Obadiah

You got that right buddy.This subject is a bit of hot button for me. The beauty of the Plan of Salvation is sometimes obfuscated by our insecurities. I participate in a famous RCC forum where many times the concern is wrapped in the Philosophy of the past, a philosophy wrapped in the jargon of a pagan (Aristotle). While such discussions are fascinating endeavors, the consequences ontologically are devastating. The Church has displayed remarkable discipline by avoiding such verbal entanglements in favor of the policy of sticking to revealed word. Often I have found Church members allow themselves to get pulled into such concerns. Three main points: 1. A testimony of the Saving sacrifice of the savior is the paramount need in our life. 2. The Lord will forgive us to the full measure of our creation. What is the difference between Jesus and us? His perfect obedience to the Father in all things; the full measure of his being is to be the Creator of all and savior of the world. 3. The forgiveness of the Lord will not be sullied by our insecurities. I to have concerns about my worthiness, but accept the Lord will 'have my back'. Thanks again.

and It is my understanding the scripture is to be read from these perspectives. I would add the complexity of the Lord's task is beyond our comprehension. What is our understanding of what it means to exist? This is not a trite philosophical question but is at the heart of this matter. Back in the 1940s an apostle did something for which he was excommunicated. Over a period of years he was able to return to full fellowship in the Church. Let isolate those times into two blocks and a series of propositions. 1. What if he died before he committed the act for which he was excommunicated and this hypothetical apostle would not have sinned and not repented had he lived? 2. We know the apostle sinned. His error was gross enough the Lord wiped his name from the scroll. Yet, at some point in our time, the apostles repentence was sufficient to the end and the Lord was willing to accept him back into the fold. What if the apostle had died just a fraction of a second before his repentance was complete? We know these circumstances occur because the spirit 'prison' exists to 'process' individuals who did not get to fully repent. In the first instance, would he have dodged a bullet? He had lived the life of a person in full fellowship and approval, but if he had lived he would not and would have been cast out forever. Is there anything inherently different about the sinner who died before he could commit that 'final' sin? No. He is still the same person. In the second case, did his premature death prevent him repenting and recovering his lost standing? In terms of the infinite, what was substantially different about this individual between the two moments in time between when he was 'lost' and when he 'would have' been saved? What did existence mean to this man? This question is the basis for the Protestant rational behind the 'once-saved-always-saved' doctrine. Let us step back from this question a little. The Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, page 322 gives a fascinating application of time in terms of Einstein's theories of relativity (addressing D&C 130). We also read that it is given unto man (section 121) time according to his works. Theoretical Physicists agree that mathematically it is possible that all possible events happen simultaneously. They hypothesize the existence of Multiverse's in which each of us exists going down slightly different paths created by mathematical anomalies. My point is not to suggest this is the way 'reality' really works, but to say the Plan of Salvation in its entirety is, as Jesus taught both in all the Standard Works, vastly different from the 'milk' of the gospel as we know it. Remember, Joseph Smith told Brigham Young he could tell him gospel truths that would drive him away from the Church (Brigham Young told him 'then don't tell me'). I suspect we are revealed enough to accomplish our work here on Earth, not to complicate the work. In terms of the individual judgment relative to the question posed by this thread, we do not know the complete history or circumstances under which the judgment will occur. It is my opinion the Lord is infinitly more forgiving than what we infer from scripture. One more point. It is taught that all creatures will rise to the fullness of the measure of their creation. The Brothers and Sisters who go to the other Kingdoms of Glory go there because that is where they will be happiest, where they fit, and they will recognize this and be ok with it. These are all 'Glories' of our Heavenly Father. He will never send someone to a Heaven for which a person is unfit. Finally, I would respectfully disagree with you here. As you said, the 'unpardonable sin' is a violation of the Holy Spirit when faith has developed and been replaced by a sure knowledge of the plan of salvation. Very very very few people have a sure knowledge of God. While condemned is used in scripture, I think it should be understood in terms I have described previously. The Lord will not punish us for all eternity for an error of a mere moment in time. He will, however, create a mansion in his Heaven where we will be able to grow into the full measure of our creation.

What do you think is meant by "spoken unto the Jews, ... even from the beginning"? To wit, many of the prophets in the Bible were not Jews (Abraham being a prime example, being the grandfather of Judah). I have often thought this was a great 'anti-' verse, except the anti-s don't understand the concept of pre-Israelite, Israelite, Jew, and other tribes, so the subtle nuance would be lost.

I think the response is situational. I think one should let the Spirit guide you as to the course of action to take in any talk dealing with the gospel. Sure, many times, maybe even most of the time you will 'feel' the correct action is to smile and say, 'bless your soul' and walk. But there may be times when confrontation is expected and demanded by God. It is sometimes our responsibility to call a Korihor out by his name. Other times, the Spirit may grasp the 'anti' by the scruff of the neck and help bring about a conversion.