prisonchaplain

I appreciate this straightforward answer. Until Vatican II, the Roman Catholic Church proclaimed similar beliefs. Their stance has softened considerably, but I do recognize that the LDS is not the first Church to proclaim itself a sole holder of keys. Again, a direct, yet positive answer. Thank you. And this is where consternation and misunderstanding brew between LDS and the rest of us. IMHO all true Christians will enter God's best heavenly kingdom. And a non-true Christian is simply not a Christian. So, doing away with the adjectives, whatever a Christian is--it is someone who will indeed spend forever in the presence of the Heavenly Father, because of faith in his Son Jesus (the Christ). My point: If the definition you are using above "believes Jesus = Son of God who died to save sinners" is NOT enough to get one into the eternal presence of the Heavenly Father, then it's a misleading definition. Far better to just frankly say that a Christian is one who: (1) Have a mighty change of heart (change in thoughts and desires); (2) Faith and repentance; (3) Baptism by immersion; (4) Receipt of the Holy Ghost; (5) For men, receive Melchizedek Priesthood; (6) For men and women, receive temple initiatory and endowment; (7) For those who marry, be married eternally in the temple; (8) Keep covenants, endure to the end (serve where called, love others). Granted, it may not be quite as nice. However, such an approach is more honest, clear, and can be mitigated sufficiently to take the edge off. For example, "My dear evangelical friend, yes yes, of course we share a common Christian heritage. However, along the way, the churches went astray, and lost key truths and practices. God has restored those practices in our church, and we encourage you to come and taste--and see that His gospel is good." Maybe I should have gone into advertising? Message to all: This particular string has really clarified some LDS teachings for me. Many thanks to all who've contributed. I am getting to the point where the primary text will need to be tackled.

At this point I'm trying to get the bottom line (how American of me, I know!). Ben is saying that so many in the Celestial Kingdom will be those who were not LDS in their earthly lifetimes (assuming they did not have an opportunity to hear). The key--and this is the big "We're not harsh here--we work hard so all have a chance"--is that those who are have died, and receive the baptism for the dead, will be able to embrace "the gospel," and enter the Celestial Kingdom. Another clarification: "The Gospel" is not ADMIT, BELIEVE, CONFESS (Jesus). It is the LDS Restoration: (1) Have a mighty change of heart (change in thoughts and desires); (2) Faith and repentance; (3) Baptism by immersion; (4) Receipt of the Holy Ghost; (5) For men, receive Melchizedek Priesthood; (6) For men and women, receive temple initiatory and endowment; (7) For those who marry, be married eternally in the temple; (8) Keep covenants, endure to the end (serve where called, love others). If so, is it at least fair to say, in the end, Mormon soteriology (salvation teaching) is very sacramental (in the same manner as Catholics, who teach that salvation is communicated and received via the sacraments)? As for who has heard and understood, the whole issue is mostly speculative in all Christian communities, imho. My bottom-line--and my guess is that most LDS would agree--is that God is just, and nobody will question his judgments.

This is beautiful in its simplicity. Live testimonies, where we are able to hear more of the heart, and the personal nature of one's spiritual awakening to the reality of God's love are so encouraging and faith-building. I notice to the very personal nature of the poster's relationship to God (note my boldfacing of key phrases). And yet...I'm reading from others about picking the right church, the right leaders to pray over me, the right people to perform rituals over me, etc. A struggle many "low church" Protestants have with the Catholic Church is that the sacramental system seems to put ceremonies and human leaders as mediators between me and my God. Jesus says he's the only mediator. My hope is not to persuade or criticize, but to explain why it is that evangelicals in particular run into spiritual culture shock by some of the teachings of the LDS church. Hopefully if we understand each other better we can talk to each other with ever increasing wisdom.

