Janice

I love FARMS. I usually turn to them when I can't find answers on puzzling gospel questions, and I almost always find the most excellent articles that give me a great deal to think about. I was wondering if Sunstone might be more of the same... sounds like maybe not. Janice

I have not read the replies... just offering my input. We have a virtual arsenal of firearms locked in a gun safe in the basement. To the everlasting delight of my hubby, our oldest daughter (the tomboy) has expressed some interest in knowing how to hunt, so they have gone together. I expect my son, the youngest might as well when he's out of diapers and can talk :) but of course that will be his choice. I find the liberal idea that "guns are evil" to be downright ridiculous. Janice

This is what I've heard said about them in the past, almost word for word. And I must confess, when I hear this my mind jumps right to, "But WHY?" Like a child who's told, "Don't open that door!" I guess I'm curious to learn more about what's so wrong with them without joining/subscribing, which it looks like you have to do to really learn what they are all about? Thanks, Janice

I'm curious what anyone may know or think about the LDS group known as Sunstone. What little I've heard has not been positive, and from looking at their site I am not able to glean much. Thoughts? Thanks, Janice

While I agree with you, Mike, on using personal inspiration and the Holy Ghost to find "personal" truth, the idea of using it to find "absolute" truth makes me nervous. But as I am typing this, I am finding it very hard to put into words why I feel this way. Here's my best shot: Once we claim to be the possessor of absolute truth, we then set ourselves up to take the position that I am right and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong. The hubris of this position flies in the face of all that I believe and have been taught about humility. It causes us to close our mind to other "truths" that may be out there. If I am right and you (used loosely) are wrong, then the conversation is over. I might be willing to agree that absolute, unchangeable, unconquerable, unbendable, universal truths do exist, and while I have and will continue to strive to get closer and closer to these truths via the methods you mentioned (prayer, study, Holy Ghost), I don't think I will ever claim to have obtained them or to fully understand them. As soon as I do, I fear I will have committed the ultimate form of pride. Janice EDIT: My thoughts on this are very malleable, and I welcome any well thought out challenges to what I've said.

You and I, and most people on this forum agree on this point. But, if you asked a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist or an atheist, truth to them would be very different. Is there an example of Truth on which all humanity can agree? Janice

Who says the dictionary is right? That definition of truth is nothing more then the opinion of the lexicographer who wrote the dictionary. After scanning this thread, I tend to agree more with Hordak.

One more thought... I've always found it down right odd how much non-Mormons get worked up over what we do in our temples. As much as I love and respect our temple ordinances, I've always thought an outsider who did not love them would find them boring. What does HBO hope to accomplish? What are people hoping to see? I expect some Mormon-haters will feel let down to find that we don't have orgies, we don't sacrifice chickens, and we don't howl at the moon. In the big picture, what HBO and Tom Hanks do is very much a non-issue. Janice

I can certainly understand how you feel. When I first heard about HBO airing the temple ceremony I was outraged. But then I cooled off a little. Then a lot. Let Satan do his worst, it won't slow The Work one bit. As for Tom Hanks and his movies, I've never been that enamored with him anyhow and we don't own anything he's in or produced. Not because I have avoided his works, but just because he's never done anything that wowed me. Do as you wish with his movies you own. He will never know or care, but if it makes you feel better then have at it :-) Janice

What was his Mormons/Un-American comment?

My reaction may depend on who's talking. There is a dear fellow in our ward who's in his late 30's and who has five kids and who often raises his hand in Sunday School and almost every time his comment begins, "On my mission...". I find myself having to repent every time he does it. But, when another brother in our ward told a story in a talk which began, "I recall a lesson I first learned as a young, wet-behind-the-ears Elder fresh out of the MTC...." I had never heard this man talk about his mission before, and I perked right up. Janice

This was a wise choice on his part, and he was right to do so. I'd be willing to bet he never said anything like, "... and anyone who would do differently is wrong." but, that's just a guess. Janice

I had an English teacher say to me once, "'What If' is a question for Philosophers and Fools." Most politicians are not philosophers.

