Janice

I'm not sure why you are so insistent at picking a fight with me. Did I harm you in some other life? On For the Strength of Youth and True to the Faith , I believe I said I don't accept them as canonized scripture, which they are not. I view them as a great guide which we aught to seriously consider, and based on what they teach, I think we then aught to use our God given brains in conjunction with personal inspiration and come up with our own idea on how we live our lives. Janice

Guys and Gals, Despite my best efforts to communicate clearly, I'm obviously failing. Let me try and sum up my thoughts on this topic in one, precise statement: What I am NOT saying: It's okay to wear immodest clothing, and we don't need to teach our youth to dress modestly. What I AM saying: When we teach the principle of modesty, I feel it's important to teach ALL of modesty, and not just part of it. Proper clothing is part of modesty, and it NEEDS to be taught, but proper clothing is only one small part of modesty. The principle of modesty encompass so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so much more then just clothing, and when our kids understand ALL of modesty, then picking the right clothing will be a natural bi-product. My Concern: I fear that within our Victorian, conservative, Christian society, modesty has been reduced to being only about clothing. I fear that when we teach modesty, we only teach modest clothing. I fear that when we hyper-focus on modest clothing and ignore modest being we do our youth a great dis-service. My Hope: What I want very much to accomplish is to crack open the shell into which we seem to have stuffed modesty. I want us to remember that modesty is about more then the clothing we wear. When we teach modesty to your youth I would like to see us focus first and foremost on being modest, and to include the lessons on modest clothing as an important sub chapter of modesty, but not as the only element of modesty. Janice

Well said. My concern is that when we (as a Church) teach modesty, the only thing we teach is modest clothing, and we leave out modest being. I guess I would say that this, then, is a sad reflection on humanity. Of course we notice the clothing that people wear. It's impossible not to. Yet I think we aught to try very hard to look past the clothing and see the person. Janice

(deep sigh) I really feel like you have some sort of prejudice against me and that you are incapable of seeing what I'm really trying to say. I have never, ever, not once, not ever said that immodest clothing is appropriate. As kids in my class at school say: Duh! Once again Apple you have totally failed to grasp my point. I'm not going to say it again because it would not do any good. I'm not ad odds with anything the Prophets have said. Thank you, however, for your suggestion to pray. It's always a good one. Janice

A good lesson for everyone, myself included. Thanks Hordak.

Pam, from the very little I know about you, I'm not surprised the first thing you would notice about someone is their clothing. Janice

Well, I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree, Apple :) I prefer to teach my kids and my girls at church to be modest people first and foremost. It's been my experience that the clothing then falls into place on it's own. If and when a mild suggestion about clothing here or there is needed, then by all means offer it with love. But to put clothing on the same level as being... well, that just seems a little out of whack to me. Janice

It's a question of focus: Do you focus on the clothing? Or do you focus on the person? Is modesty a clothing-based principle? Or is it modesty a being-based principle? Which comes first? If you teach modest clothing, will whole-modesty then follow? Or if you teach whole-modesty, will modest clothing then follow?

Ah! I'm glad we agree!

Ok, with four posts in a row I am starting to talk to myself! There are, perhaps, two ways you can approach the subject of modesty: A: Your body is sacred, so cover up B: You are a sacred person. The way to honor and respect your divine heratige is by respecting yourself and respecting others. "Be grateful. Be smart. Be clean. Be true. Be humble. Be prayerful." In my mind, A is a shallow outside-in approach, while B is a more complete inside-out approach. When B is taught and learned, proper clothing is second nature. Sure, a few gentle clothing reminders and pointers may be needed along the way, but all they are is gentle reminders and pointers. Without exception, every young girl I have known who consistently dressed immodestly has much deeper issues then their choice in clothing... they have a serious problem loving themselves. The answer is NOT to give them a lesson on how to dress. The answer is to teach them to love and respect themselves, and the way to do this is to love and respect them, not to judge them and tell them to change their clothes. Change the mirror? Or change the person? Janice

