prisonchaplain
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Posts posted by prisonchaplain
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Traveler makes some powerful and interesting comments about the joy of sacrifice--and how it is built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ's atonement. I mostly could only respond with "Amen." To obey is better than sacrifice. We cannot say we love God if we do not love one another. If we love Christ we'll obey his commands. We are not to tire in doing good. We're love our enemies, to feed and clothe them. We're to bring healing, deliverence and salvation to a resistent and often hostile world. We're to count it joy when we are mocked and persecuted for the Name.
However, we can be sincere and be sincerely wrong. Furthermore, we can give our lives to the flames, but if we have not love, it is purposeless.
So, oh how we need the Holy Spirit to reside with us and in us--and even to overflow out of us. I don't want to be a 30 or 60-fold Christian--I want to produce 100-fold. I don't want to be a 1 or 2 talent Christiant. I want to be the 5-talent one that ends with 10.
I don't want to be lukewarm. I want to be hot!
Hunger, that sense of urgency, the fire in our bellies--the Christian that is not consumed by the things of this world. That's what I want.
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When Ray and others--even including myself--speak about how we will be judged according to what we are willing to accept, the underlying truth is that the Holy Spirit will communicate truth to our hearts. The Old and New Testaments promise that whoever seeks God in sincerity will find Him.
So, if the Joseph Smith's revelations and the LDS gospel are true, those who sought God and were exposed to the teachings, and did not accept them, would be assumed to have "resisted the Holy Spirit."
As a counterpoint, if his revelations and the subsequent set of teaching that developed within the COJCLDS proves to have been wrong, then the assumption is that those who sought God when they heard these teachings, sensed that they should resist and turn to a traditional Christian fellowship, but did not.
Of course, most people realize that they are many mitigating factors. How strong was the witness? How much understanding had the individual received? Was the failure due to blatant rebellion, spiritual pride, simple laziness, or was there a measure of honest ignorance? So, most people say--"Well, here's the general pathway for one who fails, but I'll leave the ultimate judging to God."
As an example, one LDS poster at hannity.com refused to say that MANY non-LDS would get into the Celestial Kingdom. He even speculated that a majority of residents there would not have been LDS in their earthly existence.
Bottom-line: Most of us here are intelligent, spiritually hungry, truth-seekers. Personally, I want to get it right in this go-around--especially since I currently believe there'll be no 2nd chances in the afterlife!
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Now some have a hard time with the extent of this concept and say that if you are born as man stuff you can never be G-d stuff. This would exclude someone from being happy in the Celestial Kingdom but with this kind of thinking one can happily being saved in the Telestial Kingdom and receive all the blessing they hope for in the salvation they seek (excluding the G-d stuff that they may not really desire for what ever reason they do not desire that which is G-dly).
Traveler, you've struck upon a conversation I've been having here, and at the Religion (Re: Mormonism) at hannity.com. And that is: To LDS the only real heaven is the Celestial Kingdom. No matter how "glorious" or "satisfactory" the Telestial/Terrestial kingdoms may be--they lack a key ingredient--the presence of God the Father!
That said, if I'm wrong about the nature of humanity and God, I, like most folk, would be "happy" to be corrected at the pearly gates, and then granted entry into the Celestial Kingdom. If you find it unreasonable that evangelicals question the orthodoxy--and by implication the salvation--of LDS, because of belief that God was once a man and that humanity can become God, I would find it equally unreasonable that I might be denied entry into the eternal presence of my heavenly Father, because I misunderstood such metaphysical concepts.
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Fox is Mexico's president? The way he acts, and the way our congress acts, you'd think he was the president of the USA!
On the immigration issue the government should listen to the people of the USA -- build a border wall now and post the USA's military on the border! In fact, let's get really tough and adopt MEXICO's immigration laws -- now they are tough, although I would not want our security forces to be as racist as Mexico's are.
You know, there is another way.
Kum by ya, my Lord. Kum by ya.
Kum by ya, my Lord. Kum by ya... well you get the idea.
I think the Apostle Paul put it another way: (1 Corinthians 13:13) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (KJV)
Now, I am sure that is how the Mexican "guests" (by the way, do other country's make their guests clean their toilets too???) will see your ideas--walls, armies, etc., but silly me--I must be blind to the
you're trying to communicate to them. -
No, because God made baptism a requirement for entrance into the kingdom of God.