I guess my question would be "why?" Is there a doctrinal test for entry into the Celestial Kingdom? Is the formula of Admit I'm a Sinner, Believe Jesus, Confess my sins, and, of course, subsequent to conversion, enduring to the end, not sufficient? Is there really only one organization that serves as gatekeeper to the highest heaven? We've hinted around about these issues, but not in this context. So, no--I've never seen a clearly dilineated list of the minimum requirements for entry into the Celestial Kingdom. Ironically, this list looks similar to a list of sacraments the Catholic Church has. The difference is, if I'm not mistaken, Catholics say that non-Catholic Christians may also enter heaven. If I see this list correctly, it will be nearly impossible for non-LDS Christians who've had exposure to the beliefs to enter the Celestial Kingdom, short of conversion to the Church. Bottom-line: Oldtimer (an LDS teacher who posts at hannity.com re: Mormonism) tells me Mormons essentially only view the Celestial Kingdom as truly heaven, since only there does the Heavenly Father reside. If so, are LDS, on the one hand complaining that other Christians falsely accuse them of not being part of the family, and on the other hand saying that all non-LDS Christians really don't belong in the family. In otherwords "Us too--and not you."

I am reformatting MrsS' post, so the questions are enumerated. Also, if I'm understanding correctly, the questions also represent prerequisites for entry into the Celestial Kingdom. Just to be clear, today, those priesthood key holders, those Priesthood holders, the location and grantor of Endowments, those who perform the sealings, and those who control our Lord's dedicated temples--all of these can only be found with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Furthermore, according to an LDS poster at another forum (hannity.com, Re: Mormonism), true heaven to LDS is the Celestial Kingdom. So, basically, entry into heaven requires active, obedient membership in the LDS Church. Yes, I know--others can get into the other heavenly kingdoms. However, the presence of the Heavenly Father is not in those. Active Mormons would not seek to get into those. Again, true heaven would be the Celestial Kingdom. If so, this is the bottom-line reason non-LDS Christians struggle so with your church. You say, "Hey, we're Christians too." Then, we get the bottom line: In this age, unless you've got some powerful mitigating circumstances, our church is the only sure way into that heavenly kingdom in which the presence of the Father resides. Those other two kingdoms might be "glorious," but the Heavenly Father's presence is not there, and active Mormons would not aim to enter them.

Quite often I'm challenged by LDS with the question: What do you think I have to do to be 'saved'? My answer--the answer most evangelicals see in the Bible--Admit you're a sinner, Believe in Jesus, Confess your sins. Inevitably, the response is, "Well, I've done all that, so I'm good to go, according to you, right?" And, indeed, Barna Polling recently came out with the surprising statistic that 44% of LDS, when asked a series of theological questions, would indeed fit the evangelical definition of being "born again." (What's up with the other 56% ). So, now let's go at the question in reverse. Here's my situation: 1. I've done the ABCs. 2. Although my faith group does not believe water baptism is a prerequisite of salvation, I have indeed received this ordinance, by full immersion. 3. I've received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the laying on of hands. 4. For the sake of this discussion, assume I'm sincere in all these things, and that I am in an on-going relationship with the Master, including regular prayer, Bible study, church fellowship, full-tithe support, donations for missions projects, and that I respond positively and eagerly to any calls I receive from my church. 5. For the sake of discussion, let's assume I stay true, and 'endure to the end,' in my testimony, faith and practice. So--am I good to go? Will I likely gain entrance into the Celestial Kingdom?

