Galatians220

Your 2 cents is a good suppliment to me in the defense of the Trinity :) Heis does mean One but in a kind of a union as you just said. Thanks for your contribution Elohel By the way, is your name in hebrew? :)

Yes, it is sola scriptura, I didn't want to use terms that some may not be familiar with. Do you know if this Evangelical is one who originally is a believer in the inerrancy of scripture? I would like to read it when I have time but I'd like to know from those who use to believe in it.

Before I post my question my coming here is for my learning about the LDS Church. I began my search when I met an LDS in class and from then on I attended on Sundays going on all three classes (Communion, Doctrines, and Mens) for six months. I wanted to learn from the LDS thenselves instead of learning only from the Apologist themselves. I've ended my visits because of a lack of time, church priorities, but also learning enough to know that, unfortunately have more disagreements with the LDS doctrine than agree. However, I have promised my friend to continue reading the Book of Mormon so that the Spirit can enlighten me on things that may confirm the truth you all believed in, and I will keep that promise. I am here to learn from you, on why you believed that the Book of Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true and I feel that there is no better group or place to ask than here. I want to talk to those who use to believe in: 1. The Word of God being the primary source of Truth. 2. The Trinity (One God in 3 persons opp. to personages) 3. In Salvation by Faith Alone (as well as Eternal Security, "Once Saved, Always Saved") I want most especially to talk to those who have read the Bible for many years as an Evangelical/Protestant and if any, those who have experiences and learning in Apologetics, defending the 3 fundamental doctrines above. My primary question to you is this: What argument most convinced you from the Word of God, to change from believing in these fundamentals to believing just the opposite of them? This is pretty much the last part of my learning about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. apart from the Book of Mormon. I look forward to reading all of your feedbacks. I've received a lot of feedback but it wasn't what I was expecting. Some came out of curiosity but others came suspecting yet another attacker of their faith and that 's understandable. Let me assure you all that I am not here to debunk any doctrine or beliefs. My purpose here is only to learn and encourage. If anyone would like to tell their story on how they've converted from a fundamentalist Protestant/Evangelical Church to the LDS, I'd be happy to hear and learn from you. You will not be condemned by me nor will I let anyone do that. Debating will also be prohibited here, this is a neutral thread. I will however answer questions but if anyone wishes to challenge me, then set up your own thread but not here. God bless :)

Hi guys, sorry for the long delay; I've been pretty busy lately so I may not be able to respond any time soon. Hopefully by next week, I will be able to submit my answers to you all. However, after my submission, I will only have time to talk with only one person so decide among yourselves who will be the group spokes person. God bless :)

Why is it hard for you to believe that God can, by his words, frame the world in 6 days? You know for a fact that the majority of the scientific community disbelieved in God because He cannot be observed, tested, lacked evidence of his existence, and that Evolution itself disproves God simply because Man evolved came from monkeys which, obviously, He didn't look like at all, did he? Are you willing to believe that God looked like a Monkey? If you have given in to the old earth theory despite the fact that the Bible clearly says that God created everything in 6 days simply because it seemed more realistic, then why don't you, believe in evolution because: 1. There are a number of artifacts that seemed to strongly suggest, that man evolved from ones who first walked upright to ones who used tools but just below modern man. 2. Our DNA and that of the monkeys in terms of closeness is only 98%. How is it then that Man didn't evolve from Monkeys when they're DNA is that close? 3. Dinosaurs and other living creatures, by fossil records, also seemed to evolve from bacteria, to fishes that soon crawled inland to become as big as a crane. If everything evolved, then why not man because that's what evolution is all about, a biological change that happens over time through mutations in DNA. If you are going to disbelieve scripture for the reason of science, then why not go the whole 9 yards by abandoning your belief in God completely?

Yes, it can be that the scribes fiddled with the records and that the wise men have also rejected the Lord but then the Lord would have said more about the corrupting of His word on the part of the Scribes and the wise men telling them that they have deceived His people to sin and have corrupted his words telling lies. Here is an example of how God holds teachers in strict order: 1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. - James 3:1 The word, master (heb. "Didaskalos"), there is also a word for teacher (1) 1. Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