Ok... I just read and re-read your question, Apple, trying to make sense out of it, and something occurred to me. Please tell me if I've got this all wrong: Wen you say, "why can't modesty and being a good person go hand-in-hand?", what you mean to say is, "why can't dressing modesty and being a good person go hand-in-hand?" Which leads me to believe that in your mind, modesty is defined by how one dresses; that clothing is the sum of modesty; that modesty equals modest clothing. I'm just trying to make sense of your question, Apple... please forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth. Help me understand. Janice

Wow, I am really confused. Did I ever say they couldn't? In fact, I think I've been trying to say this entire thread that modesty MEANS being a good person. Janice

I'd say that the problem here is that nobody taught them to BE modest. The clothing these girls choose to wear is only a symptom, and not the problem itself. Focus on the person. Janince

The clothing we wear reflects who we are. Looking at someone who dresses immodestly and thinking, "someone should teach that person to dress modestly" is like looking in the mirror and thinking, "I look fat... I should buy a new mirror." It's the person who needs to change, not the reflection. Children watch how we act, listen to what we say, and model our behavior long, long before they mimic the clothing we wear. My point: The person we are is more important then the clothing we wear. Start by teaching to be a good person. If and when clothing becomes an issue, then make a few minor adjustments, but chances are you won't ever need to. Janice

I was giving a talk in Sacrament meeting one Sunday when I had a terrible cold. That morning of I thought about calling in sick, but decided not to be that mean to the Bishopric. In the middle of my talk I was seized upon by one of those sneak attack sneezes that gives you absolutely no warning, or at least not enough to do anything about it. I showered the people on the front row, and the microphone and podium were splattered with green goo. Using a tissue someone handed me from behind, I wiped off the mike and podium, apologized to the people on the front row, gave an abbreviated version of the talk, and then left the building and went home. I did not wish to stick around to hear what wisecracks people might think of, or for the insincere "good talk!" comments. Janice

Dravin, Thanks for your post. I don't have time to respond in detail right now, but I'm on board with everything you've said. As you say, you could have two women walking down the street wearing hideously revealing clothing and walking in a suggestive manner, one a life long hooker, and the other life long molly mormon... and for all practical purposes, they are both equally immodest. My take is that molly mormon would never do such a thing in the first place. When teaching our kids the principle of modesty, don't start with modest clothing. Start with being a modest person. Janice

Splendid, Sensibility. Well said. Well said indeed.