I've not attempted to edit this post for and LDS audience. I simply post this very typical lesson to see what points of affirmation, contradiction, inquiry and discussion it might bring out. Who is the Holy Spirit and What Does He Do? Proposition: We believe that the Holy Spirit is personality, deity, the performer of the New Birth, the indweller of believers, and the one who enables holiness in us. Interrogative: How do we know these things about the Holy Spirit, where would be without Him, and why is this so important. First, let us consider who we are working with. Who is the Holy Spirit? We believe in the personality of the Holy Spirit. He is a person, with individuality all his own. (2 Corinthians 3:17) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (NIV). A power or force is more likely to oppress, constrain, limit...but the Holy Spirit releases, frees, liberates! (1 Peter 1:2) who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance. (NIV). The distinct work of the Holy Spirit here is sanctification--He works holiness into our lives! He has characteristics of personhood. (Romans 8:27) And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. (NIV). Note the mind of the Spirit--The Holy spirit thinks. (Romans 15:30) I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. (NIV) Note the love of the Spirit--He feels. (1 Corinthians 12:11) All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. (NIV) The Holy Spirit determines, or wills. We believe in the deity of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 5:3-4) Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." (NIV) They lie to the Holy Spirit. They lie to God. The Holy Spirit is God. Some questions to ponder. Can a power or force really be lied to? If the Holy Spirit is not God, what is he? An angel? A god-like thing? It is good to know who the Holy Spirit is, but what does he do? What does the Holy Spirit do? We believe the Holy Spirit performs the miracle of the new birth in those becoming Christians. (John 16:7-8) But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: (NIV). The Holy Spirit Convicts people of sin--making them feel guilty. We must understand our need for God's forgiveness before we can become Christians. Note that it is not our place to make people feel conviction--that's the Spirit's work. We simply inform them that we are all guilty before God. (John 3:3-6) In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. (NIV) The new birth--being born again--salvation--comes from the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13) For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free-- and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. (NIV). The Holy Spirit puts us into the body of Christ--making us a part of the family of God. We believe the Holy Spirit indwells believers. (Romans 8:9) You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. (NIV). Catch this--the Spirit of God lives in you! Are you really comfortable taking the Holy Spirit to some of the places you go, to say the things you say, and do the things you do? (1 Corinthians 6:19) Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; (NIV). We are a holy place where the Holy Spirit of God lives! We believe the Holy Spirit enables believers to live godly lives. (Romans 8:4) in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. (NIV). God's law is fulfilled in us by the Holy Spirit. (Galatians 5:16-17) So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. (NIV). If we live by the Spirit in us, we will not fall to sinful temptations. (2 Thessalonians 2:13) But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. (NIV) The Holy Spirit helps us live clean lives before the God. If the Holy Spirit is so important, how come we do not hear more about Him? Just how bad would it be if we did not have the Spirit--just Jesus and the Father? Where would we be without the Holy Spirit? (Genesis 1:2) Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. (Job 33:4) The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life. (NIV) No creation. No universe. No human race. (2 Peter 1:21) For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (NIV). Without the Holy Spirit there would be no prophecy. There would be no proclamation of God's Word. (Acts 1:8) But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." (NIV) Without the Holy Spirit there would be no power. There would be no witness and no hope for a lost and dying world. Okay, okay! So I believe in the Holy Spirit. Is it necessary to have a detailed understanding of him? Why is the doctrine of the Holy Spirit so important? We must understand the Holy Spirit to understand the God we worship. It is a common error for we Christians to regard the Holy Spirit as a power or force, instead of as a person. This leads to a lack of respect. This leads to a lack of intimacy. This leads to our efforts to control the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is with us all the time. We think of Jesus as being one person at one place at a time. The Holy Spirit is at all places at all times. Jesus said to his disciples as he was about to leave them that it was good for him to go, so that the Holy Spirit could come. Life apart from the Holy Spirit compares poorly to life with the Holy Spirit. Life without out the Holy Spirit is like this: (Galatians 5:19-21) The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (NIV) Life with the Holy Spirit is like this: (Galatians 5:22-23) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (NIV) WOW! We've learned a lot, but what have we learned? What shall we do? Conclusions 1. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to save us from our sins. 2. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to use us when we witness. 3. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to lead us away from sin. 4. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to help us love God and our neighbors. 5. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to make us wiser when we read and study the Bible. 6. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to be with us all the time.

Keep in mind that non-LDs only believe in the heavenly kingdom. I go with the Apostle Paul on this one: 2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.(KJV) And as for the hope that there's still opportunity for conversion after death, I go with the writer of Hebrews: Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:(KJV) Understanding these beliefs, whether you agree or not, you might better understand the consternation of non-LDS Christians with the belief that there was 1700+ years of apostasy.