1st, Carbon Dating (C -14) is not that precise; it is only accurate up to 5000 BC and the rest can be murky which is why the rocks, the fossils, and the Universe varies from Millions to Trillions of years. 2nd, the Tree rings can be confused as well because there are many rings around the main rings 3rd, there are other methods to determine the age of the object such as Radio Dating (1). Evolution, and Heresies have all served to discredit God and His word in one way or another. We should have already expect this to happen because in 1 Timothy 6:20 20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: God has made it clear that he has made the Earth and the life therein, in 6 Literal Days. You could quote scripture that says a “Day is a thousand years to the Lord” (Psalm 90) but look closely at the sentence in Genesis: And the evening and the morning were the first day. - Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, and 31. Every Single Created Thing, ended with those words. There is no arguing with Scripture, it's a 24 hour day. The NT supports the Literal 6 day Creation by this statement in the Book of Hebrews: 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. - Hebrews 11:3 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. - John 1:17 Well we need no magic here because in Deuteronomy 18 it says: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Now Moses is the Law Giver, he was responsible for the Mosaic Law. Here, God will raise a Prophet – Like Unto Thee – that's Moses, and He will speak unto them. Now who do you think have already fulfilled that Prophecy other than the Lord Jesus Christ? He said: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. - Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus went on to complete the Law of Moses order for Him to live and die to the Law so it wouldn't be a Curse on us (Galatians 3:13) As for others, I would advise that you look up Messianic Prophecies concerning Jesus in the OT. I found a link here and it said that it has 365 Prophecies Jesus Fulfilled. 365 Messianic Prophecies Agreed, but if any Prophet contradicts the Word of God: 1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. - Deuteronomy 13:1-3 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. - Deuteronomy 18:21-22 * Recommended Site in Dealing with Evolution: - The True.Origin Archive - Citation links 1. - Radiometric Dating Game - 2. 3. __________________

In the beginning of the context, its talking about all of the people or else God through Jeremiah would only condemn the scribes but he didn't. God would have condemned the Scribes for their deception, fooling the people to sin but the whole context is talking about all of them rejecting, not hearing, not heeding, and so in dismay, it is as though everything what God said was a lie because they said, "we are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us"

Well if you go back to my other posts, you can see that every single one has been answered. If you would just look at the context, you would understand

No worries, both of you will have your fun :) I looked at it closely, even at the meaning of the word and yes, it does seem that the scribe has written erroneously but only if you isolate the verse. Look at the background of why I think it's different: 5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return. 6 I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle. 7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD. 8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain. 9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them? Verse 8 is not saying that the Scribes lied writing false scripture, it is an expression of dismay, an expression of hopelessness on the part God. They have slidden back, they have not hearkened, they have ignored, and they have Rejected the Word of the Lord. Yet again is the value of Context.

Thanks :)

I'm going to research that; I'll be right back with you :)

I;ve just taken a closer look at your point earlier and have now understood them - sorry about that. Now here's what I think of them: 5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return. 6 I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle. 7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD. 8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain. 9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them? It is the rejection of the Lords words by the hearers so in vain, the scribles wrote. The People heed not the Word of God

Your point has not been missed actually; I had a sneaking suspicion that you were using the two versions to give evidence of an imperfection of scripture so I've covered all grounds so to speak, just in case. Now tell me, how has the to different versions showed that the Bible is, "Imperfect?"

I say that they are saying the same thing. The thing is that both quotations are from different versions of the Bible; one is a Semi-paraphrase bible which is the New International Version and the the other is the Literal version of the Bible which is the English Standard version. The Literal Versions reads like this: How do ye say, We [are] wise, and the law of the LORD [is] with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he [it]; the pen of the scribes [is] in vain. - KJV "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood. - NKJV "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. - RSV How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of Jehovah is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes hath wrought falsely. - ASV (Jehovah is in place of the Tetragrammiton LORD) "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie. - NASB So on and so forth. The reason for so many Bible Versions is an attempt to make the Bible more understandable to the contemporary English reader so there's a business of making. A lot of the versions that were after the KJV and the NKJV is based on the oldest text found with is the Alexandrian Text found in Egypt. The KJV in the meanwhile is based on the Textus Receptus gathered around Europe given to the King of England. The Literal versions where made also to be more accurate and faithful to the greek text. Does that mean that the KJV is less accurate? Only to a degree because in examining each one, all of them means the same thing but the words used. Various Bible readings of Jeremiah 8:8 Blue Letter Bible - The Major Prophet Jeremiah 8 (KJV - King James Version)