We could argue that point, but it's not necessary for this issue. Rather, let me clarify: What you really mean is that God made baptism by someone with the authority to do so (i.e., someone with the priestly keys--someone with either the original gospel or the restored gospel) a requirement. In other words, those Christians who lived and died from 100 to 1840 or so will have to have a baptism for the dead done on their behalf, and they will have to accept the ceremony, before they can enter the kingdom of heaven. Correct?
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Mmmm, let's see ~ that is 142.85 posts a month for the 7 months that you have been here. Which is 33.22 posts a week, or 4.74 posts a day! And the majority of your posts are not short either.
You got to get a life, PC!!!
I have enjoyed your posts, and I have learned a lot from you. Thanks.
She's been communicating with my wife. Yikes! I think she has a "life list" for me. GULP!Awesome Chap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have a way of being affirming--and yet, with that eye of yours, scary at the same time. Thanks!
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Warning; My comments are not as kind as our non-LDS friends may deserve.
I feel while I'm reading these threads, that I'm listening to scribes, pharisees and saducees. Each of these groups studied the scriptures, diligently. Each came up with a idea what the true gosple was and how they were suposed to live, to please our Heavenly Father.
Without the Holy Spirit, they could not find the truth in the scriptures. Without humilty, Prayer, Scripture Study and the companionship of His Holy Ghost Iam no better.
I end my comments not because I don't have things to say, but because everything that is popping into my head is not helpfull. If, as you read this, I hope that you don't find yourself angry with me. I wish only the best for everyone I have met on this website.
Quite frankly, I see nothing but truth in the content of what you say. I would only suggest that you broaden your audience to include both non-LDS AND LDS. -
#1: The Holy Spirit is not the same Spirit or person as the Spirit of our Lord or our heavenly Father. Or in other words, the Holy Ghost is usually the person we are referring to by the name of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit can also refer to the Spirit of our Lord or even the Spirit of our Father in heaven, because their Spirits are also Holy. In some of your posts you seemed to know this, but in some of your other posts I wasn’t so sure.
Although we can grasp the Godhead, the totality of it is beyond us. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are indeed three persons, yet one God. So Jesus is a distinct person, yet, when we see him we see the Father. And, he is called "Everlasting Father" by Isaiah. He relates to the Father as a dutiful Son, yet the Father says to him, "Your throne, O God, will last forever..." Likewise, the Holy Spirit is a distinct person, with his own attributes and will. Yet, He reflects and communicates the will of the Father, and yes, of the Godhead to us. So, I think I get it--and yet, we are all still getting it.
The Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) will only dwell within us (with his Spirit mingled with our spirit in our physical body) only as long as we are righteous, because the moment we do anything to offend the Holy Ghost he will leave our physical body… .although He may decide to come back to us once we have done our best to Repent.
And yet, we are told God will chase after us, even into the pits of hell. It is the Holy Spirit who brings conviction, and helps us to stop, repent, and turn back to the right way. Of course, our communion with the Spirit is deeper and holier when we walk in righteousness. However, when we stumble, not only does He eagerly await our repentence, he draws us to it, and holds our hand as we enter into reconcilation.
The Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) can dwell within any body, with the understanding that He can’t tolerate any degree of unrighteousness, but within only one body at a time, although His power can be felt by every body who receives a manifestation from Him. Or in other words, the Holy Spirit is a person, and any person can only be in one place at a time, but He can help every body to feel His presence by the power He has to do that. And btw, when I first joined the Church, this was made more clear to me by using an analogy of the sun, which is in only one place in our solar system and can be felt by all who feel it.
Is this Ray talking, or the LDS Church? The Holy Spirit is Spirit, and can dwell with all God's people at the same time. When many souls are converted at one time, the Holy Spirit indwells each of them. And, He stays with us all the time. I walk, "not by might, nor by power, but by the Spirit."
He will come to them if they are worthy of His presence.
I didn't really want to repeat the whole discussion about authority, and who can receive the gift of the Spirit, in this thread. I did take note of your point, though.
I am curious about this clip, though. I would argue than none are worthy of His presence, other than by the shed blood of Christ. Even Isaiah, probably the greatest of the Old Testament prophets, fell on his face, and declared himself and his people (the Jews--God's Chosen) to be unclean people with unclean lips." "It's not by works of righteousness, but according to his mercy...And that’s basically all I wanted to add, because everything else you said was right on, although I will also say that the best gifts available by the power of the Holy Ghost are the revelations of truth with love from God. :)
The fruit of the Spirit, which is love (1 Cor. 13) is available to "whosoever will may come"
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1000 posts! Wow!