Two key issues: 1. Entry into the Celestial Kingdom is at least partly dependent on someone post-mortem finding my information, and performing the ceremony. If my name doesn't get found, I'm out of the Celestial Kingdom. 2. Many Christians, myself included, do not agree that their are any ritualistic requirements attached to salvation. Water baptism is a testimony to the salvation I have experienced. The fulfillment of righteousness took place at Calvary. Same goes for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost--it's a gift--one that we Pentecostals believe is subsequent to salvation. The hierarchical nature of your doctrine in these areas, and the strong emphasis on office and authority explains much about the doctrinal and behavioral discipline within the LDS Church. So, if nothing else, the teachings do have practical benefits. :) To fine tune what you've said: How would you compare the age of apostasy in the Christian church with typical periods of degeneration in Israel (under wicked kings, during times of prolific syncretism with surrounding Pagans)? So, there it is. Are you essentially saying that the COJCLDS is the Third Covenenant (Old, New, LDS?) God has offered to his people? Or, perhaps, the restitution of the lost second one? My sense is that Jesus was moving us away from dependence on organizations and man-made systems of worship and ritual, and towards direct relationship with God, and then with the people of God. So, in a sense, this restored gospel almost sounds like a return to the older system.

But what does it mean that they were saved? Were they consigned to the Terrestial Kingdom, forever to miss out on the presence of the Heavenly Father? And, who were "such men?" Just the heroes, those very few who did extraordinary things to further God's plan. Ray, your answer to this question may clarify this whole issue of the general apostasy: During the period of the apostasy, from roughly 100 - 1840 AD, was it possible for those who believed in Christ sincerely, based on what knowledge they had, to DIRECTLY gain entry into the Celestial Kingdom (i.e., meaning that they did not have to depend on someone in doing a specific water baptism in their name after the Restoration)?

Was it possible or likely for the Christian believers who lived during the age of the apostasy to gain entry into the Celestial Kingdom? If it was very difficult to near impossible, due to the supposed removal of ordinances and offices, then the effect is the same. Satan did prevail against God's church, if he systematically kept willing-but-ill-equiped believers from entering a kingdom of eternal reconciliation with the Father. The LDS church places heavy emphasis on church offices--much more than I can find in my Bible. So, the question you have, of course has no answer--it is an "LDS question." We do not find that the 12 apostles were meant to maintain and pass on their offices to the exact number. In Paul's second letter to the Corinthians he seems to imply that there were already new apostles (more than 12--and that his own apostleship was being challenged). Furthermore, the very definition of apostle included that the person had physically seen and been with Christ, so it couldn't be passed on--though leadership could be. A discussion on church government could get quite lengthy and detailed, but the bottom line issue most Christians have with the Restored Gospel teaching is the implication that God's church was invalid for 1800 years, and the faithful are more or less distanced from their God. It sure sounds like Satan prevailing against Christ's church. If the absence of ordinances and offices kept willing but ill-equiped believers from full reconciliation with God, the effect is the same. BTW, I did not mean to imply that you, or any individual LDS poster was being disrespectful or antagonistic to non-LDS Christians. I am a bit surprised that many LDS do not understand why we find the Restored Gospel teaching itself to be 'hard to take.' The common understanding amongst us is that the doctrine teaches that Joseph Smith's revelations restored and provided the primary pathway to the Celestial Kingdom. Again, if that pathway was nearly blocked for 1800 years, how can it not be said that Satan prevailed against the Church? Wait. Within a generation of Christ's incarnation the offices are gone? After a 400 year wait between the last prophet and Jesus, we have a total loss within one generation? That's not very gradual. Likewise, if the pathway to the Celestial kingdom remained more or less blocked until Joseph Smith, the precursory lights were meaningless to those who perished without the light. Let me say again, that neither you, nor any other posters have been personally confrontational, aggressive, or disrespectful. Non-LDS struggle with this doctrine. What I tried to explain to you is that even Pentecostals were criticized for claiming to have more of the Holy Ghost than other Christians. Would you not to expect exponentially more criticism for claiming to have the only true church government, leaders, and pathway to the Celestial Kingdom? It's not cause your mean. It's the message: being Christian itself is not good enough--you must join with our sect, come under our leadership and authority, etc. if you want to enter God's best kingdom. For all the confusion and strife you claim to see in the Christian world, with its many denominations, most of us get along quite well. We might believe our understandings of God and his Word are best, but we call one another brothers. We learn from each other. And, quite frankly, on most Sunday mornings these days, it would probably be difficult to tell an Assemblies of God from Baptist from a Methodist from an Evangelical Free church, based upon the service alone. We sing many of the same songs, read the same books, listen to the same radio stations--and quite often go to the same religious confereneces (i.e. Promise Keepers). The days of denominational flagwaving are long gone. We get blamed for saying Jesus is the only way. But, the Restored Gospel seems to say to us: Jesus + our Church, our leaders, our authority, our ordinances etc. So, it's not personal. We struggle with the message, not the messengers. B) I'm a bit confused here. Ray, are you saying that the LDS believe the JST of the Bible is inspired of God, in the same manner the original writers were inspired? If so, why does the church authorize the KJV rather than the JST?

