONLY way things have to be. Thank you Janice

Looking forward to it. I'd like to see a quote from an apostle, if possible. Everything else, in by book, is just advice.

I have never heard or read this principle taught by a G.A. Sure, they teach us to dress modestly, as they should. And I agree 100% with all of their teachings on dressing modestly. But I have NEVER heard them say we need to do so because not doing so will cause others to have impure thoughts. The only people I have ever heard espousing this idiot notion is over-zealous, phobia-driven young women leaders... the same leaders who teach that girls should wear a t-shirt over their one-piece swim suits so as not to ensnare some poor boy and cause him to sin by seeing the shape of the girl's body. Hey, you know what? Maybe the Muslims have it right, and all girls post-puberty should wear full burkas when going outside. The reason they wear them, of course, is because they know that lustful, evil men can't handle seeing the shape of a woman's body without having impure thoughts. Blhat! Ew! Ish!

Yup, with the exception of the standard exceptions: showering, swimming, working out, and sex. I prefer to not wear them to work out... don't feel its respectful to drench them in sweat and BO. When we go to the beach, hubby and I wear garments until we get there, then we slip out of them and into swimsuits in the back of the minivan (taking advantage of tinted windows) and then do the same before the drive home. I am not, however, a garment nazzi who believes we should never, ever have them off.

I agree. I love wearing garments and do so as often as I can. And I enjoy wearing clothing that respects them.

I abhor this theory. I despise it. I view it as the pinnacle of false modesty doctrine. I will never teach my girls that their bodies, by simply existing, will cause boys to have impure thoughts. What a splendid way to teach them to fear their own bodies. What a fantastic way to teach them to fear the thoughts of boys. I hung my head in sadness, when, a few months ago, we did a youth temple trip and I watched as a handful of young women in the ward opted out of the trip because they were afraid the young men would be "looking them up" as they came out of the font dripping wet with the jump suits clinging to their bodies. So out of fear of the young men and the possible impure thoughts they might cause them to have towards their bodies, they opted to not go to the temple. This horrible, awful teaching poisons the minds of our girls. When we teach our girls this terrible principle, we also teach them the flip side of the same idea: If you want to yield power over boys, just show a little skin. Not in my family. Ick. Janice

Duly noted as your opinion. The following is just mine As for mixed signals, well, that is exactly what we are trying to avoid. Our kids are not confused about showing their bodies to others, just as I wasn't growing up the same way. I am concerned about the mixed signals in the other direction. Here's what I mean. The media tells our kids that our bodies are sexy, and that flaunting them and using them for sex is fun and exciting. We often respond with what seems like a natural retort. "Hide your body! Don't ever show it to anyone! Doing so is not modest! If others see you it can lead to impure thoughts and actions!" When we react to one extreme (media pushing sex) with another extreme (false modesty), nobody wins, and the message we send is often not what we intended. Too often this is what our kids hear: Our bodies must be kept hidden because they are pornographic and carnal, and they can cause others to sin. I know this is not what we MEAN to tell our kids, but I'm afraid it's the message we send. We inadvertently try and scare them into modesty, and we use their bodies as the scare tactic. This is exactly what Satan would have us believe: There is something wrong with our bodies. We are trying to avoid those mixed signals by letting them learn that their bodies are glorious, wonderful creations of their loving Heavenly Father. I know. I know. This is a radical approach for us North American Mormons. But believe me... to families in many other parts of the world, this conversation would seem strange for the opposite reason you think it does. :) So much of what we think of as right and wrong is cultural. So much. Janice

I have not been clear, and for that I beg your forgiveness. Lemme try again... Scripture study is a hobby of mine. I have studied and taken notes on many topics, modesty being just one of them. I have never set out looking for quotes on leotards or dance outfits. But, as it just so happens, in all my wanderings, I have also never found any. Here's my point guys, and gals.... Lots a ya seem to think me odd for not caring if my girls wear leotards at dance. You seem to think me even more odd for not closing doors when i shower, and for letting my kids have fun in their skivvies (or less). You seem to think I am allowing them to be immodest. All I am saying is this: We differ on the definition of modesty. You seem to want to make it a clothing based principle.... when one wears clothing that shows to much skin or body shape, it's not modest. I want to make it a "being" based principle.... If someone is honest, chaste, moral, reserved (etc) then they are a modest person, and the simple act of wearing something like a leotard at dance (or nothing at all at home) is not immodest. We can agree to disagree, and I am fine with that. All I ask is that we also agree that your definition of modesty is not the only definition, and that there is room for some wiggling. :) Janice

Ok, chilled. Glad to know it was just an expression. It's just that often "expressions" are loaded with connotations. Right. And bake cookies. Dunno if you have ever seen kids deal with flower and sugar and eggs, but, wow. It get's messy in a hurry, and... well, I confess, I sometimes encourage the mess by starting food fights. In fact, the cookies become more of an afterthought as coating the kitchen in flower seems to often become the goal. Cleanup is is simpler when I can just hose the kids off on the back porch. Janice!