I'm very sorry to hear this Maxel. I hope you feel better soon. I've not been around long enough to notice a change in your posts, but I've always found them to be tremendously Christian. In fact I've often found myself thinking, "I need to try harder to sound more like Maxel when I post." Get better. Janice

Islander, if you are referring the examples I gave, making the issue a bit blurry was exactly my desire :). I wanted to show how non-black and white this issue is. Even if you were referring to another post (Maxel's?), I agree with you all the same :-) This is another good example of why personal revelation is so important. I hold firm to the idea that it's impossible to look to scripture, conference talks, and the Church Handbook for the answers to every puzzle that comes up in life. Eventually we will all run into choices that require us to think for ourselves, make our own choices, and then get on our knees and ask God if we have chosen correctly. Neither my husband or I have ever been confronted with the prospect of providing for our family with proceeds from non-Word-of-Wisdom approved products, so this particular issue has never been an issue.... for us. But we know people for whom it has been an issue. Some have decided that a change in career was required. Others have decided that a change in career was not required. Both are correct. Janice

Fair enough :)

I hope you don't mind, Maxel, if I play School Teacher with your English here. This could be read a couple different ways: Would you support your own family by distributing chemicals which are prohibited by God? OR Would you support your own family in ways prohibited by God by distributing chemicals? Maybe some would say it's half a dozen of one, six of the other? But either way, I think we aught to mention that God has not necessarily given a blanket "I FORBID" on these chemicals to all of humanity. He HAS asked Latter-day Saints (in OUR dispensation) to refrain from these chemicals, and so we rightly do. But those not of our religion are under no such commandment to abstain. Drinking and smoking is not on the same plain as murder and adultery, both of which all humanity has been given a blanket "THOU SHALT NOT". (Exceptions to every rule, of course, as in Nephi and Labon, but I think we can stick with the non-exceptions for the point of this discussion.) It most certainly is, as you say, a very non black and white issue. Would I own a bar? No. Would I own a grocery store that sold beer? Probably. In all honestly, I would feel more guilty about making my employees working on Sunday then I would about selling beer. Janice

That's too bad, and is (in my opinion) an example of the judgmental attitude that was discussed in another thread recently.

We have a good friends, very active LDS couple, he owns a chain of grocery stores. His stores sell "soft" alcohol" such as sell beer and wine coolers. And, his stores are open on Sundays. Our bishop owns a business with several thousand employees. When some of them travel, they buy alcohol and get reimbursed from company funds. When he throws Christmas parties he fund an open bar. When living over seas we were friends with an LDS Air Force Colonel who had a closet full of booze. The hard stuff. He never drank it, but he served it at parties when he entertained. He was our Branch President. I have an uncle, active LDS, who lives in Vegas and sells for a company that supplies casino's with food, drink and alcohol. He makes a commission on all of it, a large portion of his income comes from alcohol sales. There is a chain of gas stations in our area owned by a large holding company who's CEO is LDS, used to be in the Stake Presidency. All of the gas stations sell beer, cigarettes, and porn magazines. They are also open on Sundays. The Marriott chain of hotels are owned my Brother Marriott, an active member. Wine is on all the menus and porn can be rented on all of the TV's. Notice, I am not offering my opinion on any of these. I'm just sharing facts. Janice

I don't know you well enough to know if you are kidding or joking, Moksha. If you are joking, then I'm laughing. If you are serious, then I hope you never become our Prophet!! Janice