Yes, of course Israel fell into sin repeatedly. BUT, and this is big--there was always a remnent of godly people who kept the Law, and continued to serve God. The access to God was never cut off. To say that the Apostasy of roughly 100 - 1800 AD is the same, because a few people still tried and had good hearts, even though they could not fully access God, because no one worthy of the church offices existed is just wrong. It sounds like saying, well there weren't any full Christians, but there were always a few wannabes. Frankly, I can relate to this issue pretty well. Pentecostals do believe that, for the most part, many of the experiential gifts of the Holy Spirit were lost. A few monks or devout souls experienced tongues etc. throughout church history, but it was not common to the churches from roughly 100 - 1900 AD. BUT, never did we argue that, therefore, the church was basically in limbo during that time. You may tire of hearing that the Restored Gospel has the sound of God failing to empower his church to prevail, but to those of us on the supposedly unrestored side of the Kingdom, that is how it sounds.

A lot of people find Ray's approach to dialogue troubling, and the bold-faced section tells why. On the other hand, Ray comes from an evangelical background--one that is quite conservative. So, his approach resonates with me on one score: He believes the LDS gospel is for everyone, and is unashamed about aggressively pressing his cause. The claims of Joseph Smith, in the end, are either true or false, right or wrong, supremely blessed or wickedly deceiving. In the end there is no middle ground. Ray's approach might not be the style of those raised in the LDS Church, but I, quite frankly, find it refreshingly direct. Maureen, of course, you're right that not every non-LDS person comes here as an almost-converted investigator, waiting to be ushered in. I've stated several times that I come to share and learn. I'm mature enough to receive Ray's invitations to study, learn, believe, just as I am mature enough to issue my own such invitations in the right context. So, let the dialogue continue! BTW, why was it again that hell has to be eternal?

It is one thing to contend that individuals, and perhaps even whole congregations might give themselves over to apostasy. However, the entire Christian world? The whole church...not one that stays true? Jesus said the gates of hell would never prevail against his church. And the grand span of the biblical account is one of a remnant of believers prevailing until conviction and repentence comes to the House of God. No, the belief in free will (or free agency) does not extend to a belief that the whole of creation would embrace apostasy for 1700+ years. I would argue that Christ is the rock, the foundation, upon which his church is built. Peter's confession was that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God--and it is upon this confession--this rock--that Christ builds his church. It wasn't about Peter, or the disciples, or who would be greatest in the Kingdom--it has always been about Jesus.

Hey...let this post wander...what made the Work and Glory movies so much better. I haven't seen them, but will check if Netflix has them available. I thought the music was acceptable. The used what seemed to be a good-sized ochestra. My sense is they were trying to create an "epic" feel--so went with big-sounding music. BTW--I got this from Netflix, so it might be worth a try. My sense is the movie was probably a bit better than your low expectations.