Really?

Wow. Them's pretty harsh words Wingnut. I am sorry you are making this personal. And I wonder how you know me well enough to put that kind of judgment on me. Am I wrong to have searched the Scriptures and modern Prophets to try to understand modesty?

Ummm... back the boat up. I thought you were going to ask if it's wrong to go shopping without your garments on, because I just assumed you would take them off to workout. Maybe I missed something, but I am pretty sure we ain't supposed to be wearing garments to work out. Am I wrong? I'm gonna hafta look this one up. Janice!

With ya on that one.

Parade? Who's parading? Why do you assume that if we are not wearing any clothes at home that we are parading? This seems to imply that we strip naked, line up single file, strike up a nifty John Sousa march, and then stomp around the house while flinging arms and legs into the air. Well, we don't do that. *When* we are without clothing (which ain't often), it is to do activities that you also do sans clothing.... namely, shower and get dressed. The difference is, we don't see anything wrong with doing these activities with the doors open. (Just for the record, that "other" thing mom's and dad's do with no clothing... you know the one... well, we do that with just the two of us, and we do it behind closed and locked doors. Just for the record.) I am not surprised you are having a hard time with some of these ideas. That's a very normal reaction when you encounter an idea that contradicts what you have been taught your entire life. I do hope you will have an open mind, and that you will at least listen and consider, rather then rejecting outright. :) Oh, I could not agree more! We SHOULD always be modest. And modesty begins at home! But... here we are... back to clothing again... if kids take off their clothes to run through the sprinkler in the back yard, does the mere absence of clothing automatically render them immodest? If a mom and dad keep the door open while showering and then toweling off so daughters can use the mirror to brush hair and teeth at the same time, does the mere absence of clothing automatically render these parents immodest? Does modestly mean we must always hide God's creation, even from our own kin? Where did this idea come from? Who was it that first taught us to hide our bodies from loved ones? Yes! Teach respect, awe and reverence for our bodies. Yes! Teach moderation and cleanliness in the clothing we choose to wear. Yes! Teach morality and chastity. Yes! Teach proper respect for the opposite gender. I am on board with all of this! But nowhere, in all the canonized works or words of modern Prophets have I once seen any creed, quote, or teaching which tells my that letting my kids run nude in the back yard, or sharing the bathroom as we all get ready for church on Sunday is a sin. This may be a conclusion at which you have arrived. But I have not. And I've given it a lot of thought and study and prayer. :) Janice!

Huh? Someone is doing that?

Charley! Woooh! I don't know WHY God gave the clothing, and neither do you. All we can do is guess. What did He do just after making them clothes? Kicked them out of the garden! Is it possible that he made them clothing of leather to protect them from the harsh elements, the briers, the thistles, and the noxious weeds that did not exist in the Garden? Dunno. It's AS possible as the theory that he gave them clothing because he wanted them to be modest. Personally, I find it strange to think that up to now, nudity was okay, and then all of a sudden like... it wasn't. And I confess, I have not prayed nor sought inspiration about why God made them clothing. I HAVE, however, done both on how to raise my kids. My point exactly Charlie! I choose to NOT listen to society, but to study out the issues in the scriptures and the Ensigns, and then to formulate my own conclusions based on prayer and meditation. But, you see, the idea a leotards on a girl is immodest.. that is your opinion, and not a universal fact. And I don't believe you will find anything in any Ensign or Conference talk to support your opinion. YES! Much has been said about modesty, and I agree to the last whit with everything that has been said! But I have not found anything which tells me how I should dress my daughter when she goes to dance class. If YOU want to draw your conclusions about leotards, that is your right, but please, don't assume that your conclusion is the same conclusion everyone should have. Again... modesty is so much more about how we behave, how we act, how we live and who we are. If we are humble, honest, meek, patient, kind, charitable, forgiving, slow to anger... well then, I don't believe that wearing a leotard while dancing is immodest. Janice.

You work out in your garments? I thought we were not supposed to do that. I appreciate your thoughts, Charley, and I respect them. I just don't agree with them all :) I too believe that modesty is important to chastity and morality. What I don't see is how wearing a leotard while dancing is immoral or unchaste. For you, it always seems to come back to how much of the body's skin and curves are visible to other people. For me, it always comes back to the inner thoughts, the spirit, the humility, and the actions of the person. If my daughter IS a modest person in her heart, mind and soul, then wearing a leotard while dancing will not unravel her innate modesty. Janice!

