Christos

The teachings of the early Fathers are wonderful and are still given to this day. They are doctrinally sound and are really very helpful and interesting :) St John Chrysostom is a famous early teacher. On Ancient Faith Radio, during meat fare (a week before Great Lent) the radio was broadcasting sermons by one of the early fathers. St Nikolai Demyrovich (or something like that) called "Prayers by the lake". I would really like to find if there is a book which has them compiled.....I know this isn't the right forum for that The Creeds are wonderful too and are unchanging to this day (apart from the Roman church adding the Filioque in an attempt to abolish the heretical Ayrian church). I never learnt the nicene creed off by heart before, I know most of it but couldn't recite it so that is something I'm trying to do at the moment. The Orthodox church is the best church to look at for unchanging history. Since the great Schism of the 12th Century when the Roman Patriarchite (now the Roman Catholic church) excommunicated themselves the church has been unwhole and as a result there have been no councils on doctrine or anything, nothing has changed and nothing will change till the Church is whole again. Out of curiousity, does the LDS church accept the Apocrypha as scripture? Plus would the LDS church consider accepting the Gospel according to St Thomas and the controversial Gospel according to Judas Iscariot? Just wondering. Plus, what stages do the LDS church go through to settle on whether a text is scripture or not?

Stupid english language.....we demand better words!

Christos Anesti! Christ is Risen (the above is Greek) I don't like easter eggs, and the candy associated with Easter. Easter is the most important and essential fesitval in the Christian calendar. If it weren't for the resurrection of the Christ, we would be Jews! Christ is Risen from the Dead! Trampling down Death, by Death! And on those in the Tombs, bestowing life! Allelujah! Allelujah! Allelujah! I love holy week and the Easter festivities. As for festivals I don't like, I can't stand Christmas. It is such a waste of time. It wouldn't be so bad if the shops didn't commercialist it. I prefer to celebrate the nativity and not exchange presents, Christmas isn't a very important festival. As for festivals that I think are under rated. The Annunciation of the Theotokos. (theotokos means, God Bearer and is Greek in origin, though it has become an everyday church word) It is the day that the virgin Mary was told that she was going to bear God as her son. It was a day that fulfilled one of the greatest prophesies. I am not a woman but if I were I don't think I'd be able to even consider bearing the Christ. Another festival would be The Festival of the Transfiguration of the Lord. (August 6). And the day of Pentecost And Epiphany These other festivals and many many more are observed by the more Eastern churches and are of extreme importance. I don't like this sort of dual festival idea that we have in western churches. Easter and Christmas are so far apart, and Christmas is of little importance. I do get the impression that Christianity is an Eastern faith that is misinterpreted by the West.

A simple statement but a great truth. I liked the way you phrased it. Bee-eye-en-gee-oh, and bingo was his name-oh. :) Nail on the head, bullseye, checkmate, et al. I wrote down what I heard from the Holy Friday service. 1 Corinthians 1:25 (K.J.V.) 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. Are we to believe G-d is greater than we will ever be - because he does not have the power to do such a thing or because he is not smart enough to do such a thing - or is G-d selfish and cannot allow greatness like his to exist anywhere else? Or perhaps such greatness is not really a good thing? My friend - I submit that even the creation was a great act of love and service and that everything G-d has done is less for him (who needs nothing) including his pleasure, than it was a divine act of service and love for our benefit. I also submit that when we learn to love and serve as he; that he will still love and serve us and welcome us to his side as his friends and will withhold nothing of his greatness from us. And this is the purpose for which he created us and the greatest praise that we or anyone could ever give him. Emulation is the greatest of all possible praise. The Traveler Unless we become higher than the Cherubim and the Seraphim (the highest rank of the angelic host) and become as divine as God and not men, then yes, God will be greater than we will ever be. If there are many Gods, there will become a need for a head God. There may also become rebellious Gods (Satan was the greatest of all the Archangels). We would end up with a three tier system of the rebellious, the Godly and the head God. Worship would become abolished because there will be no master and hedinism will prevail. Heaven will become the new Earth and so a new Heaven would need to be created. Those who rebelled would be cast out of the new Earth. But what would become of the unfaithful or those in the Terrestial and Tellestial kingdoms? They will become the lowest of the low, lower than the new Hell itself for that would contain the ones who were once called Gods. Woah! This would make great novel material! Basically what I am saying is that if we continue as men, we can never become Gods and if we did, a heirarchy would be natural. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. KJV 1 Cor 6:3: 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? KJV Genesis speaks of 6 days. One possible understanding is that the days are periods of time. I wasn't aware that the LDS took that as an official interpretation. Regardless, I doubt anyone will be complaining about our new residence. Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: one day is the distance between the setting and setting of the sun. I know that scientifically it is difficult to accept but this is an omnipotent God we are talking about.