First, in general, I'd like to thank ApostleKnight, Ray, and Maureen--and others who've been following this thread. I've averaged about 40-minutes per post, and I'm guessing the others must be spending similar amounts of time. Overall, we've been engaging in intelligent and respectful conversation here of a strong calliber. So kudos to everyone. I'll come back to AK's overall post, but wanted to address this singular point. I do not recall mentioning salvation in this string, though I did reference "core beliefs." A while back SNOW challenged me in a similar fashion, more or less asking if there's a doctrinal test to salvation, and why so many evangelicals seem so eager to damn LDS to hell over doctrinal disagreements (my words, not theirs)? 1st. No, there's no doctrinal test for conversion. In fact, most evangelicals reject seeing water baptism as a prerequisite to salvation, for this very reason. It is not by works of righteousness (including learning teachings) that I have done, but according to His mercy He has saved me. Bottom-line: The thief on the cross surely had not learned the 16 Fundamentals of the Assemblies of God. 2nd. Upon conversion, one begins to walk with God. The Holy Spirit becomes a companion. So, if the new believer (or mature believer for that matter) were to begin moving towards heterodox teachings--false doctrines--the Holy Spirit would 'check' his/her spirit. Apprehension, a sense of God's "No" would be heard. If the believer continues in the direction of heresy, the Spirit of God would bring warnings. However, God never forces himself. Eventually the believer might give him/herself over to the false religious system, and become, what LDS refer to as apostate. Is the apostate saved? Having said that, it is not my place to judge who is damned or not. However, it would not surprise me if Christian believers with sincere motives, might offer 'harsh' warnings to those they believe have wandered into dangerous theological pathways. So, yes, we must endure to the end: with our actions AND our beliefs.

Hold the bus! Ray, you know I wasn't saying that. That's your view, not mine. What I said was that if the essence of God is in us, we are what He is. 1. I agree that we were literally created by God. 2. I disagree that we have the essence of God in our makeup. 3. We may become like God at exaltation, but we shall never be what He is. 4. I think you know that most evangelicals disagree with Darwinian macroevolution, which says that beings evolve from lower to higher species. Microevolution, yes. Species do adapt. But, they do not completely change. Ironically, the idea of humans becoming God may indeed fit the macroevolutionary paradigm. Ray, let's use clear language here. It did not surprise you, who had been raised in the Church of Christ, to hear that LDS believe that our spirits are eternal, and that we are supposed to be in the process of becoming God? It did not cause you to stop, ponder, consider, pray, "tarry" etc. The truth of it just came to you in stride? I can understand that you came to an assurance, but you imply that the teachings were almost naturally grasped...that there was no "Wow! Really?" Actually, Maureen's post clarified that in the Colossians passage, the term "firstborn" is best understood as relating to preminence, not chronological birth order. The whole thing about "restored gospel" is the implication that the teachings are a returning to the original truths. It's a tough sell to explain how God's truths got lost, and the alleged apostasy prevailed for nearly 3000 years. Yes, God can work that way--but I recall Dr. T's question about whether God would really allow the gates of hell to prevail against his church--especially for "a VERY LONG time."

I haven't completed the book yet, but I did see the movie, and was reasonably impressed. See my full report at the following: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002C3P0...glance&n=404272 Feel free to leave your + or - vote. :) Also, this might be a good place to talk about the movie, and about the use of film as a means of proclaiming the message.

Because if God truly bore us, or physically infused us with his essence, then we are what he is--unless you suggest we're a lesser hybrid, and I doubt either of us want to go there. The bottom-line struggle evangelicals have with the LDS view of God and humanity, is the line gets blurred. If God was once a finite man, then He's not eternal, as we have believed (at least not as we have defined eternal). If humanity has God's essence, then we are akin to God. Yes you say we still worship the Father, and always will. But, the line of differentiation between us and Him is greatly diminished, and even fuzzied. Perhaps some LDS who converted from a robust practice of non-LDS Christianity can explain to you just how serious of a paradigm shift this is for us. Recall my surprise, AK, when you first explained that human spirits have no beginning? These distinctions are rather dramatic, and do effect our core metaphysical understandings. The distinction you make allows you to say Jesus was uniquely begotten, and yet hold that we are begotten of God as well. However, whether physical or spiritual, to say we have the physical essence of God within our composition (even within our spirits), is to elevate humanity far beyond traditional Christian understanding, and to, again, greatly reduce the chasm that separate us and him, in terms of what we actually are. The Hebrew understanding of firstborn is preeminent. Jacob won the rights of the firstborn, Ephraim was chosen over the older Mannessah, etc. Especially in the context of 1 Colossians 1, where Jesus is called the firstborn over all creation, the contextual meaning is majesty, not that Jesus is essentially a lesser being than God--one physically created by Him. I guess you've confirmed the evangelical concern that ultimately the LDS God looks a lot like us, and we like Him, but since He started his spiritual evolution before we did, He gets to be God. This is strikingly different from the traditional Christian understanding that the God who has no beginning, no end, and is unchanging, created us at the creation, as humans, the highest of his earthly creation, so that he might enjoy us, and we him--and that our rebellion led to the Fall, and the ultimate need of a Redeemer, who would reconcile us to the Father, and restore our right relationship for all eternity. At this point I think I get the teaching. I just wonder how many LDS understand just how dramatically different these teachings are from that offered in non-LDS churches.