You can't help but learn when you read and write like that. I'd like to thank all the little people who helped me to earn this great honor. Seriously, we've had some challenging, intelligent and often fun discussions here. And, you're all GIANTS in my book. I hope I've been able to share a bit of life, and offer some useful information along the way.
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I hope that when you read the Book of Mormon you do it looking for spiritual insight and not to see how it can be torn apart. I can assure you that if you look with a desire to know spiritual things you will find them.
I'll read it with care and with a mind to get the big picture, and with anointing from the Holy Spirit.
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This is where I was confused. I always thought most people used the term Christian to refer to someone who believed in Jesus as Savior; I didn't know you also meant someone who will dwell with God in the next life. I understand now.
Well, you were half right. We do believe the term "Christian" refers to someone who believes in Jesus as Saviour. However, we also believe that such faith is sufficient for entry into eternity with God.
Now, if someone believes in Jesus as Savior--but does not believe that his/her faith is sufficient--that works must also be done to earn the salvation--we would label such beliefs heterodox (unacceptable).
I'm afraid I used many, many more words in an attempt to say just that. Your quote above proves Shakespeare was right: Brevity is the soul of wit. :)
I'm not suggesting that such an approach will necessarily garner more souls, but it will clear up some of the confusion that exists between the LDS Church and the rest of us.
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1. See Daniel 12:1 What happens to someone who's name is not found?
(Daniel 12:1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (KJV)
Traveler, if the name's in the book they'll be delivered. If not, a later verse suggests "others to shame and everlasting contempt." (verse 2).
So, what happens to someone who's name is not found. My reading suggests verse 2. Am I misunderstanding you?
2. Did Jesus submit himself to ritualistic requirements? Like baptism (which was necessary for the Jews)??? I disagree that baptism is a testimony to salvation. I believe baptism is for the remission of sins. But since Jesus did not need remission of sins it was to fulfill "all rightiousness".
Jesus observed rituals, but I would not read into that a sacramental view of salvation. Then again, perhaps He did--ultimately and finally. After all, He was the sacrificial Lamb, who died 'once and for all.' Yes, He fulfilled all righteousness. And, it is our embrace of Him--and that fulfillment--that saves us. He fulfilled all rituals. We observe two--baptism, out of obedience to his command, and the Lord's Supper, out of obedience to the apostolic example and Jesus' command "this do in rememberance of me."
If there are no ritualistic requirements - why did G-d command rituals?
Yes, God gave us rituals. But, they are not prerequisites of salvation. Rather, they are part of obedient Christian living.
I believe that if G-d even makes a minor suggestion that he has let us know his will and that it is a sin to go against or teach contrary to the will of G-d. It is only necessary to live by every word that comes from G-d if someone intends to enjoy living with G-d.
I don't disagree. Our point of concern is whether ordinances are done out of obedient Christian living, or as the vehicle of salvation.
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LDS believe that during the Millenium, temples will dot the earth. With the aid of direct revelation and ministering of angels, every name of every person who didn't have a chance to receive saving ordinances will be compiled. Consequently, there will be a 1,000 year period to perform ordinances for the dead. It will be a "No soul left behind," kinda thing. :)
If I'm reading you correctly, the main advantages to investigating and embracing the LDS gospel is: 1. If it's true, you'd want to embrace God's truth, of course, and 2. You have the privilege of leading others into this truth through rituals (baptisms through the dead), mission work, and of course, raising up gospel families.
Far better to find out now and get it right, of course. However, the dilemma of "What about those who don't know?" is handily solved here.
Bottom-line: Without addressing the basic "is it true?" question, the teaching is nice and neat.
Absolutely the restitution or restoration of the New Testament Covenant (read: Church). At the risk of being a broken record, the two key parts of God's covenant with any dispensation/covenant (new or old) are: (1) authority to speak for God and perform ordinances; (2) correct knowledge of God and ordinances. This is an extreme exercise in "Cliffs Notes-condensing," but I think it suffices.
I think so many who know little of your faith would be surprised to learn that you folk, who look and talk like rather conservative fundamentalist/evangelicals, in many ways are more akin to the Catholic Church, in your views of church offices and the spiritual power of sacraments. I say this as an observation of what I'm learning here, not a criticism. If I'm "off" on this, feel free to explain further.