B as in B, S as in S. Sorry japacific. I work in education and I am encased every day at work by Global Warming teachers who push this notion onto young minds who don't yet know how to think objectively and logically. And of all the bunk and garbage arguments I hear that boils my blood, "The consensus of the scientists agree" is BY FAR the worst. Here's why: 1) It just is not true. Start asking around. Seek out meteorologists, climatologists, chemists, and biologists and ask them their opinion. NONE of the ones I know believe the Global Warming is a threat. The ONLY people (I hear) claiming that "the consensus of the scientists agree" is NON-scientists, such as Al Gore, the vast majority of grade school teachers, Hollywood actors, and politicians. 2) Claiming consensus is nothing more then a way to shut down discussion. If you want to shut the other side up quickly, just say "Everyone agrees. The debate is over." 3) By claiming consensus long enough and loud enough, the weak-minded fall in line. "Oh really? Everyone agrees? I don't want to be the only one not agreeing. I guess I agree too, then." The alarmist scare tactics of the global warming crowd is just downright pathetic. I know that sounds harsh, but there really is no better word for it. Now...... All of that being said, I am a FIRM believer in being a good steward of our planet. One might even say I am an environmentalist, and I get upset when my political party turns their back on ideas such as renewable energy and oil independence. How does climate change relate / fit into the Gospel? We have been given this earth. It is our duty to be good stewards of our charge. Treat her with the same love and tender care you would a child or a loved one. Janice

Justice, that is the most clear and precise answer I've ever heard on that passage of scripture, which has always confused me. Thank you!

I did not know he asked members to do this! Can you show us the reference? (Would like to use in a talk or lesson, but would like the quote b4 doing so.)