PC SAYS: Acts 17: 28 poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Paul is addressing a group of intellectuals and explaining that just as they have known that we are the offspring (i.e. creation) of God, he is now going to tell them who that God is and how they can be reconciled to Him. That we are called offspring would not be meant to contradict John 3:16, in which Jesus is called the ONLY begotten of God. Yes, I did add the clarifying term in parenthesis--not as a slight of hand--but, well, as a clarification. I'll break this down as I see it: 1. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (KJV). This also gets translated "the one and only Son of God." (NIV) Regardless, there is a uniqueness to Jesus' relationship with God--one we do not share. 2. We are sons of God. We were created by Him. Of this there is not doubt (revisit Gen. 1 & 2). 3. So, my clarification is that we, as God's offspring, are the creation of God, the sons of daughters of his creative power, not the begotten children of God--that belongs to Jesus "the only begotten Son of God." He's the Father of our Spirits, and yes He is the Father of our physical bodies--by creation, not biology. God is God and we are man. One species does not give birth to a different species. Really? It's always been understood that way by nearly every tradition with the Christian world.

Yes, Ray, I do. I sought God's direction as I went through the verses, and just looked at them in their context. Like me, no other Bible scholars outside of the LDS tradition (that I'm aware of) have taken those passages, and put them together to suggest that human spirits are existed eternally in premortality. Is it "at least possible" that Joseph Smith stumbled upon a hidden truth? "All things are possible." However, outside of an assurance about Joseph Smith and his revelations, the LDS interpretation does not seem plausible. Professor Robinson (BYU) is generally quite frank about admitting than many LDS distinctives cannot be strongly supported, if only relying on biblical texts. His normal recourse, when engaging evangelicals, is to counter that we cannot prove the LDS interpretation is impossible or clearly contradictory to the Holy Bible. So, as I suggested, if you presuppose Mormon doctrine, the passages could lend understanding to that interpretation. But, without the presupposition, they would not likely lead a nuetral reader conclude that humans have an eternal premortal existence.

Ray, if you've read me carefully, you understand that there definitely is an assurance that comes with salvation. BUT, that assurance is preceeded by a sense of conviction--guilt. Yeah, good old-fashioned guilt. We realize we are sinners, and we sense that God is real. We call out for mercy, relying on the shed blood of Christ Jesus, his Son. We say yes to God's offer of love, and then the ASSURANCE comes. Now that the Spirit of God resides with me, I read the Bible and know it's true. God reveals his truths to me as I read it. I discern truths unredeemed biblical scholars never will. But, we do not have to pray for an assurance every time we approach the Bible, or learn a new truths. The "yes" and "no" of the Spirit become a natural part of my on-going conversation with God. Some things we "tarry" or wait for--most things God reveals quite readily, with requiring a Q & A session. Ray, maybe you're a unique individual. But, I really doubt, for example, that most believers--whether LDS or not, needed to sit down before starting each new biblical book and praying, "Now God, can I trust this one? Is Genesis yours? Okay, Lord. I'm on Exodus now--what about it?" Once you'd received salvation, and embraced the overarching truth of Christ, the rest probably came quite easily. We have free will, or agency. BUT, the most powerful evangelistic tool available to us is the direct proclammation of the Word of God. That's why most evangelical 'witnessing' literature is packed with Bible verses. We're not in confusion, Ray. We're in love with each other. We fellowship with one another. Do we have perfect unity, even over the minute details. Well, I'd say we're at least as united as are the LDS posters at this site. Seriously, we see through the glass that is not yet clear. (1 Cor. 13). When Jesus comes, we shall see clearly, fully--and enjoy the natural unity you desire. Human organization can force compliance, but not heart unity. Jesus isn't back yet, okay? Even the New Testament church had disagreements. Paul and Barnabus parted ways, and there was quite a tiff over for a season. The Corinthians did not know they were suppose to expel the member who was having an illicit affair with his stepmother. I'm sorry church can't be neat and Leave it to Beaver like, for you Ray. Read the advice section of this board. You'll find "uneven" experiences some have had with their bishops. We're not yet perfected, but we're in Christ. We're redeemed. And we're headed in the right direction, praise God! The reason you have complete doctrinal unity is because when you aren't sure you refer me and others to lds.org for an official answer, and because you've put your trust in a singular organization. And yet, do you have to wear white shirts in Sacrament meetings or not? Depends on the bishop. There is no such thing as total unity, this side of glory.