However, the church organization Christ established during his ministry. apostles/bishops/deacons/elders/seventies etc...) was not man-made, but God-given. I see God's kingdom as one of order, and an organized church as God's way of administering salvation in an orderly and not chaotic manner.
People will argue endlessly about what aspects of the New Testament accounts are merely descriptive, and which are proscriptive. I'll grant you that a reasonable argument could be made for your church structure, while simply saying that the emphasis on offices and the authority of leaders is foreign to my own tradition. Again, there are similarities here to Catholic practice.
Aside from LDS beliefs and revelations (that's cutting away a lot), my reading of the Old and New Testaments leads me to conclude that God always governs, guides and saves His people within a structure of priesthood offices and ordinances.
As a note of explanation, my movement more a less goes with the Baptist teaching of the "priesthood of all believers." Ironically, you do too--though in a more formalized way. Active men hold the priesthood, and active woman usually have callings as well.
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What brought you to LDS Talk? ... Then they are some who are here just to stir up a hornets nest, spread disharmony, and bash us. ... For LDS and Non-LDS ~ what brought you here?
Yeah, I was hoping to stir things up, disharmonize, bash about, but y'all were too nice.
Actually, I came to share and learn. MrsS is right that some posters here are intelligent, patient, and frankly interesting. Additionally, the different backgrounds (some who've grown up in the faith, some who've come to it from no other, and others, like Ray, who come from backgrounds similar to my own). I have shared a lot, gotten some nice comments, and learned an incredible amount.Many thanks...kudos to Heather, for maintaining this unique and well-balanced forum!
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I believe Jesus told Joseph Smith the answer to that question in 1820 (First Vision) and again in 1830 (formal organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). If you're looking for me to try to prove this, I'm not going to. It's a matter of spiritual assurance, witness, testimony and belief. The Book of Mormon really is the best witness for or against such beliefs. Read it. Pray about it. It's true. Seek spiritual guidance in deciding for yourself. :)
I appreciate this straightforward answer. Until Vatican II, the Roman Catholic Church proclaimed similar beliefs. Their stance has softened considerably, but I do recognize that the LDS is not the first Church to proclaim itself a sole holder of keys.
Now you can understand our zeal for missionary work and sharing what we have. :)
Again, a direct, yet positive answer. Thank you.
Nope. We're saying that if a Christian is someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God who died to save sinners, we are Christians. We're not saying you have to be LDS to be Christian. It's one thing to say you don't believe in Jesus, and another to say Jesus has authorized one church on earth to represent him and his authority.
And this is where consternation and misunderstanding brew between LDS and the rest of us.
IMHO all true Christians will enter God's best heavenly kingdom. And a non-true Christian is simply not a Christian. So, doing away with the adjectives, whatever a Christian is--it is someone who will indeed spend forever in the presence of the Heavenly Father, because of faith in his Son Jesus (the Christ).
My point: If the definition you are using above "believes Jesus = Son of God who died to save sinners" is NOT enough to get one into the eternal presence of the Heavenly Father, then it's a misleading definition. Far better to just frankly say that a Christian is one who:
(1) Have a mighty change of heart (change in thoughts and desires);
(2) Faith and repentance;
(3) Baptism by immersion;
(4) Receipt of the Holy Ghost;
(5) For men, receive Melchizedek Priesthood;
(6) For men and women, receive temple initiatory and endowment;
(7) For those who marry, be married eternally in the temple;
(8) Keep covenants, endure to the end (serve where called, love others).
Granted, it may not be quite as nice. However, such an approach is more honest, clear, and can be mitigated sufficiently to take the edge off.
For example, "My dear evangelical friend, yes yes, of course we share a common Christian heritage. However, along the way, the churches went astray, and lost key truths and practices. God has restored those practices in our church, and we encourage you to come and taste--and see that His gospel is good."
Maybe I should have gone into advertising?
Message to all: This particular string has really clarified some LDS teachings for me. Many thanks to all who've contributed. I am getting to the point where the primary text will need to be tackled.
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PC, there are many God obeying non LDS that will find themselves worthy to enter in to the Celestial Kingdom after all they have done in this life. I believe that we will find more non LDS there than LDS there who did not have the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life who when they have it preached to them in the spirit world will accept.