But there is an answer to what the Earth is held on. It is held in the creation of God. Suspended in the vacuum of space. Held in position be centrifugal force and gravity................ But there is an answer to where God came from. God came from everywhere. He is the uncreated. Actually the idea that God "came from somewhere" is absurd. Maybe creation was created at the Creation :)

This wasn't intended as a reference to our purpose, but rather to what we have become. Through the fall of man we have become sinful. Original sin doesn't come into it, we have chosen to sin ourselves. This isn't a meant to be taken as an attack on free will. Even the angels have free will. BUT they know who their master is and they would never transgress against him....however, it has happened and there is an example of what may happen. I will ask this now. When we are in the New Jerusalem, please, please, don't rebel! That is also what a priest does in the Orthodox church. They are no higher than the congregation because of their knowledge of theology. Sometimes there may be a greater theologian in the congregation, but this is irrelevent. The Priest serves as a spiritual guide for the people and is also called to do special things that can only be done with Priesthood....like the Eucharist/Sacrament/Communium. (why so many names ) Can we please focus on what we have in common rather than disputing doctrinal differences, because there are many. One of my favourite verses from the Epistles. From the first letter of St Paul to the Corinthians. K.J.V. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. I like this picture, I also like it because it shows the presence of Jesus at the creation. John 1:5 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. This verse came to mind also.

As time was created as part of the creation, God was there before time itself. Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: God was never Created God is never Created God cannot be Created. We musn't think of everything being bound by time, for time is an Earthly thing. I believe that there is no time outside of Earth. This in turn answers the question of "is there a period of wait between death and day of judgement" and "why did Jesus say to the criminal "today you shall be in Paradise"". Jesus is part of the answer to the time question, he is God and of God, begotton, not made. I realise that I have basically paraphrased your thoughts.

I'm obviously not L.D.S. but I am not sure about the idea that the priestly robes will still be there in Heaven. We are all sinners, regardless of our status in the church. And each of us are first and foremost, the worst of all sinners, as sin cannot be measured. There will be no need for Priests in the New Jerusalem, due to the simple reason that we shall all be perfect, incorruptible and incapable of sin. We will not need a heirarchy because we will be in full communium with the Lord of Hosts, (Domine Deus Sabaoth).

Of course there are. Otherwise we would be running around naked. I thought it was quite an indepth question on shame. How we consider it to be socially acceptable to be clothed yet that form of acceptance will not be in heaven. It shall be in the end, as it was in the beginning. Actually, this is something I've never thought about before. I suppose we might be naked in Heaven. The white robes could be figurative of our distinction from the sinners, how we "washed our clothes in the blood of the lamb." (pre-fall) K.J.V. Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Of course there are. Otherwise we would be running around naked. Is that a bad thing?

There are garments in Heaven. Revelation 7:11-17 (K.J.V.) 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Everything that God created was for his pleasure. Everything from God is good. Why is it good? Because it gives him pleasure. It is true that it isn't for God's benefit, God doesn't need any benefit, he lacks nothing. I think the "God does not serve us" bit is mis-interpreted. Jesus is both the servant of the Father and of Man. As Jesus is God, part of the most holy trinity and the only begotton Son of God he is also the son of Man because he was born through Mary. Jesus serves mankind because of his perfect sacrafice, he became a victim of evil for us. A victim that brought victory over death. If it wasn't for the sending of the Son, we wouldn't be granted eternal life. However, we musn't think of serving in the sense of a king in a castle and his lowly servants, God is greater than we will ever be. The weakness of God is stronger than the strongest strength of Man. We are servants of Christ. We work by the great commission. God is not our servant BUT he became as man for man. He became incarnate of his own creation to serve his creation. What a great God we serve! As for the wishing to praise thing, of course we will want to praise God, we will be so struck with awe that it will be impossible not to. I am certain that the very moment I am in the presence of the almighty, my knees will bend before me and I will be on the floor, overwhelmed with awe. My mouth will not be able to utter the amount of praises, nor at the right magnitute for me to proclaim my praise to the almighty. I don't know if it will happen but we may also get a huge feeling of conviction of our sins and our tresspasses, though they will have passed away with our corruptible bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52) we might still bear the memory of our transgressions. I only get a taste of this on Earth, image what it will be like once the veil has been removed and we will see the father before us in the great throne room.

I love the idea of the second coming and the rapture. It is a period of celebration and joy. We will finally be with God once more. Let's just hope that we have all those that we know (and that we don't know) saved. Yes the devestation of the Earth is a scary thought but it is the closing of a very long chapter.

To be in Heaven would be to be like the Cherubim. Always praising God. We serve no other purpose and the same should be on Earth. I don't believe in Heaven as clouds and harps (I don't know who invented that idea) but I believe it to be the very place of Godliness. The place the Earth once was. The very being with God. If Hell is seperation from God, Heaven is intimacy. I believe Heaven to be as the New Jerusalem in Revelations 21, partly because I believe that to be true but also because I have had a vision that is remarkoubly similar.