In (kinda) breaking my promise to not post in this thread anymore, I share the following quotes. These are not my words... I no longer wish to share my own words in this thread, as no matter what I say, someone twists it into something I did not say. I'm not even going to bold anything because some will accuse me of having not understood something because of what I chose to bold. I would love to include the entire talks, but that would be too long. If you feel that by selecting the quotes I have that I've failed to grasp the over all meaning of the talk, or if you feel safe in judging that I do not understand some basic gospel principle, please counter with your own selected quotes from the same talks. Christ: “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” (Matt. 7:1–5.) Elder Lynn A. Mickelsen: LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Atonement, Repentance, and Dirty Linen What should we do when we have knowledge of others’ problems? 1. Don’t judge. Leave judgment to the Lord, the perfect judge. Let us not examine or explore others’ sins but look to their divinity. It is not ours to delve into others’ problems but rather to perceive the breadth of their goodness. 2. We must forgive. Although we may have been personally wounded, the Lord said, “I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.” 11 3. Forget. A relentless memory can canker the most resilient spirit. Leave it alone; lay it down; put it away. If the wave of temptation to reveal others’ sins comes over you, don’t tell your neighbor or even your best friend. Go to your bishop. Leave the burden with him. If it is required, report it to the civil or criminal authorities and then leave it alone. I believe that to receive the precious promise that Alma received requires the same spirit and action he took regarding his, and others’, dirty linen. But what if we are right and they are wrong? Shouldn’t we make our position public so others will not judge us to have made the mistake? The Lord has been clear in His instruction regarding this dilemma. It is not our prerogative to judge. The mote is not ours to measure, for the beam in our own eye obstructs our capacity to see. There is no pancake so thin it has only one side. Empathy is required here, the gift to feel what others feel and to understand what others are experiencing. Empathy is the natural outgrowth of charity. It stimulates and enhances our capacity to serve. Empathy is not sympathy but understanding and caring. It is the basis of true friendship. Empathy leads to respect and opens the door to teaching and learning. The Sioux Indians understand this great principle as they pray, “Great Spirit, help me to never judge another until I have walked for two weeks in his moccasins.” Elder Robert S. Wood: LDS.org - Ensign Article - Instruments of the Lord’s Peace “This is a church that holds out peace to the world. It is not our duty to go into the world and find fault with others, neither to criticize men because they do not understand” Joseph B. Worthlin: LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Virtue of Kindness When we are filled with kindness, we are not judgmental. The Savior taught, “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.” 4 He also taught that “with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” 5 “But,” you ask, “what if people are rude?” Love them. “If they are obnoxious?” Love them. “But what if they offend? Surely I must do something then?” Love them. “Wayward?” The answer is the same. Be kind. Love them. Marvin J. Ashton: LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Tongue Can Be a Sharp Sword Perhaps the greatest charity comes when we are kind to each other, when we don’t judge or categorize someone else, when we simply give each other the benefit of the doubt or remain quiet. Charity is accepting someone’s differences, weaknesses, and shortcomings; having patience with someone who has let us down; or resisting the impulse to become offended when someone doesn’t handle something the way we might have hoped. Charity is refusing to take advantage of another’s weakness and being willing to forgive someone who has hurt us. Charity is expecting the best of each other. None of us need one more person bashing or pointing out where we have failed or fallen short. Most of us are already well aware of the areas in which we are weak. Bonnie D. Parkin: LDS.org - Ensign Article - Choosing Charity: That Good Part The story of Mary and Martha also illustrates how the gift of charity can be diminished. Within Martha’s request for assistance was an unspoken but clear judgment: “I am right; she is wrong.” Do we judge one another? Do we criticize each other for individual choices, thinking we know better, when in fact we rarely understand another’s unique circumstance or individual inspiration? Have we ever said, “She works outside the home.” Or, “Her son didn’t serve a mission.” Or, “She’s too old for a calling.” Or, “She can’t—she’s single.” Such judgments, and so many others like them, rob us of the good part, that pure love of Christ. We also lose sight of that good part when we compare ourselves to others. Her hair is cuter, my legs are fatter, her children are more talented, or her garden’s more productive—sisters, you know the drill. We just can’t do that. We cannot allow ourselves to feel inadequate by focusing on who we aren’t instead of on who we are! We are all sisters in Relief Society. We simply cannot criticize, gossip, or judge and keep the pure love of Christ. Can’t you hear the Lord’s sweet injunction: “Martha, Martha … ?” Elder Marvin J. Ashton beautifully observed: “Perhaps the greatest charity comes when we are kind to each other, when we don’t judge or categorize someone else, when we simply give each other the benefit of the doubt or remain quiet. Charity is accepting someone’s differences, weaknesses, and shortcomings; having patience with someone who has let us down; or resisting the impulse to become offended when someone doesn’t handle something the way we might have hoped. Charity is refusing to take advantage of another’s weakness and being willing to forgive someone who has hurt us. Charity is expecting the best of each other.” 14 In exercising charity, we come to know a sister’s heart. When we know a sister’s heart, we are different. We won’t judge her. We will simply love her. I invite you to not only love each other more but love each other better. As we do this we will come to know with a surety that “charity never faileth.” 15 N. Eldon Tanner: LDS.org - Ensign Article - “Judge Not, That Ye Be Not Judged†The reason, therefore, that we cannot judge is obvious. We cannot see what is in the heart. We do not know motives, although we impute motives to every action we see. They may be pure while we think they are improper. It is not possible to judge another fairly unless you know his desires, his faith, and his goals. Because of a different environment, unequal opportunity, and many other things, people are not in the same position. One may start at the top and the other at the bottom, and they may meet as they are going in opposite directions. Someone has said that it is not where you are but the direction in which you are going that counts; not how close you are to failure or success but which way you are headed. How can we, with all our weaknesses and frailties, dare to arrogate to ourselves the position of a judge? At best, man can judge only what he sees; he cannot judge the heart or the intention, or begin to judge the potential of his neighbor. When we try to judge people, which we should not do, we have a great tendency to look for and take pride in finding weaknesses and faults, such as vanity, dishonesty, immorality, and intrigue. As a result, we see only the worst side of those being judged.

This is the last I will say on this thread: 1) I am not comfortable with a blanket policy of "We must correct others when they are wrong." There are too many shades of "correct" and "wrong" for me to be comfortable with that blanket policy. 2) When people think of me, I want them to think of me as a non-judgmental person. Janice Out (at least on this thread)