At this point I'm trying to get the bottom line (how American of me, I know!). Ben is saying that so many in the Celestial Kingdom will be those who were not LDS in their earthly lifetimes (assuming they did not have an opportunity to hear).
The key--and this is the big "We're not harsh here--we work hard so all have a chance"--is that those who are have died, and receive the baptism for the dead, will be able to embrace "the gospel," and enter the Celestial Kingdom.
Another clarification: "The Gospel" is not ADMIT, BELIEVE, CONFESS (Jesus). It is the LDS Restoration:
(1) Have a mighty change of heart (change in thoughts and desires);
(2) Faith and repentance;
(3) Baptism by immersion;
(4) Receipt of the Holy Ghost;
(5) For men, receive Melchizedek Priesthood;
(6) For men and women, receive temple initiatory and endowment;
(7) For those who marry, be married eternally in the temple;
(8) Keep covenants, endure to the end (serve where called, love others).
My understand that qualifying as having heard it in this life and rejecting it has to do with having Holy Ghost witness to you that it is true and then rejecting it. Having the missionaries knock on your door and you turn them away or offer them a drink but say no thank you I am not interested does not meet the requirement of hearing the gospel and rejecting it in this life.
If so, is it at least fair to say, in the end, Mormon soteriology (salvation teaching) is very sacramental (in the same manner as Catholics, who teach that salvation is communicated and received via the sacraments)? As for who has heard and understood, the whole issue is mostly speculative in all Christian communities, imho. My bottom-line--and my guess is that most LDS would agree--is that God is just, and nobody will question his judgments.
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I know that God is my Heavenly Father and that I literally am his daughter. He loves me and wants all of his children to return to him. I know that he has given us these bodies to learn and grow and to become more like him. He is our Father. I know this to be true, inside and out. When I have ripped everything else away the simple truthfulness of this Gospel was all that was there. I know it to be true. God loves us. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
This is beautiful in its simplicity. Live testimonies, where we are able to hear more of the heart, and the personal nature of one's spiritual awakening to the reality of God's love are so encouraging and faith-building. I notice to the very personal nature of the poster's relationship to God (note my boldfacing of key phrases).
And yet...I'm reading from others about picking the right church, the right leaders to pray over me, the right people to perform rituals over me, etc. A struggle many "low church" Protestants have with the Catholic Church is that the sacramental system seems to put ceremonies and human leaders as mediators between me and my God. Jesus says he's the only mediator.
My hope is not to persuade or criticize, but to explain why it is that evangelicals in particular run into spiritual culture shock by some of the teachings of the LDS church. Hopefully if we understand each other better we can talk to each other with ever increasing wisdom.
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Let's say you have the chance to study the restored gospel (read Book of Mormon, missionary discussions, etc...) and pray about it. If you receive a witness of its truth and still are not baptized, I don't think you'd be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom.
I guess my question would be "why?" Is there a doctrinal test for entry into the Celestial Kingdom? Is the formula of Admit I'm a Sinner, Believe Jesus, Confess my sins, and, of course, subsequent to conversion, enduring to the end, not sufficient? Is there really only one organization that serves as gatekeeper to the highest heaven?
True ordinances must be performed, by true authority from God. I know you're familiar with all this, so I wonder what the real question you have is?
We've hinted around about these issues, but not in this context. So, no--I've never seen a clearly dilineated list of the minimum requirements for entry into the Celestial Kingdom.
Here is a list, in case you've never seen it broken down simply, of what qualifies someone for exaltation in the highest degree of the Celestial Glory. All ordinances are assumed to be performed by valid priesthood authority.
(1) Have a mighty change of heart (change in thoughts and desires);
(2) Faith and repentance;
(3) Baptism by immersion;
(4) Receipt of the Holy Ghost;
(5) For men, receive Melchizedek Priesthood;
(6) For men and women, receive temple initiatory and endowment;
(7) For those who marry, be married eternally in the temple;
(8) Keep covenants, endure to the end (serve where called, love others).
Ironically, this list looks similar to a list of sacraments the Catholic Church has. The difference is, if I'm not mistaken, Catholics say that non-Catholic Christians may also enter heaven. If I see this list correctly, it will be nearly impossible for non-LDS Christians who've had exposure to the beliefs to enter the Celestial Kingdom, short of conversion to the Church.