I don't believe I have ever seen heaven, however, one night I prayed for a wiccan friend of mine. That very night when I went to sleep I saw myself with him. We walked up to some very very tall walls. We were let in, the gate was a single pearl (as in revelations). Once inside, the space was huge! It was fantastic. In the centre was a huge golden/red building. We walked in and inside there was a huge staircase and many fellow Christians. I took my friend through the building and across a bridge that was just out side the building. Across this bridge was a cottage like building and inside that was a wise man. I left my friend with the man and I walked back into the grand building. The staircase was built of reddish rock, like marble but also shimmered like matt gold. The steps were gold and there were thousands of them, leading upwards in a constant spiral. I climbed to the top of the staircase and there was a huge door, built of black iron like material and light was protruding from the seams. Then a voice said "enter" and the doors started to open, the light got brighter and brighter and it was then that I realised that is the throne room. I woke up before I could even see what was inside. I believe that I probably saw the New Jerusalem, however I don't want to boast because it could have just been a fantasy or a false vision. Revelations 21 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. I would like to quote the whole of Isaiah 24-26 but it would be far too long. It talks about the destruction of the Earth and prophesises the New Jerusalem. Isaiah 26 5For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low; he layeth it low, even to the ground; he bringeth it even to the dust. 6The foot shall tread it down, even the feet of the poor, and the steps of the needy. 7The way of the just is uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just. 8Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.

Jesus is God. Lord of Lords and King of Kings. The Only begotton Son. 100% divine 100% human Jesus is God among us, God with and God for us. Jesus is part of the trinity, equal with the Holy Spirit and the Father. Jesus is a great teacher, servant and master. A model of creation. Jesus is the perfect and Only sacrafice. Jesus is the reason and founder of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic church. (when I say Catholic I refer to universal...not the Roman church which shares the name). Jesus is the Son of the Ever Virgin Theotokos Mary, a Bride without Bridegroom.

You are one clever mother! :) I am almost totally baffled by your logical philosphical post . If I were to go onto the streets and preach the Gospel but then was murdered by someone of an opposing religion wouldn't that make me a martyr? If the assasins (lets call them) did not know of my motives for preaching or that I am christian it would just be murder. I think what we need is a definition of martyr.

First among equals. I don't fully understand this concept yet but I think it means that although as a man this person is no greater than anyother BUT as there is a need for some form of structure to the church there must be an eventual spiritual father which which the others commune. Obviously God is the father of the church but the Patriarch in this case is the first among equals as all humans are equal, we are all sinners, born of the race of Adam. One of the things I find so attractive about the Mormon religion is the idea of authority, wanting to get up the ladder, first it is Aaronic then Melchezadik (forgive my spelling, it is late here) and then so on. People by their nature want to be higher than other people, yet when we are possessed with humility and convicted we realise how pathetic and feeble we are. We do not deserve anything, not even Earth, not even air. If we did not serve a mercyful benevolent God we might as well be destroyed at first sin. Yes there is a need for clergy in a church otherwise it is a meeting. Yes there is a need for ordination otherwise the sacrament/eucharist cannot be shared. This doesn't mean that a Bishop is more holy than a Priest or that a Priest is more holy than a lay man, it means that different people have different vocations. There is no true heirarchy on Earth.

I believe that there is no true authority on Earth. Only apparent authority. All men are sinners. No man is higher than another. The Patriarch of the Orthodox church has the title "First among equals", not "supreme head of church" or "President of Orthodox church" but quite the opposite. To acknowledge your sin is something that we are very unwilling to do. It requires submission and humility, two things that we as humans are not used to. We prefer to fight against them in an attempt to be better than our brother.

I believe a martyr to be someone who is willing to lay down his life for Christ. Martyrdom is not accomplished through violence on the part of the martyr to be but as an act of persectution on the murderers. Did Jesus fight the Romans?

The irony is that I used a verse that I was sick of in one of my own posts. I'm not going to bicker on a forum.