Hi Darvin, Thanks for your input. Before I say anything else, I want to say first of all that I think you and I agree more then you think. Please know this: I am not advocating that people wear immodest clothing! Whenever this topic comes up, and whenever I express my point of view, people always seem to think that I am saying it's okay to wear immodest clothing. This is *not* what I am saying. Not all, not even close. I love modest clothing, and I love to see people (women, men, boys, girls) wearing modest clothing. If someone is walking around town (in most places in the world) naked I would expect they are mentally ill, but I see your point. Let's take a more realistic example... a real life example: There is a seventeen year old LDS teenage girl... she is sweet and innocent and pure and chaste. She attends seminary 100%, has her scripture mastery verses down pat, pays a full tithe on her $5.50 part time job, never dated or kissed or hardly even held hands until she was sixteen, watches all of Conference every six months and loves it, reads the New Era cover to cover ever month... you get the idea. It's not a show, it's genuine. You can see it in her eyes. This young girl has always wanted to be in a play but has always been to shy to try out. She hears that her high school is putting on Guys and Dolls, and after mustering courage for weeks, she tries out. She is elated beyond words when she lands not only just any small part, but the FEMALE LEAD!! Her friends congratulate her... people she does not even know congratulate her... she is in heaven, walking on a cloud! Then one day she comes home with all of the various costumes she is going to wear throughout the play so her mom can help her adjust them and do some alterations. One of the costumes, which she will wear for a dance line, is basically a one piece swim suit with an open back and fish neck stockings. The suit itself mildly pushes the limits of what some ultra conservative Mormons would call a "modest" one piece swim suit, but nothing that would really raise too many eyebrows if it were worn at a church pool or beach party. What, as this girls mother (or father) would you do? It just so happens that this girls mother is one of these ultra conservative Mormon mothers. She objected, very strongly, to her daughter wearing such a suit on stage, and combine it with the fish net stockings.... no daughter of hers was ever going to be seen on stage dressed as such a slut. Not only could her daughter not wear this outfit, but she could not be involved in any play that would ask young girls to wear such outfits while dancing on stage. The daughter pleaded, begged, cried. The dance itself was not immoral or immodest. It was a routine dance / kick line. The story was not immoral or immodest. It's a cute, fun story. No avail, the mother's mind was set. Her daughter would have no part of this play. It's my opinion that this mom way, way over reacted. Her daughter is a *good* girl... the poster child if there ever was one for LDS modesty, morality, chastity, and goodness. Being in this play would not, even one little whit, have unraveled her innate modesty. She is a modest girl, and wearing a swim suit with fishnet stockings on stage would not have made her even a little immodest. That's just my opinion, of course. I am fully aware that some people (like her mom) don't see eye to eye with me. It's been many years since this story happened, and this girl (my niece) is now a mother herself. Her beautiful children, like her, sparkle and radiate with happiness and goodness. Looking back on this incident she still views it as a dark stain on her otherwise happy relationship with her mother. The pain of such an incredible missed opportunity still lingers. This, and many many stories, incidents, and observations like it, is why I believe that a focus on the person is more important then a focus on the clothing. Wear modest clothing as an overall habit, Yes! Fill your wardrobe with modest clothing, Yes! Yes yes yes, I am on board with all of it. Apple and Connie and Pam quote "For the Strength of Youth" as if they are proving me wrong... I agree with everything it says!! All I am saying is this: PLEASE PLEASE look at the person and not what they are wearing. Look at the heart, and not the clothing. If the clothing is immodest, 1) do not judge, and 2) love. Teach a person to be a modest person, and let them make their own choices on what clothes to wear. They will choose the right. :) Janice

I suppose I would say that this person's heart has not changed, and what this person needs is more love, more understanding, and more patience. The temptation, of course, is to force such a person into outward compliance. "Oh YEAH!" We want to say out of frustration... "If you won't obey willingly, then I will FORCE you to obey!" I confess I have been guilty of this with my own kids. If, after asking them repeatedly to clean their room, it remains an unholy pigsty, I am tempted to drag them by the ear lobe, chuck them into their pig slop, scream, "AND DON'T COME OUT UNTIL IT'S CLEAN" and then bar the door shut from the outside. Doing this would bring a certain degree of temporary satisfaction, but of course would only make things worse in the long run. After I was married for a while my dad told me something about my mom that I never knew.... or had forgotten. When my older siblings were young my mom had been "a screamer" as my dad puts it. When things were not going right, she tended to raise her voice, scream, and shout. My dad confessed that he often wished he had a "MOM" remote control with a big giant "SHUT THE HELL UP!" button right in the middle of it, and when mom would get in one of these moods, he could just push that button and make it all go away. But, he told me, the real solution came in increasing his love towards her when she got in these moods. Hugs went a long ways. Us kids, he told us, were great at picking up on these queues and doing like wise. It did not happen overnight, but eventually, mom was no longer "a screamer". When my kids rooms remain a mess after being asked repeatedly to clean it up, my preferred solution is to crank the volume on one of the High School Musical sound tracks, go into their rooms with them, and then clean their rooms with them while dancing and laughing and having a great time. And, when my oldest daughter asked the inevitable question, "What kind of swim suit should I buy", my preferred answer was, "I honestly don't care. I know you are a modest girl and that the suit you choose will reflect that." -- I have no idea if I addressed your question or not, Just_a_Guy. I sorta went off on my own little tangent. What would I say about such a person? I would say, "love them to death, and do not try to change their behavior!" Janice

If you have to ask if a swimsuit is appropriate, you must not understand what "appropriate" is. Focus on the person, not the clothing. Janice

Indeed. Thus, if the clothing is not appropriate, the problem is not the clothing.