Bottom-line: Oldtimer (an LDS teacher who posts at hannity.com re: Mormonism) tells me Mormons essentially only view the Celestial Kingdom as truly heaven, since only there does the Heavenly Father reside. If so, are LDS, on the one hand complaining that other Christians falsely accuse them of not being part of the family, and on the other hand saying that all non-LDS Christians really don't belong in the family. In otherwords "Us too--and not you."
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I am reformatting MrsS' post, so the questions are enumerated. Also, if I'm understanding correctly, the questions also represent prerequisites for entry into the Celestial Kingdom.
1. Were you baptized by one with the priesthood keys authorized and bestowed by Jesus?
2. Were the men who laid hands on you to bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost holders of the Priesthood authorized and bestowed by Jesus?
3. Have you and your wife received your Endowments?
4. Are you sealed to your wife and children for Time and All Eternity?
5. When you received your Endowments and were sealed was it in one of Our Lords Dedicated Temples, and the work performed by a priesthood holder?
If so, then yes, as long as you and your wife live up to your covenants with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, until you pass from this mortal world into the Spirit world, you are good to go.
Just to be clear, today, those priesthood key holders, those Priesthood holders, the location and grantor of Endowments, those who perform the sealings, and those who control our Lord's dedicated temples--all of these can only be found with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Furthermore, according to an LDS poster at another forum (hannity.com, Re: Mormonism), true heaven to LDS is the Celestial Kingdom. So, basically, entry into heaven requires active, obedient membership in the LDS Church.
Yes, I know--others can get into the other heavenly kingdoms. However, the presence of the Heavenly Father is not in those. Active Mormons would not seek to get into those. Again, true heaven would be the Celestial Kingdom.
If so, this is the bottom-line reason non-LDS Christians struggle so with your church. You say, "Hey, we're Christians too." Then, we get the bottom line: In this age, unless you've got some powerful mitigating circumstances, our church is the only sure way into that heavenly kingdom in which the presence of the Father resides.
Hopefully to the Celestial Kingdom, if not, then the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms. All three are glorious.
Those other two kingdoms might be "glorious," but the Heavenly Father's presence is not there, and active Mormons would not aim to enter them.
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Quite often I'm challenged by LDS with the question: What do you think I have to do to be 'saved'? My answer--the answer most evangelicals see in the Bible--Admit you're a sinner, Believe in Jesus, Confess your sins. Inevitably, the response is, "Well, I've done all that, so I'm good to go, according to you, right?" And, indeed, Barna Polling recently came out with the surprising statistic that 44% of LDS, when asked a series of theological questions, would indeed fit the evangelical definition of being "born again." (What's up with the other 56%
).So, now let's go at the question in reverse. Here's my situation:
1. I've done the ABCs.
2. Although my faith group does not believe water baptism is a prerequisite of salvation, I have indeed received this ordinance, by full immersion.
3. I've received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the laying on of hands.
4. For the sake of this discussion, assume I'm sincere in all these things, and that I am in an on-going relationship with the Master, including regular prayer, Bible study, church fellowship, full-tithe support, donations for missions projects, and that I respond positively and eagerly to any calls I receive from my church.
5. For the sake of discussion, let's assume I stay true, and 'endure to the end,' in my testimony, faith and practice.
So--am I good to go? Will I likely gain entrance into the Celestial Kingdom?
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I've not attempted to edit this post for and LDS audience. I simply post this very typical lesson to see what points of affirmation, contradiction, inquiry and discussion it might bring out.
Who is the Holy Spirit and What Does He Do?
Proposition: We believe that the Holy Spirit is personality, deity, the performer of the New Birth, the indweller of believers, and the one who enables holiness in us.
Interrogative: How do we know these things about the Holy Spirit, where would be without Him, and why is this so important.
First, let us consider who we are working with.
Who is the Holy Spirit?
We believe in the personality of the Holy Spirit. He is a person, with individuality all his own.
(2 Corinthians 3:17) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (NIV). A power or force is more likely to oppress, constrain, limit...but the Holy Spirit releases, frees, liberates!
(1 Peter 1:2) who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance. (NIV). The distinct work of the Holy Spirit here is sanctification--He works holiness into our lives!
He has characteristics of personhood.
(Romans 8:27) And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. (NIV). Note the mind of the Spirit--The Holy spirit thinks.
(Romans 15:30) I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. (NIV) Note the love of the Spirit--He feels.
(1 Corinthians 12:11) All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. (NIV) The Holy Spirit determines, or wills.