Seriously Maureen - do you really suppose that I don't know what a creed is? Actually I wasn't sure how you were defining it which is why I put the definition in my post. You were obviously putting words or thoughts in Christo's post that he did not intend - hence the need to be clear. If you think that I didn't not capture Christo's intent, let me restate it to sayt that Christo does not think that accepting the Creeds is essential/important. Somehow I think that Christo would agree with my first characterization - but since he won't answer, I guess we'll never know. See, you are doing it again. A creed is paraphrasing an already biblical belief - therefore it is not outside of biblical doctrine, it is agreeing with biblical doctrine. M. Well that's one argument but I'd say it's a very poor one. The creeds state the God (the Trinity) is ontologically one being. That is not a biblical affirmation. Mormons accept what the bible says about God. We reject the Creeds. The standard of orthodoxy provided by Chalcedon says things liek inconfusedly, unchanably, indivisibly, inseperably, subsistence, etc., all non-biblical language - paraphased on not. The test of all this is if you ask someone, say like Christo, is it okay if Mormons accept teachings about God but reject the creeds (in order to be considered Christian) and the response is, no - you must also accept the creeds. At the most - the creeds are non or extra-biblical. At the least - they are a mandatory requirement of how one must interpret the bible. I would like to say that it is foolish to accept something without questioning it. To accept a creed without understanding it has the same value of not knowing it at all. Study the creed, if you do not understand something, ask your priest/vicar/pastor or other member of clergy about it. That is one of the great things about being Christian, you are allowed to question, you are even allowed to doubt. There are always people who will be willing to share wisdom with each other. When I have a question about something I will first of all discuss it with my brethren, then with the Priest, if he doesn't know (and there is very little he doesn't) he will ask other people. An unanswered question is a terrible thing. Yes, the Nicene creed is extra biblical but in another sense it isn't, it is a summary of belief. As I said earlier, Creed comes from the Greek meaning "I believe". The creed is in effect a model testimony. Guess what verse comes to mind James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Sure is funny you would come in here quoting that scripture....seems to me you became disgusted with me for quoting that very scripture to you....... Thats the irony

Seriously Maureen - do you really suppose that I don't know what a creed is? Actually I wasn't sure how you were defining it which is why I put the definition in my post. You were obviously putting words or thoughts in Christo's post that he did not intend - hence the need to be clear. If you think that I didn't not capture Christo's intent, let me restate it to sayt that Christo does not think that accepting the Creeds is essential/important. Somehow I think that Christo would agree with my first characterization - but since he won't answer, I guess we'll never know. See, you are doing it again. A creed is paraphrasing an already biblical belief - therefore it is not outside of biblical doctrine, it is agreeing with biblical doctrine. M. Well that's one argument but I'd say it's a very poor one. The creeds state the God (the Trinity) is ontologically one being. That is not a biblical affirmation. Mormons accept what the bible says about God. We reject the Creeds. The standard of orthodoxy provided by Chalcedon says things liek inconfusedly, unchanably, indivisibly, inseperably, subsistence, etc., all non-biblical language - paraphased on not. The test of all this is if you ask someone, say like Christo, is it okay if Mormons accept teachings about God but reject the creeds (in order to be considered Christian) and the response is, no - you must also accept the creeds. At the most - the creeds are non or extra-biblical. At the least - they are a mandatory requirement of how one must interpret the bible. I would like to say that it is foolish to accept something without questioning it. To accept a creed without understanding it has the same value of not knowing it at all. Study the creed, if you do not understand something, ask your priest/vicar/pastor or other member of clergy about it. That is one of the great things about being Christian, you are allowed to question, you are even allowed to doubt. There are always people who will be willing to share wisdom with each other. When I have a question about something I will first of all discuss it with my brethren, then with the Priest, if he doesn't know (and there is very little he doesn't) he will ask other people. An unanswered question is a terrible thing. Yes, the Nicene creed is extra biblical but in another sense it isn't, it is a summary of belief. As I said earlier, Creed comes from the Greek meaning "I believe". The creed is in effect a model testimony. Guess what verse comes to mind James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

K.J.V. Acts 2:18-20 Otherwise just read Revelations (I love Revelations or as it is sometimes known, "Apocalypse" :)) The end is so exciting, I feel like a child in the back of the car asking "are we there yet" The Irish Saint, Saint Malachi prophesised the last ten popes before the end. Here are the last three. It is somewhat scary how precise Malachi was. I first came across these prophecies before Benedict XVI became Pope. So according to that prophecy we have about 10 years till the end starts to happen. http://www.crystalinks.com/papalprophecies.html Mount Vesuvius is due to erupt again, this time it will cause a smoke cloud that will smother The whole of the East side of the Mediterranian including Istanbul. There will be great landslides and Tsunamis in that area. Bird flu is due to be among us, scientists reckon it will kill about 1/4 of us but I wouldn't be suprised if it is the disease that is due to kill 1/3 of all human life. There is also the volcano of Las Palmas on the island of "Gran Canaria" which when it next erupts will fall into the sea and destroy the east coast of America. K.J.V. Revelations 8:7-9My interpretation 7 = Vesuvius 8 = Las Palmas 9 = great wave of destruction.

It is foolish for a man to tell when the end is. The end will come when we are not expecting it, "like a theif in the night". I would have assumed the end would have come shortly after Jesus left but obviously it didn't (otherwise we wouldn't be here). Lets always be prepared but not assumptious.