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. - Matthew 23:15 If a child is raised in a culture of sin, corruption, violence, and hate, the child under the example of those around him will be twice as worse as the parents. A perfect example of this are the people of the Arab world. While the West have been known expansions from the taking of the Americas to the hording of Africa and parts of Asia, the Middle easterners are known for their hatred, wars, violence, and savagery. In fact, we get the word, “Assassins” from the group of Persian murderers who would kill for religious and political reasons (1) For example, Sunnis and Shiites have taught their children to hate and fear the Crusaders and each other so for generations on end, the Sunnis and Shiites warred against each other and have the fear and distrust in westerners. On savagery, violence, and wars, what we have seen in the middle east against the two Israeli soldiers, the four defense contracters at Fallujah, is a product of centuries of practices. This is due to the fact that they gained their ways from the Bedouins who are the decendants of Ishmael (2): 11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. - Genesis 16:11 This is also due to Islam which have driven many to war against any infidel whom they believed to be persecuting them. Those who wanted to go to war used the many Jihadi verses, about 164 of them to justifiy their actions against the Westerners and other unbelievers (3). To be fair, Muhammad wrote the Koran in time when he was fighting against his persecuters but the context showed no reference to that war. The Jihadi verses can easily be taken as a mission to rid the world of the Unbelievers and from the very beginning, the misson of the Muslim Extremists is to turn the world from Dar Al-Harb (House of War) to Dar al-Islam (House of Islam) (4) If they were ordered by God to destroy these people, then don't you think God has a good reason why? 1St, they were annihilated because they are a wicked people whom God can no longer tolerate (Deuteronomy 9:4). 2Nd, God reserved the right to give, and take because everything belonged to him (Exodus 19:5, Psalm 9:16-17). 3rd. He, by nature is Holy and Righteous so he must be Just in all His doing (Exodus 34:6-7). If He does nothing, He ceases to be Just. Well can God keep His word or not? We both know that it is impossible to preserve the text made of perishable material so we wouldn't have the “Original” copies anyways. The oldest text is known today as the Dead Sea Scrolls made 100BC; it was found accidentally but it proved that the OT hasn't changed much at all. And according to Bible scholars, there are about 5000 NT manuscripts and all of them agree with one another. The oldest NT manuscript, the Alexandrian Text is made in the 2nd Cen. AD. But even if we only have the Textus Receptus (which the KJV was based on), He made absolutely clear that He keeps His Word pure (Psalm 12:6), that He Preserved His Word (Proverbs 22:12) and that He hold's His Word to high esteem in a culture where Names have great meaning and importance (Psalm 138:2). God cannot Lie, if somehow, a serious error was found in the Bible, then He has Lied , and He has Failed; Our God would be a product of Jewish Imagination, and Joseph Smith made things up because he based his God from the Old and New Testament. It would have been far better for him to use a made-up god than to use the God of the Bible. This is not the first time the Bible is deemed flawed. The Prophet Muhammad has said that the Bible is corrupted by Man through time, so that's why the Koran was given to Moses by Archangel Gabriel to restore the truth of Allah. Well the answer is that No One saw God's face at all. God can and has come in a form of a man as He did, when He appeared to Abraham as three men (Gen 18:1-3), when He wrestled against Jacob (Ibid 32:24-30), when the Angel appeared to Samson's parents, etc (Judges 13:16, 22-23). Moses Saw God, and He indeed spoke to God face to face but when it comes to Moses' plea to see God's actual face: 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. - Exodus 33:18-20 We may, and I'd love to have bona fide prophets today because it would be nice to have answers for everything, but that doesn't change the fact that God has made clear statements concerning His Words. 1. http://www.alamut.com/subj/ideologies/alamut/etymolAss.htmlome 2.“Philistine” by Ramon Bennett Ch 2, p. 21 3."164 Jihad Verses in the Koran -- Passages in the Quran about Islamic Holy War" compiled by Yoel Natan 4. "Philistine" by Ramon Bennett Ch 3, p. 51

Tell me why

And ?

So you have already concluded that God doesn't exist.... How have you arrived to that conclusion?

Oh, I'm not sure I'm the best person to ask for evidence, but even if I can give you all the evidence you want, but no matter what, you won't accept it. Your heart seemed to be very hard. How can you expect God to reveal himself to you, when you won't open your heart to him in the first place?

I've already answered your question before, so... what do you expect? What's preventing you from believing in Him?

How would you like me to answer your question?

I would love cookies but later; what do you think about my answer?

What do you think of my answer?