We believe in the deity of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 5:3-4) Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." (NIV)
They lie to the Holy Spirit. They lie to God. The Holy Spirit is God.
Some questions to ponder. Can a power or force really be lied to? If the Holy Spirit is not God, what is he? An angel? A god-like thing?
It is good to know who the Holy Spirit is, but what does he do?
What does the Holy Spirit do?
We believe the Holy Spirit performs the miracle of the new birth in those becoming Christians.
(John 16:7-8) But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: (NIV). The Holy Spirit Convicts people of sin--making them feel guilty. We must understand our need for God's forgiveness before we can become Christians. Note that it is not our place to make people feel conviction--that's the Spirit's work. We simply inform them that we are all guilty before God.
(John 3:3-6) In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. (NIV) The new birth--being born again--salvation--comes from the Holy Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 12:13) For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free-- and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. (NIV). The Holy Spirit puts us into the body of Christ--making us a part of the family of God.
We believe the Holy Spirit indwells believers.
(Romans 8:9) You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. (NIV). Catch this--the Spirit of God lives in you! Are you really comfortable taking the Holy Spirit to some of the places you go, to say the things you say, and do the things you do?
(1 Corinthians 6:19) Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; (NIV). We are a holy place where the Holy Spirit of God lives!
We believe the Holy Spirit enables believers to live godly lives.
(Romans 8:4) in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. (NIV). God's law is fulfilled in us by the Holy Spirit.
(Galatians 5:16-17) So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. (NIV). If we live by the Spirit in us, we will not fall to sinful temptations.
(2 Thessalonians 2:13) But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. (NIV) The Holy Spirit helps us live clean lives before the God.
If the Holy Spirit is so important, how come we do not hear more about Him? Just how bad would it be if we did not have the Spirit--just Jesus and the Father?
Where would we be without the Holy Spirit?
(Genesis 1:2) Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. (Job 33:4) The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life. (NIV) No creation. No universe. No human race.
(2 Peter 1:21) For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (NIV). Without the Holy Spirit there would be no prophecy. There would be no proclamation of God's Word.
(Acts 1:8) But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." (NIV) Without the Holy Spirit there would be no power. There would be no witness and no hope for a lost and dying world.
Okay, okay! So I believe in the Holy Spirit. Is it necessary to have a detailed understanding of him?
Why is the doctrine of the Holy Spirit so important?
We must understand the Holy Spirit to understand the God we worship. It is a common error for we Christians to regard the Holy Spirit as a power or force, instead of as a person. This leads to a lack of respect. This leads to a lack of intimacy. This leads to our efforts to control the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is with us all the time. We think of Jesus as being one person at one place at a time.
The Holy Spirit is at all places at all times. Jesus said to his disciples as he was about to leave them that it was good for him to go, so that the Holy Spirit could come.
Life apart from the Holy Spirit compares poorly to life with the Holy Spirit. Life without out the Holy Spirit is like this: (Galatians 5:19-21) The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (NIV)
Life with the Holy Spirit is like this: (Galatians 5:22-23) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (NIV)
WOW! We've learned a lot, but what have we learned? What shall we do?
Conclusions
1. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to save us from our sins.
2. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to use us when we witness.
3. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to lead us away from sin.
4. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to help us love God and our neighbors.
5. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to make us wiser when we read and study the Bible.
6. Let us trust the Holy Spirit to be with us all the time.
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Whoa ~ I thought that entry into the Celestial, Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms only happens at the second coming/Resurrection? Am I reading Prison Chaplain wrong?
Keep in mind that non-LDs only believe in the heavenly kingdom. I go with the Apostle Paul on this one:
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.(KJV)
And as for the hope that there's still opportunity for conversion after death, I go with the writer of Hebrews:
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:(KJV)
Understanding these beliefs, whether you agree or not, you might better understand the consternation of non-LDS Christians with the belief that there was 1700+ years of apostasy.
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The answer is in the New Testament and in LDS doctrine: Baptism for the dead. 1 Cor. 15 talks about baptism for the dead who will rise, for those who didn't have the chance during life. After all, Jesus taught that to fulfill all righteousness baptism is required, and that no man can enter into God's kingdom but by being born of water and Spirit (baptism, laying on of hands for gift of the Holy Ghost). ... I just wanted to say that there is a solution to the apparent denail of salvation to those who lived during the apostasy. Whether we agree is another matter of course.