Why are you sorry? No need for that! I very much agree, as I think we all do. Naturally being modest in thought or attitude and dressing inappropriately do not go hand in hand! I may be being prideful in making this assumption, but if you've made this statement in reply to something I've said, then I think perhaps I have not made my case clearly enough. True. But perhaps also consider this: You can take an immodest person and dress them in modest clothing, they may behave modestly for an evening or so, but it has not changed who they are in their hearts. I read a story a long while ago about a professional football team that was having trouble with complaints from the airlines that transported them and the hotels where they stayed. The players kept making passes at female employees and worse... groping and fondling them and making terribly rude comments. Threats, sanctions, and punishment did very little to encourage them to stop. Someone suggested that the players be given a dress code when they travel: full three piece suit, dress shirt and tie. The code was enforced, and behavior improved. Instead of acting like animals they acted like professional businessmen, which is how they were dressed. The story was told as a case study of how dress can change behavior. But when I heard it I wondered then, and I still wonder now... how many of the players actually changed in their hearts? When they were out of their suits and ties, did they revert back to being animals? Absolutely! Once again, I hope nobody is advocating dressing like a slut!!! But, in the case where someone does dress this way, the problem is not the choice in clothing, and simply forcing (or asking) the person to put on different clothing is like putting a band aid on a cancerous tumor and then congratulating yourself for having cured the visible symptoms. When someone chooses to dress like a slut, the problem is not with the clothing, but with the person him/her self. This person needs to be deeply loved, to understand their own self worth, to see themselves as God sees them. When this change of heart takes place, the proper clothing will follow. Perhaps Ezra Taft Benson said it better then I can: “The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.” So, Pam, when you say: "If you dress modestly you are more apt to act modestly", I say this is a true statement, but would it not be better to look at modesty this way?: When people are modest in their hearts, they will choose to dress modestly. Focus first on the person, and let the choice in clothing follow. Janice

I wholeheartedly agree! I certainly hope nobody thought anyone here was saying otherwise. Here's my only point: Clothing does not make a person modest or immodest. Too often when we teach modesty I think perhaps we teach it from the outside in: If you wear modest clothing, you will be a modest person. I prefer to teach it from the inside out: If you are a modest person, then the clothing will follow. I know I am drawing conclusions from a very small sample pool, but it has been my (limited) experience that parents who clamp down and impose heavy rules on the type of clothing their daughters wear and who can be heard publicly declaring things like "NO DAUGHTER OF MINE WILL EVER OWN A BIKINI!" are the same parents who end up becoming grandparents before their own children are married. With the very best of intentions, they taught and enforced the principle of modest clothing thinking that true modesty would then follow. But, in fact, they failed to actually teach modesty. Janice