Applepansy, I can't blame you for not having read everything in this very-long thread, but if you look back... somewhere, you will see that I shared earlier that I have already dug to the very inner depths of lds-dot-org looking for every quote and passage I can find on modesty and clothing. In my humble opinion, they all come down to this: When you are dressed, dress modestly. Not only have I found nothing with which I disagree, I also found nothing which tells me our chosen life style is wrong. If, however, you know of a quote that I missed, then please do share!!! I admit it's possible that I missed something. Please know that I am not interested in a vague quote on modesty followed up by your opinion and your conclusion... but I would be interested in a quote from a church leader which says, in a nut shell, "After a certain age, children should no longer be nude at home." Or, "After a certain age, children should no longer see their parents naked." I have looked for such quotes, and trust me, they ain't there!!! You want to know why I think they are not there? Because the LDS church is a multi-national, multi-cultural church, and while in North America many of you think it's wrong for kids to be naked at home and for kids and parents to share bathrooms at the same time, in most other cultures, this is absolutely normal. Janice

I've read this account carefully. Recently. Up to this point, you are on solid ground. This, however, is your personal interpretation. I don't think it can be supported with any hard scripture, modern or ancient. We are told God gave them clothing to cover their nakedness, and from this we all assume the reason why is because from this point forward, being naked was naughty. The truth is we are never told why God created clothing for them, or why he wanted them to cover their nakedness. Our modern culture would lead us to believe it's because Heavenly Father now wanted them to be "modest" (quotes VERY intentional), even around each other, but I simply can't find any actual scripture to back that up, and I think it's purely a cultural belief. Ie: We today always (falsely?) associate modesty first and foremost with clothing. God gave Adam and Eve clothing. Conclusion:Obviously, God loved them wanted them to be modest. There is a latin name for that kind of faulty logic, but I don't recall it anymore. It's been WAY too long since that logic class my hubby took and I helped him study for. I wonder... if we all lived back in, say, Roman times, the time of Christ, maybe before, when clothing was viewed not as a way to keep from being naked and embarrassed, but as a luxury, a protection from the elements. Many people could afford only rags, and things such as leather (animal skin) was only for the very rich indeed. I wonder if we might look at this same passage of scripture and think: Obviously, God loved them and wanted them to be warm and comfortable once they were out of The Garden My point is, our culture has such a strong influence on how we draw our conclusions, and often we don't even realize it. So, anywhoo, this is a long way away from dance leotards where this topic began, but I've enjoyed it anyhow. For the record, I like clothing, and when my kids wanna start wearing them, they will. But their mummy and daddy are not about to force them to put them on because culture and society tells us it's not right for them to be without. I prefer to do my own thinking, and let them do the same, instead of conforming blindly to the wants of society Janice!

Wow! Really? This makes me so sad. What has happened to us? I wish we could go back to these times and attitudes. Janice

They should be practicing anatomy? Ha, ok, I know what you mean, even though I don't agree. Here again, I think this is a matter of tradition. We teach our kids to cover up once they reach a certain age, because our parents taught us the same, and their parents taught them the same... and back it goes. Like cutting the ends off a roast. But, to this I ask.... "Why?" Honestly, where is the harm? I grew up in a home where naked bodies were not common, but they were also not naughty.... at any age. Seeing all families members of all genders as God created them was never shocking, horrible, embarrassing, funny, awful, etc etc etc (said a la The Kind and I). It's not like we hung out in the buff, but we also didn't hide at shower time, and we all shared the one-and-only bathroom we had in our house. This concept took my hubby some getting used to when our oldest started to become more aware, but he has thanked me 1,000 times (not 999, and not 1,001) for having opened his understanding to how unnecessary it is to hide from each other. I get a kick out of kids who positively FREAK at the idea of seeing their parents or grown siblings sans clothing. Chill already! This is my personal opinion, and how I will raise my own family. I don't know what you teach your children, and I'm not intending to be judgmental. It's just my personal belief that they're old enough to make up their own mind about being naked anymore, and mature enough to handle it respectfully Janice

Well, I wasn't there, so I'll have to take your word for it. I wonder.... who at BYU approved such immodest outfits? I hope they were properly ex-communicated Ok, sorry for the sarcasm. That wasn't very modest of me. Janice

Fantastic article. I like it. And I agree with everything said. I also don't see how or where it tells us that taking dance lessons in leotards is wrong. I believe we can wear a leotard and still be humble, respectful, and reverent towards our bodies, ourselves, and our divine nature. Janice

I am really not sure how to say this and not sound condescending. Please know that this is NOT my intent, but I have been told my dear friends that I can sound preachy and prideful when I am only stating my point of view. So, I ask forgiveness in advance. I wish you and your friends could have looked past the clothing and saw the people and the dance talents they had worked so hard to develop. I wish you could have focused not on how much of their skin was showing, and not on how many of their curves were visible... but on who they were, the expressions on their faces, the level of their dance skills, and the beauty of their performance. Janice