Two key issues:
1. Entry into the Celestial Kingdom is at least partly dependent on someone post-mortem finding my information, and performing the ceremony. If my name doesn't get found, I'm out of the Celestial Kingdom.
2. Many Christians, myself included, do not agree that their are any ritualistic requirements attached to salvation. Water baptism is a testimony to the salvation I have experienced. The fulfillment of righteousness took place at Calvary. Same goes for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost--it's a gift--one that we Pentecostals believe is subsequent to salvation.
Now we may disagree on what the keys are and what they're for. My point is that besides seeing Christ, apostles need to have priesthood keys to direct or preside over the church.
The hierarchical nature of your doctrine in these areas, and the strong emphasis on office and authority explains much about the doctrinal and behavioral discipline within the LDS Church. So, if nothing else, the teachings do have practical benefits. :)
If there had been no restoration, I'd agree. But we're in Act Two of a three act play (premortal, mortal, resurrection). We haven't reached the end yet, so Satan hasn't ultimately prevailed against Christ's church.
To fine tune what you've said: How would you compare the age of apostasy in the Christian church with typical periods of degeneration in Israel (under wicked kings, during times of prolific syncretism with surrounding Pagans)?
I do understand how it could be difficult to hear that Christ has restored his New Testament church, and that to dwell with God in the highest heaven we must join it. I imagine it was hard as well for the Jews/Gentiles in Christ's day to hear that their system of worship wasn't enough to grant them entrance into God's kingdom, and that new ordinances (such as baptism) and new practices (Lord's Supper instead of Passover) had to be accepted.
So, there it is. Are you essentially saying that the COJCLDS is the Third Covenenant (Old, New, LDS?) God has offered to his people? Or, perhaps, the restitution of the lost second one?
Yet this is precisely the message Christ told his disciples to spread through the world, as in Matt. 28:19-20. Not saying that should make it easier to hear, just that it's not a new message.
My sense is that Jesus was moving us away from dependence on organizations and man-made systems of worship and ritual, and towards direct relationship with God, and then with the people of God. So, in a sense, this restored gospel almost sounds like a return to the older system. -
Receantly in a General Conference, one of the apostles(or a seventy) speaking of the founders of the USA and marthin Luther, said such men 'were saved". So there you go. Although God allowed His Church to be mistreated by men, hence the "kingdom of God has been proclaimed but the violent take it away", God saved such persons based on their knowledge at the time, and their probabilities. Surely if Luther indeed had the best intention towards God and received revelation to protest, he could have been saved based on his limmited knowledge. Although the ordinances had to be done, this does not mean that such people did'nt get saved.
But what does it mean that they were saved? Were they consigned to the Terrestial Kingdom, forever to miss out on the presence of the Heavenly Father? And, who were "such men?" Just the heroes, those very few who did extraordinary things to further God's plan.
And btw, that's the same standard God uses with everyone to determine if they really love God and all of His words... not basing where they go by what other people know, but what they know and knew from God.
Ray, your answer to this question may clarify this whole issue of the general apostasy: During the period of the apostasy, from roughly 100 - 1840 AD, was it possible for those who believed in Christ sincerely, based on what knowledge they had, to DIRECTLY gain entry into the Celestial Kingdom (i.e., meaning that they did not have to depend on someone in doing a specific water baptism in their name after the Restoration)?
you're trying to communicate to them.
She's been communicating with my wife. Yikes! 
I think she has a "life list" for me. GULP!
Quite frankly, I see nothing but truth in the content of what you say. I would only suggest that you broaden your audience to include both non-LDS AND LDS. 
You can't help but learn when you read and write like that. I'd like to thank all the little people who helped me to earn this great honor. 
).
Entry Into The Celestial Kingdom
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Yeah, I seem to remember you retiring at 3000--16 posts ago. So, how was the long weekend?
Bottom-line: I believe our God is the "full disclosure" type. If there are three heavenly kingdoms, everyone in them will know it.
Now wait a minute!
I understood that most people "of sincere religious faith" will enter the Terrestial kingdom. Now you're relegating us to the third level??? 
Some people looked at how Paul went and entered into those conversations, ultimately winning "a few souls," and they say, "What a waste of time!" Others see the same account and say, "Wow! Now there's a model for engaging the culture, and presenting Christ in an intelligent, worthy manner." I side with the latter.