Oh my! I had no idea! That seems like an awful amount of work just to take a dip at the beach. I think I would have just skipped it all together! I honestly don't know how anyone can say that modesty does not change over time. The BYU dress code alone is a good standard. When my parents went to school there, boys were required to wear dress pants, a shirt and tie, and girls were required to wear full length dresses. Anything less was not modest. When I was a student there, both boys and girls could wear t-shirts and shorts to class. I am amazed at how hard this concept is to grasp: True Modesty has very little to do with clothing, and much more to do with what kind of person you are. Clothing is *part* of modesty, but not the only part and not even the main part. And even then, the concept of not showing too much skin is only a small part of proper clothing. Good manners, please and thank you, humility, not boasting or bragging, not showing off, not seeking to always be the center of attention, clothing that does not draw attention to itself by being dirty and wrinkly, clothing that does not draw attention to itself by being gaudy and excessively expensive (dripping with jewelry on every ear and finger), and yes, clothing that does not draw attention to itself by flaunting and showing off our bodies. Do you live in a modest home? Do you drive a modest car? Do you live a modest life style? Do you manage your money modestly? Is your speech modest? Do you tell modest jokes? Is your behavior modest? It's my opinion that we have done ourselves a great dis-service by allowing revealing clothing to become the focal point of modesty. It puts the focus on the cheap, the outside, the superficial. It takes the focus away from the inner, the true self, the heart, the soul. Modesty begins with who you are on the inside, and works its way out. Not the other way around. When we begin modesty with "what kind of swim suit should my daughter wear?" and "should my boys be allowed to walk around the house with no shirt on?" I fear we are missing the point of modesty all together. If someone IS a truely, deeply modest person in their hearts, then these kinds of issues are simply non-issues. Ok. Soap box over. Janice

The following is my opinion and my opinion only. I am not stating it as a universal fact to which I think you all should also subscribe. It's just my opinion: The idea that men and boys should not be topless unless actually in the water is not modesty, it's prudishness. (only my opinion!) In my mind, it promotes the idea that there is something wrong with our bodies, and that they are somehow shameful. Story..... ____________________________________________________ My husband grew up in home that subscribed to these kinds of strict ideas on clothing... being seeing without a shirt on would result in his mom saying sternly, "get back in your bedroom and don't come out naked again!". Ie: having no shirt on was naked. Once, about the age of eleven or so, he got out of the shower only to realize he had left his clean towel and clothes in his bedroom. It's funny to hear him tell the story. When he realized he had no towel and no clothes (his old clothes had been sent down the laundry chute), he panicked. The idea of making a break for his bedroom in the buff filled his heart with dread... even though it was at most eight or nine steps away. He considered all options... thought about shouting for someone to bring him a towel or some clothes, but knew this would bring teasing and abuse from his siblings, or a look of reproach from his mom for being forgetful... something for which she often chided him. He thought it better to risk the couple of yards to his bedroom and hopefully nobody would ever be the wiser. So, he cracked open the door, and hiding his naked body behind it, he eyed the empty hallway, and thinking the coast was clear, he mustered up all the courage he could find, flung open the door, and did a mad blind dash for the safety of his bedroom. Unfortunately, to get to his bedroom he had to run past his older sister's bedroom, and she happened to be in it. She got a fleeting glimpse, a blur really, of him running past, saw that he was naked, and went into fits of hysteria. In my hubby's words, he got a proper scream-scolding from his mother, and then a solemn, grave discussion from his dad when he got home and his mother told him "what his son had done." His offense, it seems, was three fold: 1) he had forgotten his towel and clean clothes, 2) he had been naked, and 3) he had let his sister see him naked, which caused her much undo stress and anxiety. ____________________________________________________ I won't go into overly personal details, but my husband struggled mightily with body issues as a teen. Use your imagination. He managed to stay a virgin until our honeymoon, but just barely. And his mission was delayed six months while he overcame his "solo" habit. He will fully admit that if the internet had existed when he was a kid and porn was as accessible as it is today, he fears he would have been lost to it. (by the way, I am saying all of this with his permission.) It is my opinion that an overly strict "modesty" code in the home will often backfire and have the opposite effect parents want it to, and their children will grow up not respecting the human body, but fearing it and viewing it as something mysterious and strange. When parents teach principles like humility, chastity, *true* modesty (not just clothing-focused modesty), good manners, respect, etc... When these principles are taught, the need to enforce clothing rules ceases to exist, as they are simply become second nature. Janice P.S. Again, this is only my opinion, and I respect the rights of others to have their own opinions on how to raise kids.