Ray challenged me to look for myself to the official http://www.lds.org website for answers to my questions about the premortal existence of humanity as spirits. He claimed there were numerous biblical references to our existence before the creation. So, here’s my verse by look at what the website offered. The Scriptures LDS HomeScriptures Study Helps Topical Guide M Man, Antemortal Existence of Prev | Next TOPICAL GUIDE MAN, ANTEMORTAL EXISTENCE OF See also Council in Heaven; Foreordination; Man, a Spirit Child of Heavenly Father; Spirit Creation Num. 16: 22 (Num. 27: 16) God of the spirits of all flesh. Most Christians agree that we are body, soul and spirit. Some conflate soul/spirit. Our disagreement is over whether these spirits existed before the creation. The passage does not address this issue. Job 38: 7 all the sons of God shouted for joy. Most Christians agree that we are the sons and daughters of God. We disagree that we are essentially the same as Christ, the one and only begotten, God the Son. We are children by adoption and creation–not in our essence. Eccl. 12: 7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. We believe our souls to be both finite, in that they came into existence at conception, and immortal, because we face an everlasting destiny. Those who are blessed will return to the Father, those who are damned, will go to eternal punishment. Jer. 1: 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee. God is omniscient. He know all things, even before they are. There’s quite a theological discussion that is centuries old as to whether God’s foreknowledge means we are predestined to our everlasting fates. Zech. 12: 1 Lord . . . formeth the spirit of man within him. I would argue that if the Father formed our spirits, then they were created–they had a beginning. John 9: 2 who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind. I’m not sure what the reference has to do with premortal spirits. There was a common belief that children bore the punishment for their parents’ sins–Jesus refutes this–in this case saying the man was born this way so that God might be glorified. Acts 17: 28 poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Paul is addressing a group of intellectuals and explaining that just as they have known that we are the offspring (i.e. creation) of God, he is now going to tell them who that God is and how they can be reconciled to Him. That we are called offspring would not be meant to contradict John 3:16, in which Jesus is called the ONLY begotten of God. Rom. 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. This is a favorite verse of Calvinists, who believe God pre-determined our fates, because of his sovereignty. Such a view would diminish any free agency or will we might have. Regardless, this verse does not mean that the Father had intimate relationship with us before creation, but rather that He knew we were coming and what we would become. Eph. 1: 4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world. Once again, God’s foreknowledge of our existence does not mean that we had intimate relationship with him prior to creation. Heb. 12: 9 subjection unto the Father of spirits. God created us with spirits–so He surely is the Father of spirits. Jude 1: 6 angels which kept not their first estate. I believe this refers to Satan and a third of the angels who rebelled against God, thus leaving their domain or estate. I’m not sure how this relates to the premortal existence of HUMAN spirits. Rev. 12: 7 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. I’m not sure what relevence this passage has. Yes, angels did exist before human creation. That does not mean we do. Conclusion: If we presuppose the antemortal existence of human spirits, these verses could bolster that belief. However, if without that presupposition, these verses merely point to God’s foreknowledge of human existence, and perhaps even hint at predestination (though I’m not in that particular theological camp).

No, I believe he said he had rediscovered the Truth. John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.KJV

Jesus said, "I am the ... Truth."